when are you nerfing condition overload? if you wont give it to the firearms as well pls.

[(PSN)LordBartimus]

@Zeclem

You post those builds here from a theoretical builder. Yes, it's gonna give you the numbers based purely on math and logic. Good, yes, in that case, in a completely neutral environment, Condition Overload is gonna wreck shop. And according to your numbers, yes Condition Overload build has a much higher damage. Congrats. I'll cede there. 

What your not taking in here, which someone else has, is the idea of resistances and play style. Think about this. You need a couple status procs for CO to do so much damage. Take corrosive. It's pretty much a staple in most builds. The only other real element you can add is blast. And the blast proc goes away so quickly, it's only ever gonna last for one, maybe two hits? So you'll burst damage way into the stratosphere. 

Now with a crit build with a moderate status chance, you will likely be getting normal crits every hit at 2x and in some weapons cases, you'll be orange and red crits by 3x. Now, using the Venka as an example, your chunking away at a 150 Corrupted Bombard with a 3.25x multiplier, and only have corrosive on, your gonna kill that bastard so quick it's stupid. Realistically, if your in an endurance run and seeing 150s and haven't died, with a venka you're gonna have a much higher multiplier. Which directly affects damage. Now, your get a few red crits, and then you get the holy grail - a red status crit for slash. That proc alone is gonna allow me to walk away from said Bully and focus on someone else. My sustain dps also from playstyle and the combos is gonna be much much higher compared to that of CO. That's also reflected in the numbers you and other people have posted here. 

Condition Overload is gonna be the best option to kill enemies that require focused direct hits to them. Aka Burst the bad day down and move on. But if your planning on killing everything for a long time, a Blood Rush build is gonna take you much farther. Aka I can keep my damage where it is and ramping for a long time. Condition Overload, while yes, is gonna continue to be a worthy option, it'll get to a point where even with multiple status procs and the extra CO damage you're just not gonna get the same bang for you buck. 

It's a playstyle thing. It doest need a nerf because the vast majority of the playerbase is gonna understand what each build is good for. And those that don't, that's why they ask and we as a community write big, long walls of text for them. When a new player who needs to know how to mod a weapons asks, and you tell them "Don't use Condition Overload. It's way to OP and it's probably gonna get nerfed" that's doesn't help our community. Tell them what I did and what so many others here have said, "Heres what each one is good for, but really it falls upon what you want to do" 

[Guest]

I call bullsh!t. 

The jat kusar has 5% base status and a single element type as its base damage.  Even with forced procs from whip / blade stances, You'll only ever be able to get at max 5 status procs on any particular enemy.  With only 5% base status, that's gonna require 4x dual stats, weeping wounds, drifting contact and a stupid high combo counter before you're actually getting a decent number of procs, and even then, you're only seeing a 61% total status chance with a 5x combo multiplier.  That is not sufficient to reliably get all of your procs onto an enemy. 

You are not building the Jat Kusar for pure status, and if you are, you're doing it wrong.  Hybrid builds SHOULD be better than pure crit and pure status.  If it weren't for the forced procs from the stance, the jat kusar wouldn't be able to pull it off.

Condition Overload by itself isn't OP.  There are a huge number of factors that are working together to build your damage, and trying to point to one of them as the lone culprit is dumb.  There are plenty of weapons on which condition overload just doesn't do much.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Crit venka prime can wreck anything at any lvl, period. Crit/berzerker jat kusar can obliterate faster than condition overload. Crit/maiming Guandao conquers all. Galatine prime hybrid crit/status just wrex. Crit is very much as viable and dominant as status.

[Zeclem]

15 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

You completely failed to address the part where I outlined Condition Overload's actual strength compared to Blood Rush, so I'll re-iterate:

Condition Overload offers capped instances of a fixed bonus that only scales off of damage mods and itself and only applies to enemies that have procs on them, and only based on the number of procs those enemies have.

Blood Rush offers theoretically infinite instances of a bonus which scales off of damage, crit chance, crit damage, and itself, and applies to all enemies so long as you have your combo counter up.

And you want to nerf Condition Overload?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic

i like how this "cap" is in every argument when the realistically blood rush has a cap too. cap of 10/whateverbodycountisat seconds. and condition overload's "cap" is much higher than you think. 

and its not even hard to spread status procs.

On ‎20‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 3:01 PM, Darkuhn said:

how is this Thread even still going?

There are different Playstyles that are enjoyed by some players and disliked by others. If your build is working for you that's good, but don't enforce it on others.

I have lots of missions were I do like 50-80% of the dmg. And its not even bothering me, that other players don't doing as as much as I'm doing. All is good as long as the mission succeeds. 

This Game is mostly PvE so why are you asking to "balance"(Nerf) a specific Playstyle?

game being pve doesnt mean it shouldnt have balance cus "everything is viable anyway".

15 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

The real question is, when are they going to release Condition Overload counterparts for primary and secondary?

i can only imagine tigris prime being the new tonkor then.

14 hours ago, (PS4)LordBartimus said:

@Zeclem

You post those builds here from a theoretical builder. Yes, it's gonna give you the numbers based purely on math and logic. Good, yes, in that case, in a completely neutral environment, Condition Overload is gonna wreck shop. And according to your numbers, yes Condition Overload build has a much higher damage. Congrats. I'll cede there. 

What your not taking in here, which someone else has, is the idea of resistances and play style. Think about this. You need a couple status procs for CO to do so much damage. Take corrosive. It's pretty much a staple in most builds. The only other real element you can add is blast. And the blast proc goes away so quickly, it's only ever gonna last for one, maybe two hits? So you'll burst damage way into the stratosphere. 

Now with a crit build with a moderate status chance, you will likely be getting normal crits every hit at 2x and in some weapons cases, you'll be orange and red crits by 3x. Now, using the Venka as an example, your chunking away at a 150 Corrupted Bombard with a 3.25x multiplier, and only have corrosive on, your gonna kill that bastard so quick it's stupid. Realistically, if your in an endurance run and seeing 150s and haven't died, with a venka you're gonna have a much higher multiplier. Which directly affects damage. Now, your get a few red crits, and then you get the holy grail - a red status crit for slash. That proc alone is gonna allow me to walk away from said Bully and focus on someone else. My sustain dps also from playstyle and the combos is gonna be much much higher compared to that of CO. That's also reflected in the numbers you and other people have posted here. 

Condition Overload is gonna be the best option to kill enemies that require focused direct hits to them. Aka Burst the bad day down and move on. But if your planning on killing everything for a long time, a Blood Rush build is gonna take you much farther. Aka I can keep my damage where it is and ramping for a long time. Condition Overload, while yes, is gonna continue to be a worthy option, it'll get to a point where even with multiple status procs and the extra CO damage you're just not gonna get the same bang for you buck. 

It's a playstyle thing. It doest need a nerf because the vast majority of the playerbase is gonna understand what each build is good for. And those that don't, that's why they ask and we as a community write big, long walls of text for them. When a new player who needs to know how to mod a weapons asks, and you tell them "Don't use Condition Overload. It's way to OP and it's probably gonna get nerfed" that's doesn't help our community. Tell them what I did and what so many others here have said, "Heres what each one is good for, but really it falls upon what you want to do" 

blast's effect time is very much enough. its not quick by any means. and its not like you cant use other weapons and means to have extra procs on the enemy. its extremely easy. stop thinking you only have to stick with melee only.

and killing everything for a long time is simply not the case of the game if you arent doing endurance runs. and endurance runs are pointless.

10 hours ago, TheDefenestrater said:

I call bullsh!t. 

The jat kusar has 5% base status and a single element type as its base damage.  Even with forced procs from whip / blade stances, You'll only ever be able to get at max 5 status procs on any particular enemy.  With only 5% base status, that's gonna require 4x dual stats, weeping wounds, drifting contact and a stupid high combo counter before you're actually getting a decent number of procs, and even then, you're only seeing a 61% total status chance with a 5x combo multiplier.  That is not sufficient to reliably get all of your procs onto an enemy. 

You are not building the Jat Kusar for pure status, and if you are, you're doing it wrong.  Hybrid builds SHOULD be better than pure crit and pure status.  If it weren't for the forced procs from the stance, the jat kusar wouldn't be able to pull it off.

Condition Overload by itself isn't OP.  There are a huge number of factors that are working together to build your damage, and trying to point to one of them as the lone culprit is dumb.  There are plenty of weapons on which condition overload just doesn't do much.

it does have forced procs from the only stance it has. so yeah its pretty much what happened. you dont wanna believe it? fine. its not my problem.

8 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Crit venka prime can wreck anything at any lvl, period. Crit/berzerker jat kusar can obliterate faster than condition overload. Crit/maiming Guandao conquers all. Galatine prime hybrid crit/status just wrex. Crit is very much as viable and dominant as status.

i never said crit was unviable. i said condition overload beats it.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I disagree the condition overload beats it. I feelntheir pretty evenly matched... The difference is playstyle. 

 

Before condition overload... A straight status melee build was mediocre with all but the best melee's in higher lvls even with weeping wounds.. U almost always needed crit as a backup. Now, status is in an even realm to crit, even with sub par weapons. I don't see any need for nerfs... Especially with DE releasing unique weapons with alternate abilities and base stats now... Beyond the norm.

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I disagree the condition overload beats it. I feelntheir pretty evenly matched... The difference is playstyle. 

 

Before condition overload... A straight status melee build was mediocre with all but the best melee's in higher lvls even with weeping wounds.. U almost always needed crit as a backup. Now, status is in an even realm to crit, even with sub par weapons. I don't see any need for nerfs... Especially with DE releasing unique weapons with alternate abilities and base stats now... Beyond the norm.

numbers say it does beat it, what you feel is irrelevant. so it does beat it. and please dont bring that "it takes time to spread procs" argument. it is not. especially with how fast venkas are and how much multihits it has.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Zeclem

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

8 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

numbers say it does beat it, what you feel is irrelevant. so it does beat it. and please dont bring that "it takes time to spread procs" argument. it is not. especially with how fast venkas are and how much multihits it has.

So what if its faster? Condition overload isnt broken anymore than 90k dread one hit killer... Rivens are whats breaking the system. 

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

So what if its faster? Condition overload isnt broken anymore than 90k dread one hit killer... Rivens are whats breaking the system. 

if you will simpy deny numbers and facts like a good part of this thread, i see no point in explaining the thing i have already explained several times.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

if you will simpy deny numbers and facts like a good part of this thread, i see no point in explaining the thing i have already explained several times.

Im saying,so what if its faster. Status was slow af before condition overload and crit was faster. Now condition is faster... Doesn't mean it needs a nerf.

[Zeclem]

Just now, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Im saying,so what if its faster. Status was slow af before condition overload and crit was faster. Now condition is faster... Doesn't mean it needs a nerf.

if one build is better than the other, balance should be applied. its common sense.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Just now, Zeclem said:

if one build is better than the other, balance should be applied. its common sense.

Crit was better than status for eons. Balance WAS applied... Its called Condition Overload.

[Zeclem]

Just now, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Crit was better than status for eons. Balance WAS applied... Its called Condition Overload.

one thing was "better", and now still one thing is better. how is this balance exactly? its not like status weapons were unviable.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

one thing was "better", and now still one thing is better. how is this balance exactly? its not like status weapons were unviable.

Now... Both crit and staus builds can wreck shop. Before Condition Overload... Only crit and high damage builds could endgame. Status was a backup, or an additive style... It COULD NOT be used on its own without extremely high damaging builds or crit builds in 100+ scenarios if u wanted to complete a mission with any lvl of speed.

 

If Crit wasnt effective at higher levels(which it is), then i could see buffing crit...

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Now... Both crit and staus builds can wreck shop. Before Condition Overload... Only crit and high damage builds could endgame. Status was a backup, or an additive style... It COULD NOT be used on its own without extremely high damaging builds or crit builds in 100+ scenarios if u wanted to complete a mission with any lvl of speed.

 

If Crit wasnt effective at higher levels(which it is), then i could see buffing crit...

thats simply incorrect. status weps were very much fine in those levels that doesnt even matter in balancing.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

21 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

thats simply incorrect. status weps were very much fine in those levels that doesnt even matter in balancing.

"Fine" maybe... Remotely as effective as crit? No

Before Condition Overload... Lacera crit build with bloodrush/body count, killed MUCH faster than 100% status build. Hands down. Now, ur whining that jat kusar status build kills faster than crit build...sound familiar?

Edited September 21, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[SANYA501]

For a mod than has only a drop chance of 0.02 percent on an enemy that spawn on exclusively on 1 tileset, grineer sealab.....I said it was pretty decent, it made status weapon fun to use and feels powerful (thats basically the whole point of playing warframe for me, being as powerful as possible, in wf lore, Tenno are basically viewed as a god like being lol)

To make condition Overload to work, you have to put at least 2 elemental combo to make it more effective and you need to make sure it procs before the enemy died, thats basically 3  or more mod slot gone, not going to mention that it takes up to 15 point of mod capacity which means a forma might needed to complete the builds. 

Status weap is useful at higher lvl only to proc either corrosive, gas or viral for their status effects and debuff, but you'll still need a decent high damage weap to kills enemy to keep up your KPS to maintain the life support (higher than sortie lvl), with condition overload it actually helps a lot in that regard. 

If you are referring to CO being OP at lvl <50, then pretty much everything can be OP at lvl<50 if built correctly. 

[(PSN)LordBartimus]

@ZeclemFine, you don't need to use just melee. But the damage from your multiplier only works if your are actively using your melee weapon, not quick melee. So in that effect you'd be wasting time switching to, let's say Mutalist Cernos, shooting an enemy and getting gas and cold, then switching to a CO Venka Prime, and then your maybe get a couple in before he dies. Your talking about how "balance this, balance that." The guy above me literally just said it, anything level 50 and below is gonna melt regardless of what you use. I could kill a level 50 Corrupted Bob with a sub pair Ether Daggers build. The only thing we have to test on, and the only thing we really need to test builds on, are things way up there in the levels. That's why Life of Rio is so popular, he focuses so much on endgame endurance runs. 

You are so adamant about nerfing this mod when the vast majority of people in the community don't want it nerfed. You can say "Well people didn't want to nerf the tonkor but it happened anyways." Arguably a nerf in my opinion, and the reason it was was because it's super high damage potential with little to no drawbacks. 

Condition Overload has a major drawback, and that is when put into a long run scenario it's gonna falter. Especially if you can't proc lots of status effects rather quickly. It's not overpowered, it's an option for players and allows varied playstyles to be used for longer and more situations. I don't feel gimped bringing in a Lacera anymore. I don't feel the need to only use the Venka Prime anymore.

Your trying so hard to prove everyone wrong and shout to the world, "I'm right! Look at my math and numbers!" You may be. But, like in my last comment, you completely disregarded half my posts when I said that your damage numbers are showing overall, sustained, and burst. But what you need to understand is that you are a singular minority here. You aren't a loud voice like the Energy Overflow guys (which they need to just relax already). You've shown your numbers, everyone has seem them. Stop trying to pick fights, man. Let people play that game and when  DE looks at stats for mod usage, they'll make adjustments accordingly. You don't need to isolate yourself from the community. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by (PS4)LordBartimus
Tag user, fix status error

[Zeclem]

55 minutes ago, SANYA501 said:

For a mod than has only a drop chance of 0.02 percent on an enemy that spawn on exclusively on 1 tileset, grineer sealab.....I said it was pretty decent, it made status weapon fun to use and feels powerful (thats basically the whole point of playing warframe for me, being as powerful as possible, in wf lore, Tenno are basically viewed as a god like being lol)

To make condition Overload to work, you have to put at least 2 elemental combo to make it more effective and you need to make sure it procs before the enemy died, thats basically 3  or more mod slot gone, not going to mention that it takes up to 15 point of mod capacity which means a forma might needed to complete the builds. 

Status weap is useful at higher lvl only to proc either corrosive, gas or viral for their status effects and debuff, but you'll still need a decent high damage weap to kills enemy to keep up your KPS to maintain the life support (higher than sortie lvl), with condition overload it actually helps a lot in that regard. 

If you are referring to CO being OP at lvl <50, then pretty much everything can be OP at lvl<50 if built correctly. 

thats p much the average drop rate. and you need several mods for crit builds as well. thats not an argument.

and where did you even get that i was talking about low level stuff lol?

29 minutes ago, (PS4)LordBartimus said:

@ZeclemFine, you don't need to use just melee. But the damage from your multiplier only works if your are actively using your melee weapon, not quick melee. So in that effect you'd be wasting time switching to, let's say Mutalist Cernos, shooting an enemy and getting gas and cold, then switching to a CO Venka Prime, and then your maybe get a couple in before he dies. Your talking about how "balance this, balance that." The guy above me literally just said it, anything level 50 and below is gonna melt regardless of what you use. I could kill a level 50 Corrupted Bob with a sub pair Ether Daggers build. The only thing we have to test on, and the only thing we really need to test builds on, are things way up there in the levels. That's why Life of Rio is so popular, he focuses so much on endgame endurance runs. 

You are so adamant about nerfing this mod when the vast majority of people in the community don't want it nerfed. You can say "Well people didn't want to nerf the tonkor but it happened anyways." Arguably a nerf in my opinion, and the reason it was was because it's super high damage potential with little to no drawbacks. 

Condition Overload has a major drawback, and that is when put into a long run scenario it's gonna falter. Especially if you can't proc lots of status effects rather quickly. It's not overpowered, it's an option for players and allows varied playstyles to be used for longer and more situations. I don't feel gimped bringing in a Lacera anymore. I don't feel the need to only use the Venka Prime anymore.

Your trying so hard to prove everyone wrong and shout to the world, "I'm right! Look at my math and numbers!" You may be. But, like in my last comment, you completely disregarded half my posts when I said that your damage numbers are showing overall, sustained, and burst. But what you need to understand is that you are a singular minority here. You aren't a loud voice like the Energy Overflow guys (which they need to just relax already). You've shown your numbers, everyone has seem them. Stop trying to pick fights, man. Let people play that game and when  DE looks at stats for mod usage, they'll make adjustments accordingly. You don't need to isolate yourself from the community. 

im pretty sure combo counter does get the damage buff when using quick melee, since combo counter actually keeps going up even when quick melee'ing. where did you actually get that i was talking about low lvl stuff? i actually did said i was talking about sortie levels. any level above that is irrelevant in any balance discussion so thats no argument that "bloodrush scales better in endurance runs".

community doesnt want it nerfed? can you give me facts for that? like actual numbers and all that? it would be much appreciated.

the longest scenario that is relevant to the balance is sortie 3. and it most certainly does not falter there at all. doesnt even get close to that actually. unlike tonkor who sufffered massively from armor.

so youre saying that im wrong cus im a "minority" even when i got actual numbers to back up my argument? thats one of the most dumbest things ive ever heard on these forums, if not the most. firstly, you got no idea if im actually minority. second, truth doesnt care about your opinions, and truth is co is stronger than bloodrush in a way it shouldnt be. i really dont care if im "minority". this is feedback section, and im giving my feedback with numbers. just cus you dont like the truth doesnt make it any less true. and i didnt disregard a single reply from anybody in this thread as long as they were willing to put up a proper discussion.

@(PS4)big_eviljakthat only further proves my point dude. there should be some kind of balance. rn we simply dont have it.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Zeclem

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

12 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

thats p much the average drop rate. and you need several mods for crit builds as well. thats not an argument.

and where did you even get that i was talking about low level stuff lol?

im pretty sure combo counter does get the damage buff when using quick melee, since combo counter actually keeps going up even when quick melee'ing. where did you actually get that i was talking about low lvl stuff? i actually did said i was talking about sortie levels. any level above that is irrelevant in any balance discussion so thats no argument that "bloodrush scales better in endurance runs".

community doesnt want it nerfed? can you give me facts for that? like actual numbers and all that? it would be much appreciated.

the longest scenario that is relevant to the balance is sortie 3. and it most certainly does not falter there at all. doesnt even get close to that actually. unlike tonkor who sufffered massively from armor.

so youre saying that im wrong cus im a "minority" even when i got actual numbers to back up my argument? thats one of the most dumbest things ive ever heard on these forums, if not the most. firstly, you got no idea if im actually minority. second, truth doesnt care about your opinions, and truth is co is stronger than bloodrush in a way it shouldnt be. i really dont care if im "minority". this is feedback section, and im giving my feedback with numbers. just cus you dont like the truth doesnt make it any less true. and i didnt disregard a single reply from anybody in this thread as long as they were willing to put up a proper discussion.

@(PS4)big_eviljakthat only further proves my point dude. there should be some kind of balance. rn we simply dont have it.

Low lvl stuff? Ur talkin about low lvl content? I can wreck lvl 50 and down with a heat dagger. What a moronic argument. Nerfng anything based on low level content is just plain dumb.

Edited September 21, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Zeclem]

Just now, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Low lvl stuff? Ur talkin about low lvl content? I can wreck lvl 50 and down with a heat dagger. What a moronic argument. Nerfng anything based on low level content uis just plain dumb.

.....did you actually read anything ive said or are you just out of false arguments to make? ive literally said that im talking about sortie levels not low levels lol?

[Dreddeth]

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

i like how this "cap" is in every argument when the realistically blood rush has a cap too. cap of 10/whateverbodycountisat seconds. and condition overload's "cap" is much higher than you think. 

Okay, let's actually run the math here.

Condition Overload provides a 60% damage boost that stacks with itself. So for simplicity's sake we'll take a weapon with 100 total damage and a 100% proc chance, and for the sake of argument we'll go and use it on an enemy with 4 procs, which is frankly impractical if your name isn't Saryn, and basically impossible if you aren't at least using an IPS-based Status weapon like the Broken Scepter or Galatine.

100*1.6=160

160*1.6=256

256*1.6=409

409*1.6=655.36

And for the sake of argument, here's your mythical 5-proc bonus: 655.36*1.6=1,048.57.

Keep in mind, this damage bonus has to be ramped back up from zero against the next enemy, or back up from 2 procs if you're playing Toxic Lash Saryn.

Now for Blood Rush, let's take a weapon with, again, 100 total damage for simplicity's sake, and the exact same attack speed to remove as many variables as possible, and instead of giving it 100% status chance, we'll give it 20% base crit chance and a 2.0 crit multiplier, modded to 3.8 with Organ Shatter. There are plenty of weapons out there with those exact crit stats, such as the Nikana Prime.

At 1.5, we multiply that 20% crit chance by 2.65, and end up with a 53% chance of doing 3.8 times our base damage, which would be 380. This is without factoring in the combo multiplier itself, because we're assuming the status weapon is running Drifting Contract, making the point moot. This isn't really impressive yet because we aren't stacking True Steel, but it's worth noting that the level 1 crit damage is in excess of a 2 proc bonus from Condition Overload, and that it happens every other swing on average.

At 2.0, which is also fairly easy to reach, we multiply that 53% crit chance by 2.65, and we end up with 140% crit chance, which guarantees a damage of 380, and gives us a 40% chance of an orange crit, meaning that we have to calculate a new crit multiplier for the new crit level, the formula for which being Crit Level(Crit Multiplier-1)+1.

In this case the crit level is 2 and the crit multiplier is 3.8, so the formula to determine the orange crit multiplier is 2(3.8-1)+1.

Which gives us 6.6, meaning that, on average, 4 out of every 10 hits is dealing 660 damage, and the remaining 6 are still dealing 380.

Then we hit 2.5, which is also doable, even easy if you're invested enough in melee to be using such a build in the first place. 140% crit chance, multiplied by 2.65, is 231% crit chance, which means that we now have a guarantee of dealing 660 damage, and a 31% chance of dealing red crits, which means that we need to break out the crit level formula again.

3(3.8-1)+1=9.4. We are now dealing 940 damage every 3 swings out of 10 on average, and 660 damage whenever we're not.

At this point the raw numbers really begin to supersede those offered by Condition Overload, and since many high-end crit weapons have enough status chance to reliably proc Corrosive, Magnetic, or Slash, it's more relevant than you think. This bonus applies to any enemy hit within a 13 to 15 second window depending on whether you're using Body Count or Drifting Contact, and thus only requires ramping up if you run out of enemies to kill, which is less and less likely to happen as the mission continues. It technically ramps up slower, because the combo counter is only impacted by number of hits, but it ramps up much harder with each level thanks to the way crits work, and stays ramped up for much longer.

And for the sake of my counter-argument we'll see what happens when we reach 3.0, which I'll admit is the point where things get less doable, but it's still not exactly uncommon.

231% multiplied by 2.65 is an astounding 612% crit chance, meaning that we skip right past guaranteed hits of 660 and jump to level 6 crits.

To wrap this up, 6(3.8-1)+1=17.8. We are now dealing 1,780 damage on every hit, which is roughly 75% more than the unrealistic scenario of a 5 proc bonus off of Condition Overload, and a bit less than three times the damage of the more likely 4 proc scenario.

This is on two weapons with identical damage and attack speed stats, only differing in that one has a modded status chance of 100% and a negligible crit chance, while the other has viable crit stats and negligible status chance. To no surprise, crit pretty much completely dominated the raw numbers game due to how insane its scaling is, which would strongly indicate that the power of a Condition Overload build isn't the bonus damage provided by the mod itself, but the utility and damage provided by the procs, which, if you're using Saryn, can be as lethal a combination as Toxin, Viral, Slash, and Corrosive stacked on top of each other.

Edit: Source for how crits and crit levels work: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit

Edited September 21, 2017 by Dreddeth
Typographical error.

[Zeclem]

4 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Okay, let's actually run the math here.

Condition Overload provides a 60% damage boost that stacks with itself. So for simplicity's sake we'll take a weapon with 100 total damage and a 100% proc chance, and for the sake of argument we'll go and use it on an enemy with 4 procs, which is frankly impractical if your name isn't Saryn, and basically impossible if you aren't at least using an IPS-based Status weapon like the Broken Scepter or Galatine.

100*1.6=160

160*1.6=256

256*1.6=409

409*1.6=655.36

And for the sake of argument, here's your mythical 5-proc bonus: 655.36*1.6=1,048.57.

Keep in mind, this damage bonus has to be ramped back up from zero against the next enemy, or back up from 2 procs if you're playing Toxic Lash Saryn.

Now for Blood Rush, let's take a weapon with, again, 100 total damage for simplicity's sake, and the exact same attack speed to remove as many variables as possible, and instead of giving it 100% status chance, we'll give it 20% base crit chance and a 2.0 crit multiplier, modded to 3.8 with Organ Shatter. There are plenty of weapons out there with those exact crit stats, such as the Nikana Prime.

At 1.5, we multiply that 20% crit chance by 2.65, and end up with a 53% chance of doing 3.8 times our base damage, which would be 380. This is without factoring in the combo multiplier itself, because we're assuming the status weapon is running Drifting Contract, making the point moot. This isn't really impressive yet because we aren't stacking True Steel, but it's worth noting that the level 1 crit damage is in excess of a 2 proc bonus from Condition Overload, and that it happens every other swing on average.

At 2.0, which is also fairly easy to reach, we multiply that 53% crit chance by 2.65, and we end up with 140% crit chance, which guarantees a damage of 380, and gives us a 40% chance of an orange crit, meaning that we have to calculate a new crit multiplier for the new crit level, the formula for which being Crit Level(Crit Multiplier-1)+1.

In this case the crit level is 2 and the crit multiplier is 3.8, so the formula to determine the orange crit multiplier is 2(3.8-1)+1.

Which gives us 6.6, meaning that, on average, 4 out of every 10 hits is dealing 660 damage, and the remaining 6 are still dealing 380.

Then we hit 2.5, which is also doable, even easy if you're invested enough in melee to be using such a build in the first place. 140% crit chance, multiplied by 2.65, is 231% crit chance, which means that we now have a guarantee of dealing 660 damage, and a 31% chance of dealing red crits, which means that we need to break out the crit level formula again.

3(3.8-1)+1=9.4. We are now dealing 940 damage every 3 swings out of 10 on average, and 660 damage whenever we're not.

At this point the raw numbers really begin to supersede those offered by Condition Overload, and since many high-end crit weapons have enough status chance to reliably proc Corrosive, Magnetic, or Slash, it's more relevant than you think. This bonus applies to any enemy hit within a 13 to 15 second window depending on whether you're using Body Count or Drifting Contact, and thus only requires ramping up if you run out of enemies to kill, which is less and less likely to happen as the mission continues. It technically ramps up slower, because the combo counter is only impacted by number of hits, but it ramps up much harder with each level thanks to the way crits work, and stays ramped up for much longer.

And for the sake of my counter-argument we'll see what happens when we reach 3.0, which I'll admit is the point where things get less doable, but it's still not exactly uncommon.

231% multiplied by 2.65 is an astounding 612% crit chance, meaning that we skip right past guaranteed hits of 660 and jump to level 6 crits.

To wrap this up, 6(3.8-1)+1=17.8. We are now dealing 1,780 damage on every hit, which is roughly 75% more than the unrealistic scenario of a 5 proc bonus off of Condition Overload, and a bit less than three times the damage of the more likely 4 proc scenario.

This is on two weapons with identical damage and attack speed stats, only differing in that one has a modded status chance of 100% and a negligible crit chance, while the other has viable crit stats and negligible status chance. To no surprise, crit pretty much completely dominated the raw numbers game due to how insane its scaling is, which would strongly indicate that the power of a Condition Overload build isn't the bonus damage provided by the mod itself, but the utility and damage provided by the procs, which, if you're using Saryn, can be as lethal a combination as Toxin, Viral, Slash, Corrosive, and Heat stacked on top of each other.

1-4 procs arent hard even without saryn, as ive explained before.

2-youre ignoring the massive fact called "speed". condition overload will reach its damage potential far faster than bloodrush.

3-status builds will always have more base damage compared to crit builds.

ive already did the actual numbers with an actual dps calculator, but ty for trying this miscalculacion of a theorycraft that has forgotten to include these and many other factors as well. and now you know why you should be using an actual dps calc instead of your own math.

[Dreddeth]

Just now, Zeclem said:

1-4 procs arent hard even without saryn, as ive explained before.

2-youre ignoring the massive fact called "speed". condition overload will reach its damage potential far faster than bloodrush.

3-status builds will always have more base damage compared to crit builds.

ive already did the actual numbers with an actual dps calculator, but ty for trying this miscalculacion of a theorycraft that has forgotten to include these and many other factors as well. and now you know why you should be using an actual dps calc instead of your own math.

1: That's open for debate.

2: Ramp up speed is largely irrelevant, because the average crit damage will put it on equal enough footing to defeat the point before it starts to hyper scale, because after 5 hits the crit weapon is already dealing damage greater than the 2 proc bonus of Condition Overload every other hit.

3: The highest base damage among non-heavy melee weapons goes to the Nikana Prime, which has great crit stats. The first, second, third, and fourth highest base damages among all melee weapons period belong to the Arca Titron, the Galatine Prime, the War, and a tie between the Scindo Prime and Fragor Prime, all of which have great crit stats. Additionally, even it were true that Status weapons had higher base damage, then it would be because of that base damage, and not Condition Overload, that they would be strong. Finally, arbitrarily giving the hypothetical status weapon in my comparison a lead in base damage, or any other stat, such as attack speed, defeats the point of the exercise, which is to demonstrate that Condition Overload itself doesn't actually have as large of an impact on damage as Blood Rush.

4: I followed the exact formula for how the mod's respective bonuses are applied, AND the exact formula for what happens when crit chance goes above 100%, 200%, etc. On top of that I even showed my work, so people can actually point out where I went wrong, if I did. I'll even link to the relevant wiki articles on Condition Overload and Blood Rush so that people can cross-reference for better correction.

Condition Overload: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Condition_Overload

Blood Rush: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Rush

And for the sake of having everything in one place, here's the crit page again: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit

Now go ahead and correct my math if you can find a demonstrable flaw in it.

 

[CantIHaveAShow]

I don't mind Condition Overload. it's a mod that promotes Synergy. I personally don't use it much. I run a crit based Jat Kittag and I haven't met a CO build I can't keep up with.

[Zeclem]

4 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

1: That's open for debate.

2: Ramp up speed is largely irrelevant, because the average crit damage will put it on equal enough footing to defeat the point before it starts to hyper scale, because after 5 hits the crit weapon is already dealing damage greater than the 2 proc bonus of Condition Overload every other hit.

3: The highest base damage among non-heavy melee weapons goes to the Nikana Prime, which has great crit stats. The first, second, third, and fourth highest base damages among all melee weapons period belong to the Arca Titron, the Galatine Prime, the War, and a tie between the Scindo Prime and Fragor Prime, all of which have great crit stats. Additionally, even it were true that Status weapons had higher base damage, then it would be because of that base damage, and not Condition Overload, that they would be strong. Finally, arbitrarily giving the hypothetical status weapon in my comparison a lead in base damage, or any other stat, such as attack speed, defeats the point of the exercise, which is to demonstrate that Condition Overload itself doesn't actually have as large of an impact on damage as Blood Rush.

4: I followed the exact formula for how the mod's respective bonuses are applied, AND the exact formula for what happens when crit chance goes above 100%, 200%, etc. On top of that I even showed my work, so people can actually point out where I went wrong, if I did. I'll even link to the relevant wiki articles on Condition Overload and Blood Rush so that people can cross-reference for better correction.

Condition Overload: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Condition_Overload

Blood Rush: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Rush

And for the sake of having everything in one place, here's the crit page again: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit

Now go ahead and correct my math if you can find a demonstrable flaw in it.

 

1-sure, lets call it that.

2-it is very relevant according to actual dps calcs.

3-a status build on a same weapon will have more base damage than a crit one cus status builds use dual stat mods that give more base damage. so you basically did not understand what i meant by saying that. and all those weapons you have listed also have great status stats as well.

4-there are more than formulas in calculating dps. im not saying your math is off, im saying youre leaving massive factors out.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Zeclem