De Please Consider: Vote Kick Will Be Abused

[liavalenth]

@Tsukinoki

We have no idea what they will do for the kick system, they said very little. I hope they paid attention to the merriads of threads on the topic, who mostly agree with you that one that can be started for any reason will be bad. However, I am just a proponent of wait and see. With most games that can be a bad idea, but DE does listen and reverses bad decisions.

Much like the grappling hook, we will see what DE brings.

Edited July 18, 2013 by liavalenth

[pdxdubin]

I don't think we need it either. I've played a LOT. Over 250 hours and probably only encountered one or two leechers. As for griefing? I don't think I've ever seen anyone griefing, except if you consider Vaubans putting Bounce in front of you at the end of the mission griefing. Vote kicking may or may not be abused but I don't think it's necessary.

 

I like to hide nova portals behind closing doors, To surprise people when they run through them, 

To have to be teleported 100 yards backwards. 

 

Nova is king. 

[Ronin666]

@Tsukinoki

With most games that can be a bad idea, but DE does listen and reverses bad decisions.

 

Double work for them, and turmoil for the community if they implement a vote-kick system.

 

Implement the black-list, and be done with it. Most other MMOs have a blacklist, and works for them.

 

What if the host gets kicked, and you're left with a crappy host?

 

Vote-kick systems do not work, whether formal or informal.

[Boomstick720]

Ffs you'd' think that trolls were 90% of the community based on how much this idea is being shat on.

 

Speaking as a guy who has played another 4 player co-op game (L4D2) for well over 300 hours, I have only seen votekick used for three reasons.

 

1. One player is ungodly awful/ way out of their league.

 

2. One player is AFK

 

3. One player is trolling.

 

I have literally NEVER seen a team of trolls gang up on someone to kick them immediately.  The closest I've ever seen is joining a game where everyone knows each other, and then being asked to leave because I'm taking up room for a fourth friend.

 

That is it.

 

In over 300 hours of gameplay.

 

So I fail to see how this claim that you'll suddenly have troll teams springing out of holes in the ground to vote kick everyone to death is substantiated by any real evidence, other than assuming that the community is 90% trolls (which I would hardly call evidence).

[Carcharias]

Speaking as a guy who has played another 4 player co-op game (L4D2) for well over 300 hours, I have only seen votekick used for three reasons.

 

I have literally NEVER seen a team of trolls gang up on someone to kick them immediately.  The closest I've ever seen is joining a game where everyone knows each other, and then being asked to leave because I'm taking up room for a fourth friend.

 

That is it.

 

In over 300 hours of gameplay.

 

Ok well I played WOW for thousands of hours and I have over 700 in Rift. I have seen vote to kick abused. Time and time again. Because of class, because of play, because of not enough dps, because of noob and ect ect. And those were in five player groups. It's not worth the risk when a blacklist would work just fine. Like you say the majority of players in this game are not trolls. So there should be no need for something as powerful as a kick system.

[Tsukinoki]

@Boomstick720
if this community is not so full of trolls then we dont need to give a vote kick system which does get abused in all games that it has been implemented in, and we will be fine with a blacklist.

Otherwise why give everyone the option to be $&*^s and start votes to kick people for frivolous reasons?  Such as not liking Mag or Vauban and just auto banning all of those frames, or like sitting on mercury auto banning all new players.

Vote kicking DOES get abused wherever its implemented, so lets not give them a chance to abuse it and instead just use a blacklist.

[Ronin666]

Ffs you'd' think that trolls were 90% of the community based on how much this idea is being shat on.

Speaking as a guy who has played another 4 player co-op game (L4D2) for well over 300 hours, I have only seen votekick used for three reasons.

 

1. One player is ungodly awful/ way out of their league.

 

2. One player is AFK

 

3. One player is trolling.

 

I have literally NEVER seen a team of trolls gang up on someone to kick them immediately.  The closest I've ever seen is joining a game where everyone knows each other, and then being asked to leave because I'm taking up room for a fourth friend.

 

That is it.

 

In over 300 hours of gameplay.

So I fail to see how this claim that you'll suddenly have troll teams springing out of holes in the ground to vote kick everyone to death is substantiated by any real evidence, other than assuming that the community is 90% trolls (which I would hardly call evidence).

 

1) We're saying that blacklist is a BETTER option/system than vote-kicking.

 

2) Trolls aren't born, they're made.  All it takes is someone who had a bad day at the office.

 

3) Try out a MOBA or two, and you'll come across various voting systems that are abused till kingdom come.

 

4) Hours of gameplay is impressive, but more important and relevant is whom you played with, no offence. Friends, family, small group of adults. Pugs/pubs are where the harm will be done imo. Strangers will be fine with getting away with murder.

 

 

 

Ok well I played WOW for thousands of hours and I have over 700 in Rift. I have seen vote to kick abused. Time and time again. Because of class, because of play, because of not enough dps, because of noob and ect ect. And those were in five player groups. It's not worth the risk when a blacklist would work just fine. Like you say the majority of players in this game are not trolls. So there should be no need for something as powerful as a kick system.

 

Exactly this.

 

Irrespective of the hours (no offence intended), it doesn't matter what genre is played, any vote-kicking/reporting system is lame

[Boomstick720]

So Warframe is a MOBA now?

 

Funny, I thought it was a co-op ninja shooter game, and not LoL or DotA.

[Baigan]

Those are technical issues with Host Migrations that need to be solved anyway.  As far as I can tell, the Majority of Host Migration problems are limited to situations where the host migrates to someone other then you.  Since kicked players will always be the host, that should be a non-issue.

 

 Pretty much this.

 

I shudder to think the ones advocating against it are actually trying to cover some sort of hidden agenda. Seriously, I've met a fair share of griefers so far, and the opposite of this discussion just seems just about as unfair.

 

Vaubans who keep spamming vortex, Frosts that Snow Globe spawn points, at one point I had a Loki grab the intel at the start of Kappa, perch in a high place and simply go afk.

 

This isn't even about the warframes as much as it is as there are possible trolls on both sides. A Volt kept joining nightmare runs and going afk, and timed mode runs never ended cuz he ain't budging. People who spawn camp in defenses, who don't stay near the console in mobile defense, HELL, if you happen to run an assassination, and a single other player joins and goes afk and you happen to come across a double switch door you are BONED, no matter if you killed everything so far.

 

You are complaining about people vote kicking but you fail to notice that those may be justified. A lack of votekick options opens large breech for griefing.

 

A blacklist may be better? Sure, but from a logistics standpoint it isn't on the table atm. I'd rather see this solution be implemented, even if temporarily until, and if, they work the blacklist mechanics out.

[fatpig84]

A properly made black list would be better.

[chanw4]

So Warframe is a MOBA now?

 

Funny, I thought it was a co-op ninja shooter game, and not LoL or DotA.

 

 

This excuse is pretty weak considering we are talking about the vote kick system, not about the genre of the game. Vote kick have been and will abused. why use a easily exploted and abused system when a blacklist works just fine? 

[Boomstick720]

This excuse is pretty weak considering we are talking about the vote kick system, not about the genre of the game. Vote kick have been and will abused. why use a easily exploted and abused system when a blacklist works just fine? 

The point that I was attempting to make is that the only cases where people have stated that vote kicking has been abused to hell and back is with these MOBAs.  Since I have had plenty of experience in other non-MOBA 4 player co-op games, and have not seen vote kicking as a large problem, we can safely assume that either...

 

A. Warframe is a MOBA, and therefore implementing vote kicking will be a problem in the future.

 

or

 

B. Warframe is not a MOBA, and therefore implementing a votekick will not be a problem.

[Tsukinoki]

@Boomstick720
That's rather funny because I've been in a lot of non-moba games that have vote kicks and in all games they are abused to hell and back for the smallest reasons.

And please stop with the false premises that only MOBAs have vote kicks abused when I have seen it abused over and over again in tons of games where they have it, both RPG, TPS, FPS and more.

it does NOT need to be a moba to have vote kick abused.

The FACT is that Vote kicking will be abused more often than it is used properly.

A blacklist CANT be abused and would be better for the community.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[chanw4]

The point that I was attempting to make is that the only cases where people have stated that vote kicking has been abused to hell and back is with these MOBAs.  Since I have had plenty of experience in other non-MOBA 4 player co-op games, and have not seen vote kicking as a large problem, we can safely assume that either...

 

A. Warframe is a MOBA, and therefore implementing vote kicking will be a problem in the future.

 

or

 

B. Warframe is not a MOBA, and therefore implementing a votekick will not be a problem.

 

This is a fallacy.

[Boomstick720]

@Boomstick720

That's rather funny because I've been in a lot of non-moba games that have vote kicks and in all games they are abused to hell and back for the smallest reasons.

And please stop with the false premises.

it does NOT need to be a moba to have vote kick abused.

The FACT is that Vote kicking will be abused more often than it is used properly.

A blacklist CANT be abused and would be better for the community.

Please name some then.  When you say "other games" it makes it sound like you are just spouting off bullS#&$.

 

And like hell a blacklist can't be abused.  

 

It hinges off the basis that you will be willing to endure any amount of trolling, as long it is only done by one person at a time.

 

Oh and as someone stated before, not everyone is naturally a troll.  If someone has a bad day and decides to take it out on random people through trolling, it kind of seems a bit.... harsh to permanently ban them from everything.

 

I would be interested in how this would pan out with very large clans as well.  Would you simply not be able to join a clan if someone blacklisted you in it?  Would players know if you've been blacklisted by other people?  Is having one bad day enough to forever destroy any "reputation" you may have in the game?  

 

The point is, for all the talk of the perfection of blacklisting, it sure has a lot of flaws easily exploited by trolls.

 

And as a personal pet peeve of mine, for God's sake man use the quote button.  It makes it much easier to see what you are talking about when you reference a specific post.

 

 

This is a fallacy.

It is a generalization based of off personal experience, as is your argument that MOBAs have an issue with vote kicking, so Warframe will have it as well.  I have played many non-MOBA games where it was never an issue, and clearly others have played many MOBAs where it is.

 

I cannot say that there is no way vote kicking will become an issue, but based on the genre of game, I'm far more inclined to say such a change will have marginally negative effects.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Left 4 Dead 2, to name a big one. I've seen games where people were vote kicked just for picking the character another person wanted to play. There are videos of people trying to join random games in that and just getting votekick after vote kick for no reason. Creating an argument out of poor logic stating that mobas are the only games with votekick issues is not the way to go, man.

 

And you don't seem to understand how a blacklist works, like at all.

[Boomstick720]

Alright how much have you personally played L4D2?  Because I have never seen anyone getting kicked for no reason apart from the ones I detailed in my post about a page back.

 

And perhaps you should enlighten me on the all powerful blacklist, since I, the pleb, clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Ronin666]

So Warframe is a MOBA now?

 

Funny, I thought it was a co-op ninja shooter game, and not LoL or DotA.

 

Not at all, I'm just saying that you seem to not know about voting systems across a multitude of genres, MOBAs being one of them.

 

Voting systems are never a good idea across any genre, whether MOBA, MMO, MMORPG, or FPS co-op ninja shooter game irltbhbbqimo.

In summary, I gave you an example about a worst case scenario of an online game. 

 

However, if you want to discuss semantics and continue with pedantry, go ahead.

 

Trust things are clear to you now.

[Boomstick720]

Not at all, I'm just saying that you seem to not know about voting systems across a multitude of genres, MOBAs being one of them.

 

Voting systems are never a good idea across any genre, whether MOBA, MMO, MMORPG, or FPS co-op ninja shooter game irltbhbbqimo.

In summary, I gave you an example about a worst case scenario of an online game. 

 

However, if you want to discuss semantics and continue with pedantry, go ahead.

 

Trust things are clear to you now.

If I understand correctly, it seems that your reason for not implementing a vote kick system is because of a worst case scenario, rather than a most likely scenario.  I've given my personal experience in the department, and have illustrated that my personal experience differs from the apparent commonality of this problem in MOBAs.  It is the only genre in which I truly have very little to no experience in, so I really cannot make my own judgments on it.  However, I have played all the other genres extensively, and through my experience, I have determined that vote kicking trolling is not an issue.

 

However, if you want to discuss generalities and continue with pettiness, go ahead.

 

I trust things make more sense here.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Alright how much have you personally played L4D2?  Because I have never seen anyone getting kicked for no reason apart from the ones I detailed in my post about a page back.

 

And perhaps you should enlighten me on the all powerful blacklist, since I, the pleb, clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

Enough to know the votekick is obnoxious. It's pretty bad in TF2, too. Any game on steam with a votekick is awful about it really.

 

As for a blacklist, its easy. Someone's an A****** in game and you don't want to play with them anymore? You put them on your blacklist and you won't get grouped with them. It doesn't "permanently ban them from everything" it just keeps people you don't like from joining your games, and you from joining people you don't like. If enough people have you black listed that you can't find any games anymore, then maybe you shouldn't be a giant A******. The game already has an ignore function for the chat, it's just a gameplay extension of that basically.

[Weird_Stealth]

Alright how much have you personally played L4D2?  Because I have never seen anyone getting kicked for no reason apart from the ones I detailed in my post about a page back.

 

And perhaps you should enlighten me on the all powerful blacklist, since I, the pleb, clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

I have, have I seen as much vote kick abuse as some games I've been in like Mass Effect, but I have seen a few, and often times it's because a friend jumped on. I've seen this in Halo, Crysis, I think Dead island. 

 

It doesn't matter the genre of the game, it's the player base, and I can already tell you based off of the hate toward some of the frames. Vote kick will be abused by those who strongly dislike certain warframes because of how people use them.

 

I don't mind vote to kick for AFK players, but in general, I do not want to see it in game without some major limitations.

I mostly want a black list, that way, if people don't like players of certain warframes, then black list any player with that warframe then.

I much rather players be forced to play with the people they think are going to be trolls based off of their warframes and finding out that they're not.

[LazyKnight]

They need something for afk people that join a mission then never move. If the only do afk check and if the player meet certain conditions(like not killing things or changing cells for 3 minutes) give the other players an option. If they never add a vote kick option fine by me but there should be something that lets you do something about afk people. There is no way to get rid of griefers without making more and kick options that can be selected at will always be abused.

Edited July 20, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Ronin666]

If I understand correctly, it seems that your reason for not implementing a vote kick system is because of a worst case scenario, rather than a most likely scenario.  I've given my personal experience in the department, and have illustrated that my personal experience differs from the apparent commonality of this problem in MOBAs.  It is the only genre in which I truly have very little to no experience in, so I really cannot make my own judgments on it.  However, I have played all the other genres extensively, and through my experience, I have determined that vote kicking trolling is not an issue.

 

However, if you want to discuss generalities and continue with pettiness, go ahead.

 

I trust things make more sense here.

 

Reason? No. 

Example? Yes

 

Continue with your pedantry.

[Boomstick720]

Enough to know the votekick is obnoxious. It's pretty bad in TF2, too. Any game on steam with a votekick is awful about it really.

 

As for a blacklist, its easy. Someone's an A****** in game and you don't want to play with them anymore? You put them on your blacklist and you won't get grouped with them. It doesn't "permanently ban them from everything" it just keeps people you don't like from joining your games, and you from joining people you don't like. If enough people have you black listed that you can't find any games anymore, then maybe you shouldn't be a giant A******. The game already has an ignore function for the chat, it's just a gameplay extension of that basically.

I believe that we have extremely different definitions of votekicking being an issue.  

 

I only consider it an issue when it is a consistent problem that has prevented me from playing the game at many points.

 

From what I can tell, it would appear vote kicking is supposedly an issue for you if it happens once in a while without good reason.

 

As for the blacklist, it doesn't really answer my question about the concept of "what are the effects of blacklisting someone".  In other words, should you assume that everyone who has trolled you once will troll you forever?  Again, its not an issue if its one person, but if you blacklisting like 50 people, how do you determine "cutting off communication"?  What if a blacklisted person is in your dojo, can you not join when he is in it?  If I understand correctly, it hinges on the fact that it basically prevents you from playing with the blacklisted person.  Therefore, as I understand it, a blacklist system does rely on people being consistently bad/ trolls/ etc.

 

I suppose my point is that if you are really against vote kick, which is something I don't understand from personal experience, I don't understand how blacklist is that much better, because it doesn't seem to work immediately, and only really excels if people are consistent.

[Boomstick720]

Reason? No. 

Example? Yes

 

Continue with your pedantry.

I'd be glad to, but unfortunately, I can't be forced to have people butthurt over differing opinions all night.

 

So I'll probably have to step out here.  I've said my part, and clearly people are having a hard time dealing with it.  Perhaps I can be condescending at worst, but at least I'm not alone~