How To Make The Game Harder Without It Being Unfair To New Players

[Aspari]

For Grineer/Corpus

Step 1: Reduce the amount of enemies that can be on-screen for non-defensive missions.

Step 2: Make each enemy a badass in some way. Make them extremely intelligent and give them more options to fight the Tenno other than shoot them while standing still or in cover. Basically just allow the enemies to use the environment against the Tenno actively, shooting at explosive barrels when given the opportunity, cracking windows in an attempt to get the Tenno to be sucked out into space. Also don't make them stand still like a moron so they can be shot (looking at you heavy units.)

Step 3: Give the enemies some sort of agility in combat like an evasive roll. Right now enemies are just braindead aimbotters.

For Grineer/Corpus/Infested

Step 4: Delete enemy armor scaling.

 

 

I want to make a point that throwing more enemies at us than the engine can sometimes handle is NOT FUN. It may be difficult, but not in a good way. Same thing with making the enemies more tanky as the levels get higher. You know what's difficult and fun at the same time? Intelligent enemies. With all due respect, Warframe's enemies are stupid as Hek.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Aspari

[Lady_Khaos]

Amen.

[DarkWraithArtorias]

This guy...I totally agree with your points good sir, especially with the Armor

[Aizeol]

I agree with your idea, sir. Difficulty is nice, but new players shouldn't feel discouraged.

I will say that I'm a little hesitant to agree with all of your proposals. Your middle points that deal with giving the enemy more options with how to deal with players are fine, but the first and last are the two I find myself unable to encourage. Having the beginning areas filled more with new enemies that are less of a threat while giving existing enemies more elite abilities would help more in my view. This way a new player can feel like a badass for taking out so many enemies, but only a few will be a serious challenge.

As far as armor goes, I'd rather have armor actually be armor and what we call armor now be renamed "damage resistance". I made a post about this earlier, but essentially armor in the game effectively negates damage, but only works for specific part of the body that is covered by armor. This would make Grineer much more menacing since they would be nearly invulnerable from the front. But any headshot or shot to the back only be reduced by maybe 20% at most.

Again, just my two cents. You're getting a +1 regardless.

[Lady_Khaos]

I agree with your idea, sir. Difficulty is nice, but new players shouldn't feel discouraged.

I will say that I'm a little hesitant to agree with all of your proposals. Your middle points that deal with giving the enemy more options with how to deal with players are fine, but the first and last are the two I find myself unable to encourage. Having the beginning areas filled more with new enemies that are less of a threat while giving existing enemies more elite abilities would help more in my view. This way a new player can feel like a badass for taking out so many enemies, but only a few will be a serious challenge.

As far as armor goes, I'd rather have armor actually be armor and what we call armor now be renamed "damage resistance". I made a post about this earlier, but essentially armor in the game effectively negates damage, but only works for specific part of the body that is covered by armor. This would make Grineer much more menacing since they would be nearly invulnerable from the front. But any headshot or shot to the back only be reduced by maybe 20% at most.

Again, just my two cents. You're getting a +1 regardless.

 

I think he means to nerf armor in the way that it scales with level, eventually reaching the point where the majority of weapons are useless (essentially anything without armor ignore)

[BeefyScar]

+1

i agree armor scaling per level is pretty bad but i think having different resist value on the body part is fun. 

although ancients currently lost the boots and makes aiming for the limbs bit more annoying.

( i want them boots back)

 

as for the glass break, would be great if they say a line before they try to break it, so we can try to prevent it from happening. otherwise it would just create player grieving from being constantly locked down.

just a example, grineer: "Pull back, locking down" and about 2~3 sec later he shoots the windows.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Byfe

[Lady_Khaos]

+1

i agree armor scaling per level is pretty bad but i think having different resist value on the body part is fun. 

although ancients currently lost the boots and makes aiming for the limbs bit more annoying.

( i want them boots back)

 

as for the glass break, would be great if they say a line before they try to break it, so we can try to prevent it from happening. otherwise it would just create player grieving from being constantly locked down.

just a example, grineer: "Pull back, locking down" and about 2~3 sec later he shoots the windows.

 

Maybe singe they removed the boot they could relocate the weak point to the big fan thing on their backs?

 

Also, that'd be cool. Too bad Grineer missions don't have breakable windows.

[RoboDoge]

For Grineer/Corpus

Step 1: Reduce the amount of enemies that can be on-screen for non-defensive missions.

Step 2: Make each enemy a badass in some way. Make them extremely intelligent and give them more options to fight the Tenno other than shoot them while standing still or in cover. Basically just allow the enemies to use the environment against the Tenno actively, shooting at explosive barrels when given the opportunity, cracking windows in an attempt to get the Tenno to be sucked out into space. Also don't make them stand still like a moron so they can be shot (looking at you heavy units.)

Step 3: Give the enemies some sort of agility in combat like an evasive roll. Right now enemies are just braindead aimbotters.

Step 4: NERF ARMOR.

Shoot heavy grineer head armor and he goes in to beserk mod killing his alies. After he kills enough he levels up and gets "badass" rank. OH, crap i already saw that somewhere :)

[Aspari]

Shoot heavy grineer head armor and he goes in to beserk mod killing his alies. After he kills enough he levels up and gets "badass" rank. OH, crap i already saw that somewhere :)

I'm actually quite thankful Warframe doesn't have big hulking words telling you when you score a critical hit.

[AlvaroXDM]

I think that's nice - the combat rolls and etc. Infested, normal infested, nead some tweaking, and maybe then ancient nerfing. Right now they are just dull, and just run to you. Maybe make them have real sprints, poisonous bites, or even some basic stealth...something like that would also be nice.

[RoboDoge]

I think that's nice - the combat rolls and etc. Infested, normal infested, nead some tweaking, and maybe then ancient nerfing. Right now they are just dull, and just run to you. Maybe make them have real sprints, poisonous bites, or even some basic stealth...something like that would also be nice.

All mods are in need of AI tweaking. They are just dumb AI blobs that run at you. Grineers hide to some point, but i want to see some more tactics from them, flanking and outmaneuvering you.

[RoboDoge]

All mobs are in need of AI tweaking. They are just dumb AI blobs that run at you. Grineers hide to some point, but i want to see some more tactics from them, flanking and outmaneuvering you.

[Aspari]

I'd also recommend reinventing a few enemy types to make them "work" in the game. Ancients simply don't work as they are now. They're buggy as hell, easy to take down if you see them, but brutally punishing if you don't. Toxic Ancients shouldn't be melee fighters, they should basically do what the J3-Golem does and shoot Torid rounds at you. Healers should be siphoning health from the enemies they hit. Disruptors should radiate EMP which slowly decays energy and shields rather than taking it all at once.

[Haids]

I agree with everything OP says. The awful, awful AI is my biggest gripe right now, they, in effect, just kill themselves on the player.

[silentdrumr]

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

[Aspari]

I agree with everything OP says. The awful, awful AI is my biggest gripe right now, they, in effect, just kill themselves on the player.

Working as intended for Runners

[Aspari]

bump

[Mohfuu]

AI certainly could use more depth, I'd like to see them do intelligent things apart from adding difficulty it also adds life into the game.

It lets you predict your enemies which is a lot more engaging than not being able to predict your enemies (because they just stand there)

It suspends your disbelief, you feel more connected to the world when you see your enemies performing human-like actions, thinking, using tactics, being afraid (taking cover) tactically retreating or advancing.

[Valkyrion]

Step 3: Give the enemies some sort of agility in combat like an evasive roll. Right now enemies are just braindead aimbotters.

Have you ever heard of the rollerballs of doom, archnemesis of every tenno?

[gell]

DE needs to take a step back and look at the whole picture (they may have done that already and are working on it, but we don't know). They need to figure out the balance of how combat should work, not just add stuff they think is cool and see what happens. What is the purpose of Scorpions? Shield lancers? You can just shoot everything, but you aim a bit more with shield lancers. I'm not contesting their existence, but as a whole, they all need to work together and that would make the combat feel a lot better without even the need for better AI (which I'm all for, but that tends to be a hurdle and an iterative process).

 

To figure out the whole feel of combat, DE has to figure out how the Grineer fight and how that's different from other factions. I imagine that the Grineer are a militia, so they would likely have roles and formations. Roles are easy, formations are a bit trickier to code, so we'll discuss roles for now. The role of a Grineer trooper is really just cannon fodder in small amounts, but dangerous in large groups due to the sheer gunfire tearing you apart. They don't have healers or much regeneration, so they rely on preventing damage. This works well for them to have large amounts of armor, but it's too much when everyone has large amounts of armor. You need a few that don't. Shield lancers work well here, as they don't have tons of armor, but they have a large shield that makes them invincible if you shoot their shield. This is fair and engaging combat, at least as a premise. In practice, we have shield lancers who don't care if you shoot them in the foot 5 times to kill them, or always wait a few seconds, then pop out and shoot even if they are currently under constant fire from a Gorgon. They just don't have the AI and it feels random. Sorry, getting sidetracked about AI. Back to roles.

 

There are Seekers, who use the rollers and those were probably designed to interrupt. They do that, but they are also extremely poorly designed and annoying. Ever fight the boss Kela De Thaym? She throws way too many balls and can stun lock you to death. It's not fun and the player can't do anything to stop it once it starts. I'm not complaining for myself, and I know prevention is the key here, but it does not make for fun or engaging combat either. If a seeker's role is to interrupt or deny movement, they need to place walls, turrets, or other things that make the player "decide" to step back and engage the enemy by choice. I said "decide" because choice in combat is often weighted, or biased. The other option being, you can try to run in but you will probably die. It's still a choice, even if it's heavily weighted to one side.

 

The Scorpion's role also seems to be interruption, by grabbing the player. It's somewhat effective, but their melee attack is not that strong and often the player gets up before getting hit. I see the intent, but their implementation isn't very engaging.

 

Heavy Units make you take notice because they deal high damage. Most of them have high shields or HP as well, but that's okay since they often don't come in large groups. They are well designed and implemented, compared to the other enemies.

 

The Ballistas are terrible. They often miss, so they aren't a threat at all. They aren't like Rail Moas, who actually pose a threat, at least in defense missions.

 

Flameblades/melee guys do good damage if they hit you. They're basically suicide bombers though, as they are easy to kill and often can only get 1 shot on you, if any.

 

So what's left? What's the feel of the Grineer currently? They seem to be cannon fodder, with a pause to kill heavy Units every so often. Everyone else is inconsequential. Now I see why the rollers were made. DE couldn't design anything better to slow down the player except for annoying rolly balls. This needs to change. I already proposed at least one idea above.

 

Corpus feels better than Grineer right now, but I won't go into their overall design at this point. They can still be improved a lot, but are in a decent place right now.

 

To the point of the OP, I don't really agree with your points, just the idea that new players shouldn't be subjected to tons of enemies and armor early on. 

 

Edit: I know DE often doesn't know what to do when players criticize, so I need to get them started. For the Grineer feel, they should probably feel like they could tear you apart if you get too close for too long. Aside from the cannon fodder troopers, who I think are fine as cannon fodder, most other enemies need to really push you back (this doesn't mean literally move you without your control, but make you decide to fall back). Most have knockdown or interrupt moves (lancers, scorpions), but as a whole they don't. If 2 or 3 Grineer had a big shield generator and placed it down like a large Volt shield (meaning you can pass through), it would help slow the player. The shield generator itself would have vulnerabilities, which would make the player either shoot it, or go around (invisible?) and take it out from another angle. They just need to make Grineer feel like they are dangerous when close. This would be different from Corpus, which feel more dangerous from afar (lots of agile flying enemies, or moas who have high rate of fire). Make sure to design each Grineer so their role is to either make the player fall back, or decide to push forward a different way. Or, make the enemy buff their teammates either with cover (a row of shield lancers?), powering up a large gun, or a commander who actually commands and boosts allies in some way. A grineer commander who switch teleports with the player is sometimes useful, but often times just put himself into a group of other Tenno. Well done, commander.

Edited July 23, 2013 by gell

[Bakercompany86]

As a new player, VISIBLE difficulty increases are most definitely acceptable.  Just increasing mob HP and damage output is lame, and discouraging.

 

What the OP is suggesting is excellent.  Pouring bullets into somethings face only to have it NOT die is frustrating.  But watching an enemy move, take advantage of terrain, and learning these patterns IS fun.

 

 

You have my support.

[Xylia]

As a new player, VISIBLE difficulty increases are most definitely acceptable.  Just increasing mob HP and damage output is lame, and discouraging.

 

What the OP is suggesting is excellent.  Pouring bullets into somethings face only to have it NOT die is frustrating.  But watching an enemy move, take advantage of terrain, and learning these patterns IS fun.

 

 

You have my support.

 

Again, Mass Effect 3 does this very well.

 

Early game, enemies will sometimes try to flank you, but some mobtypes aren't even encountered. They will sometimes delay when they pop out from behind cover, giving you time to shoot them.

 

Late game, you see more deadly combinations (grunts + snipers + melee units) and they give you a lot less time to shoot and they shoot you more quickly when you leave cover.

 

There are statistical increases too, but nowhere near as wild as Warframe does -- an unmodded starter gun will kill a late-game enemy in ME3. You will probably get killed because it takes you too long to do so (you need those 2 second kills otherwise you get flanked and swarmed), but yet it isn't so gross that you run out of ammo before killing something like you do in Warframe.

 

Take an Unmodded Braton to Pluto and see how long you last. Hint -- not long.

[Aspari]

Again, Mass Effect 3 does this very well.

 

Early game, enemies will sometimes try to flank you, but some mobtypes aren't even encountered. They will sometimes delay when they pop out from behind cover, giving you time to shoot them.

 

Late game, you see more deadly combinations (grunts + snipers + melee units) and they give you a lot less time to shoot and they shoot you more quickly when you leave cover.

 

There are statistical increases too, but nowhere near as wild as Warframe does -- an unmodded starter gun will kill a late-game enemy in ME3. You will probably get killed because it takes you too long to do so (you need those 2 second kills otherwise you get flanked and swarmed), but yet it isn't so gross that you run out of ammo before killing something like you do in Warframe.

 

Take an Unmodded Braton to Pluto and see how long you last. Hint -- not long.

ME3 has a good model for multiplayer PvE. But I was thinking of another game that does this even better (though I can't remember the name of it.)

[Bakercompany86]

ME3 has a good model for multiplayer PvE. But I was thinking of another game that does this even better (though I can't remember the name of it.)

Ghost Recon, ME3, Gears of War (especially 3), Space Marine.  There are others also.  But plenty of examples for multiplayer pve, these are all 3rd person shooters that feel a lot like this game too.

 

I think if the developers nurtured ideas from other games and molded it into WF, we could have the greatest Horde Mode of all time.  I'd play it forever.

If I had to compare this game to ONLY one game, it would be Mass Effect 3.  In control, gameplay, and visual style.  Except ME3 WISHES it had melee combat like this.

[Xylia]

When I made the ME3 comparison, I was talking more about scaling enemy AI that made enemies harder as you got into later missions, instead of just tacking on more health, armor and damage.