Question For The F2P'ers, From A Grandmaster

[LeucienWeaver]

No no no no no no no no no and no.

 

Elite status needs its perks. Otherwise how else are we separated from the common peon?

Can't tell if troll or backhanded approval. If the former, please leave, I want to keep this as constructive and positive as possible. If the latter, i'm glad to have your support, I just wish you hadn't done it so abrasively. Believe me when I say that not all Dev Councillors view themselves as gods among men.

[BloodKitten]

i say, if i cant have a vote, i dont want to even see the options.

just make sure the PvP freaks have thier vote rights removed.

[Phatose]

To each their own on opinions, Phatose. You are set in your ways and I am, in mine. To pursue the topic in this vein further would spark debate on topics that are out of our hand to begin with. To me, Early Information is a useless perk to have, since it's stuff that can, will, and most definitely be seen, leaked onto the internet through other social media. To you, it's a sign of exclusivity that you feel privileged to have, and that it's your right to not have to go elsewhere to discuss the ideas, and that's fine, we all are obligated to our own ideals.

 

If it's not a perk and it's useless, why give it out?  It would be pointless.  If you're certain it's going to be leaked anyway, why concern yourself with this at all?  It can only accomplish something you think is certain to happen anyway.

 

I am genuinely puzzled.  Given your stances on these things, what can this possibly accomplish?

[Gigatron-Prime]

If I wasn't clear enough, I abhor the idea of making the elite status less meaningful. I prefer the separation between the greater and the lesser. 

 

Just like in life, you have the high class and the lower class.

[LeucienWeaver]

i say, if i cant have a vote, i dont want to even see the options.

just make sure the PvP freaks have thier vote rights removed.

Which is fine, Blood. But tell me this; If you could earn the right to vote, be it through community help, or game time, would you strive to achieve that? Such drive would easily help people find reason to progress in game or in the forums, and would help the community grow as a whole.

As for pvp freaks... They're entitled to their opinions, but I would greatly prefer that the game stay almost entirely PVE oriented.

[BloodKitten]

If I wasn't clear enough, I abhor the idea of making the elite status less meaningful. I prefer the separation between the greater and the lesser. 

 

Just like in life, you have the high class and the lower class.

and in real life, the high class should take a kick to the face and get robbed.

[BloodKitten]

Which is fine, Blood. But tell me this; If you could earn the right to vote, be it through community help, or game time, would you strive to achieve that? Such drive would easily help people find reason to progress in game or in the forums, and would help the community grow as a whole.

As for pvp freaks... They're entitled to their opinions, but I would greatly prefer that the game stay almost entirely PVE oriented.

if we get the right to view and vote after few weeks of gameplay then it would be intresting, keep the vote rights to people who actually find intrest in the game.

[TechRebel]

I don't know if this was aimed at me, but I do think that if either viewership of, or voting on, future content, were on the table for F2P'ers, I'd sooner pick the former than the latter. Though I'm sure we all acknowledge either of the two rest on thin ice, which I can respect. I'm in no way adamant on the matter, personally speaking.

 

Don't worry it's not aimed at anyone in particular just my own thoughts on the matter in the interest of further discussion :) 

[LeucienWeaver]

If it's not a perk and it's useless, why give it out?  It would be pointless.  If you're certain it's going to be leaked anyway, why concern yourself with this at all?  It can only accomplish something you think is certain to happen anyway.

 

I am genuinely puzzled.  Given your stances on these things, what can this possibly accomplish?

Why concern myself? Because I don't like the idea of information that is public knowledge to a group of people because they are more 'privileged'. Call me &#! backwards, but I like the idea of equal access to information, regardless of whether you care for it or not. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to find out what's happening in the world politically, fiscally, or emotionally, so why should you on a smaller scale, like this game?

Edit: To clarify, I understand that ALL knowledge shouldn't be available. I'm pointing out that if you're willing to share information to one group in a society, share it to everyone in that society.

Edited July 19, 2013 by LeucienWeaver

[LeucienWeaver]

Don't worry it's not aimed at anyone in particular just my own thoughts on the matter in the interest of further discussion :)

Can't find the f2p vs p2p privilege/hard work post that he quoted, so i'm quoting this. The implication you're going at is that hard work and interest in development is only a monetary factor, which hurts on a few levels, as that's not the only factor that matters. Yes, Fiscal stability is incredibly important, and should be a priority, but it is not the End All Be All of the topic. I've seen people clock up thousands of constructive posts here, but can't pay due to low income reasons, or other possibilities. They should be entitled to /something/ for their hard work, which according to your post, amounts to Nil in the regard of development.

[Phatose]

Why concern myself? Because I don't like the idea of information that is public knowledge to a group of people because they are more 'privileged'. Call me &#! backwards, but I like the idea of equal access to information, regardless of whether you care for it or not. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to find out what's happening in the world politically, fiscally, or emotionally, so why should you on a smaller scale, like this game?

 

So, should DE post their source code as well, because that information shouldn't be limited the those who are privileged?  How far does this "equal access to information" actually go?

Edited July 19, 2013 by Phatose

[LeucienWeaver]

If I wasn't clear enough, I abhor the idea of making the elite status less meaningful. I prefer the separation between the greater and the lesser. 

 

Just like in life, you have the high class and the lower class.

I'm on the high end of middle class fiscally and career wise, with potential to be in the High class for both. Do I view myself as superior to the ones who are of a lower tax bracket than I? No, because we've all got one life to live. We're all flesh, and pink on the inside.

From the looks of things, Gigatron Prime is your (Quite obviously) alt account that you use to spread propaganda and ideas that you're too afraid to voice on your main account, which confuses me quite thoroughly. If you're so concerned with appearances and societal status...Why are you only a Disciple on that account? If you're so high class, why not throw more money at your screen?

Again, please leave. I would like to keep this constructive and positive.

[LeucienWeaver]

So, should DE post their source code as well, because that information shouldn't be limited the those who are privileged?  How far does this "equal access to information" actually go?

Read the edit. They aren't sharing their source code with Dev Council, they're sharing screenshots, opinions, polls. Things they obviously want people to see. So, why not go for more publicity and show it to everyone? It might push someone to go to Master so that they can vote or speak their mind.

[MageMeat]

I agree with this post.The design council should still keep its role in making some decisions for the rest of us, but every player should be alerted to their business.

[Inferno_Hamster]

I see stuff like "if people are so concerned about the game's future, distant or near, I don't see a reason why they can't access that material from the game site" and from that I could argue that if they are so concerned about the game's future they should probably be supporting the devs and would in turn also be in the design council. I am not there yet personally as I am not one of the "rich kids" mentioned earlier but I do intend to upgrade to that level at some point, and that's the nice thing you can start at the base level and work your way to design council.

 

As far as F2P'ers having access to it being able to vote etc, the developers work hard, the design council is kind of a reward/perk for acknowledging that hard work with our own hard earned money. Why you feel that someone who has no interest in supporting the further development of the game should have a say in what that development is I guess I just don't get.

 

Probably because I am a software developer and know just how much work goes into a project like this. How much home time is given up, the 16+ hour days wracking your brain on how to solve this problem or that, coming up with countless algorithms and functions to accomplish all the aspects of the game. Let alone reproducing, tracking down, and fixing bugs. If it's an issue of well I don't have any extra money or at the least that much at the moment, like I said you can upgrade a tier at a time.

 

If however it's more of an "well it's f2p, paying is optional so why should I" type of deal then the price you pay is having no vote in new content. As far as being able to see what's coming up I guess I can understand that, but like you said for those that really want to know they can find it.

 

DE wants to keep an element of secrecy however small to new content though. It's more exciting when it's revealed/released that way at least what's how I have seen it from how they are in what they post as well as live streams.

 

Well said!  

[TechRebel]

Can't find the f2p vs p2p privilege/hard work post that he quoted, so i'm quoting this. The implication you're going at is that hard work and interest in development is only a monetary factor, which hurts on a few levels, as that's not the only factor that matters. Yes, Fiscal stability is incredibly important, and should be a priority, but it is not the End All Be All of the topic. I've seen people clock up thousands of constructive posts here, but can't pay due to low income reasons, or other possibilities. They should be entitled to /something/ for their hard work, which according to your post, amounts to Nil in the regard of development.

 

So the fact that they get to play the game completely free thanks to those that can and do pay isn't enough huh? They have to have it all or nothing? 

[LeucienWeaver]

I agree with this post.The design council should still keep its role in making some decisions for the rest of us, but every player should be alerted to their business.

Thank you for your support, Mage! Any suggestions as far as ideas go?

[LeucienWeaver]

So the fact that they get to play the game completely free thanks to those that can and do pay isn't enough huh? They have to have it all or nothing?

You're the one who said all or nothing in regards to dev council. It's either pay or your voice is unheard(In relation to dev council topics), according to you. As to playing completely free, who says they are? What's not to say that they aren't dropping 5$ into the game from time to time? What's not to say that they want to remain anonymous as far as contributions go, and don't buy Founder?

[TechRebel]

Your question was specifically regarding f2pers or did you forget already.

 

If however you want to change it now that's cool, say for instance you spend X amount of dollars on the game but are not interested in a founder package but want to see what's going on sure thing I could understand that, with whatever tier founders being still the only group able to vote on the content etc.

 

True f2pers though (of which I personally know quite a few, and they don't keep it free because they have not money either not to say all are that way). For them being able to play for free is enough of a perk imo

Edited July 19, 2013 by TechRebel

[LeucienWeaver]

Your question was specifically regarding f2pers or did you forget already.

Which I had amended somewhere in the middle to say 'It was meant to address the non M/GM community as a whole, and was poorly worded'; Or did you skip over that post in an effort to valiantly strike up an argument?

[TechRebel]

Which I had amended somewhere in the middle to say 'It was meant to address the non M/GM community as a whole, and was poorly worded'; Or did you skip over that post in an effort to valiantly strike up an argument?

 

See my above edit. I don't skip over things to make things sound more in my favor although in long topics I do miss things occasionally, most often followed by an edit.

[Parinirvana]

To each their own on opinions, Phatose. You are set in your ways and I am, in mine. To pursue the topic in this vein further would spark debate on topics that are out of our hand to begin with. To me, Early Information is a useless perk to have, since it's stuff that can, will, and most definitely be seen, leaked onto the internet through other social media. To you, it's a sign of exclusivity that you feel privileged to have, and that it's your right to not have to go elsewhere to discuss the ideas, and that's fine, we all are obligated to our own ideals.

So you're saying that if anyone disagree with you, you will ignore their arguments, and only accept people who think the same as you are? You are so biased dude. Just because you are one of the Grand Masters doesn't mean you can put yourself into the spotlight of trying to be benevolent and all of that... If you support the beta phase of a game you have a certain right that others don't have. Sure maybe you don't care about that, but I do. I don't want anyone to screw the game up, I rather believe in statistics and evidence than your so-called trust.

Honestly, all I see is you on your high horse shooting down any opinions against your idea with your university vocabularies. Please, I am on the same level as you are, so I can say you're just bullS#&$.

[TechRebel]

No need to get hostile, this should remain a friendly discussion not turn into a flamewar

[LeucienWeaver]

See my above edit. I don't skip over things to make things sound more in my favor although in long topics I do miss things occasionally, most often followed by an edit.

Quoting this post to save on postcount. Your edit is agreeable for the first portion, and know that I would change the title of the thread if I could to something more appropriate, such as 'A question for Non-M/GM players, from a GM', but I can't. The most I can do is apologize for people being misinformed as to the direction of my post; I was half asleep at the time of its creation, and it led to poor wordchoices.

For the second half of that point, we are all entitled to our own opinions, and in the end it is DE who makes the overarching decision as to what happens and what doesn't. Personally i've done everything I can to bring people into the game and get them to donate, and almost all of the ones I had brought in were passionate enough to drop at least 20-50$ on the game, though not all of them did Founder packages.

As for them being able to play being perk enough, I see that as a mixed bag. On one hand, if they just play and don't care about the game, then yes, that is good enough of a perk for them. But for those that are passionate about the game (The ones that would pay if they could, and they make it glaringly obvious due to how thrilled they are about the game) but can't manage it due to limited funding... Something should be given to them, at least.

Edit: My apologies for being aggressive; Outside-of-post aggravation bled through and it came out on you.

Edited July 19, 2013 by LeucienWeaver

[Phatose]

Lucien....

 

If you think some information should be given to them....give it to them.  You have it.  Post it.

If you think their ideas are good, repost them in the design council.

 

You already have the tools to do it yourself.  Why make somebody else do it if you're the one who wants it done?