Grinders... grrrrr

[lamiadomina]

A setup delay probably wouldn't help much, since they so often come from around corners well after spawning and going hot. I reiterate as well that it really blurs Grineer tactics way too much with Corpus, and a lot of the draw of this game was the very different AI used by different factions.

Discussed a few other alternatives with Pigeon in game just now that might warrant sharing. One: Give Grineer a sprint move, and make their AI more aggressive about advancing and outflanking when not under direct fire. They seem to do some of this already, although I'm not certain how much of that is coincidence and how much is the AI really being smart enough to recognize it as a tactic. Second, give them better area denial options - Napalm and bombard heavies already do this to an extent. Giving the lancers and troopers smoke grenades might actually help a lot while avoiding the old "grenade spam" days. Idea came to me while playing on a burning map and trying to snipe through smoke - it can be almost impossible to see through it at longer ranges. Letting enemies deploy it dynamically would make it much harder to turtle and engage them from long range and give them a way to advance on a player's flank without directly increasing lethality.

The primary risk from Grineer pre-Grinder was getting outflanked and I'd like to see that stay in the game - because it's much more distinct from the other factions' tactics that way, and because it's much closer to realistic infantry tactics and that's just cool. I really want that to stay in the game and there are good solutions that could keep it that way. Grinders were a bad one.

[SigFloyd]

There's something wonky going on with what they're weak or resistant to. Shooting at it with a bolt weapon requires dozens and dozens of hits, but a Sicarus blows them with one burst.

srsly, WE ARE TENNO

i get it, when we get hit, there SHOULD be consequences, but let us have SOME say in how that pans out

Couldn't agree more. When a scrawny guy with a car door can knock you flat on your &#! with no effort, and a metal soccer ball stops you from doing anything at all, there's some serious disconnect between what the designers and developers want the Tenno to be. If they're supposed to be space ninjas, stop giving common mooks so much power and give power to enemies that are actually supposed to be fearsome. Imagine the hero of a fantasy game, who's amassed lots of power, getting stopped dead in his tracks by a slime. That's what's happening here. He shouldn't be stopped by a slime, he should be struggling with zombie demons from outer space.

Edited February 7, 2013 by SigFloyd

[lamiadomina]

Charming. That is only one of the pile of reasons that they are stupid, so I can't in good conscience suggest someone fix it when I'm going to hate them and whoever created them all the same. But that's just a cherry on top of the pile of stupid.

[CY13ERPUNK]

I get what they tried to do with the Grinders, in giving Grineer another option for flushing out players from cover like some sort of mechanical attack dog rather than having the AI resorting to grenade spam. The problem as others have said is their speed, size, and health. If they were bigger and had abit less health, maybe even a little slower then it wouldn't be nearly as annoying. To that end, if Grinders had some kind of set up time giving players an opportunity to kill them or the Grineer deploying them before they become an active threat might further help mitigate the hatred for them since it's in the players hands then as to if it becomes a problem or not if outright removing the Grinders isn't on the table at this point for the devs.

agreed, I do NOT want to see grinders removed, but I would like them to be tweaked as well as giving the grineer more tools with which to rain on our Tenno parades =P

[CheeseHasLeafs]

tbh, I wouldn't cry if they were removed.

They do way too much damage too, and I think they've actually got more health than a Grineer Sawman.

[11.11.11]

A lot's been said in this thread I agree with. I play mostly solo latley, and grinders are a rolling pain in the ***.

It just strikes me as illogical that Grineer marines take two headshots from my aklato to down, but grinders will soak up far more than that, assuming I hit them through all their frenzied rolling.

Slow them down, remove thier adamantium armour, and reduce their spawns a bit please - but first and foremost - stop the stunlocking. It's stupid and irksome as hell.

Edited February 8, 2013 by 11.11.11

[lamiadomina]

I'm reasonably certain that the stunlock is literally the entire point behind the grinder. Somebody had the idea that Grineer need a fast closing disruption unit to prevent turtling/nerf sniping - because it would require more work and creativity to give them better defensive point units, tactics and area denial tools to allow them to close on a sniper, I imagine.

[GratuitousLurking]

These things really grind my gears :/

[Redler]

Just come in here to say one charge scindo = many sad sad grinder.

[CheeseHasLeafs]

Just come in here to say one charge scindo = many sad sad grinder.

Unfortunately I don't really like the Scindo, or the Fragor. Somehow it just clashes with the whole look of the frames. Maybe that's just me.

But still, come on, tiny invincible balls that do tons of damage and have way too much health?

I'm sure the effort to up the difficulty was appreciated, but maybe that could have been done another way. Other than small annoying balls.

[Redler]

Unfortunately I don't really like the Scindo, or the Fragor. Somehow it just clashes with the whole look of the frames. Maybe that's just me.

But still, come on, tiny invincible balls that do tons of damage and have way too much health?

I'm sure the effort to up the difficulty was appreciated, but maybe that could have been done another way. Other than small annoying balls.

If a guy use those 2 on Loki... yeah, I don't know what to say. Fortnately, I play Rhino.

I don't really know about health though, one swing from my Scindo or 1 hit from my Hek kill the outright.

The only problem I can say is they just turn so fast and too small for a lot of weapon to be effective.

Also they should be stun when hit with electricity.

[PlusEighteen]

Either:

1. Make melee jump attacks instakill/stun them

2. Less health

They are a challenging addition to the game and shouldn't be removed just because people can't aim

Edited February 8, 2013 by PlusEighteen

[CapricaSix]

2. Less health

Give them as much health as an Osprey and they'll be reduced to a minor nuisance, problem solved, in my opinion.

[CY13ERPUNK]

These things really grind my gears :/

+1 sir

[11.11.11]

Further to my previous statment - I went and did some extensive solo play, and I must say, I don't think grinders are perhaps as broken as I first thought.

Sure they're a challenge to hit, and maybe their hitpoints could do with a slight nerf, but I think overall they're a good addition to the game.

I do think however something needs to be done regarding their spawnrate. One or two are a fun challenge, but 4 or 5 - plus the grineer that inevitabley come with them is just insane on solo. You get stunlocked into oblivion.

So the grinders have a thumbs up from me - with the proviso that we see less of them in packs.

[CallMeGanymede]

I had an idea, why not make them get stuck to walls for a couple seconds every time they rush trough you and hit a wall? That would tone down the annoying factor.

This would be a perfect fix, imo.

[cypherhalo]

Yeah, these guys are super-annoying. No fun to fight at all. Mind, I have actually been defending the Infested Chargers, who I feel actually make the Infested a more dangerous and interesting faction to fight. They can be annoying, but there are ways to deal with them. These Grinders though? I am not seeing many good ways to deal with them. I can barely melee them, the slightest contact staggers me, they're fast, so fast that you can't kite them, they're amazingly difficult to hit, especially when paired with other enemies, and they turn around pretty much on a dime. I've resorted to using powers on them as it is really the only effective way I've found to deal with them. Can you melee them when they jump up at you? Even so, that is a very small window of opportunity. Grinders need to be nerfed and nerfed now.

Lower the amount of time I'm staggered, give me a way to break out of it, make them easier to hit, give them less HP, do something. I mean, change their attack animation to instead of jumping at me and rolling on by they instead latch on to you and start "grinding" away at your shields and HP. They are just absolutely zero fun to fight right now and I'm not seeing a lot of effective tactics against them.

[Vaskadar]

I haven't run into these guys yet... but from what I'm reading, I don't want to.

[UkyoSonoda]

Found Ember deals with grinders easy. Just pop skill 2 or 3 and watch them explode from burn damage.

[Prusiano]

Grinders need to be nerfed and nerfed now.

i disagree, maybe as a melee warframe could be hard to kill them but as a shooter one, they are a piece of cake.

Gorgon + stun/Hek-Strun-Boar are great choices, so you can get kills fast and easy.

Also some AP is needed but nothing a mod can't do, melee weapons should get some AP mods on too, if keep wanting to play melee.

[lamiadomina]

The fact that a fairly specific subset of weapons can deal with them isn't that much of a defense, especially when there are a handfull of really egregious gaps like bolt weapons dealing pathetic damage. They would probably be less terrible if things like that were fixed so that at least most reasonable combinations (eg, not running snipetron/lex like a tool) had at least one viable option against them.

But that would make them less terrible, not good. I'll reiterate that a good design feature is one that is actually fun to fight, not an annoyance that players can "deal with." Right now that's the best grinder fixes are going to make them: A mitigated negative. I'll reiterate also that giving Grineer an aggressive mechanized unit to rush cover with is an incredibly uncreative solution that &*$$genizes them way too much with Corpus and that changes to their AI and area denial tactics would have been a hugely more interesting way to address the "turtling" problem - inasmuch as you acknowledge that to be a problem, and I think way too many people are whining way, way too much about that. Grineer could do to be a little more aggressive and have some better options to defend their advancing units, but if sniping is going to remain a valid tactic in this game whatsoever, the definition of "sniping" requires that snipers have the option to en gage from a range where enemies can't retalliate. Challenging a sniper should consist of creating situations where they are still at risk of getting overwhelmed and flanked if they aren't efficient about it - and frankly, grinders are actually a very poor solution to that issue. The kind of large, open environments where snipers thrive most are the kind where fast grinders are the most likely to get separated from slower infantry units and pose the least threat to snipers... so they're pretty much a failure all around.

[MJ12]

Here's a few ideas for Grineer anti-turtling units which would work better:

Grineer Grenadiers, who have launchers on their rifles for lower-power plasma grenades, smoke grenades, and grenades which create shield bubbles.

Shield bubble grenades for Commanders (like Snowglobe without the slow) instead of switch teleport. Make them slightly less durable (they apparently have DR instead of armor) and spread them amongst squads.

Smoke/flash grenades for melee Grineer.

Any of these would be better than Grinders.

[KyleOne]

Agree. Grinders suck and are not fun. Would say they're the opposite of fun.

[lamiadomina]

Here's a few ideas for Grineer anti-turtling units which would work better:

Grineer Grenadiers, who have launchers on their rifles for lower-power plasma grenades, smoke grenades, and grenades which create shield bubbles.

Shield bubble grenades for Commanders (like Snowglobe without the slow) instead of switch teleport. Make them slightly less durable (they apparently have DR instead of armor) and spread them amongst squads.

Smoke/flash grenades for melee Grineer.

Any of these would be better than Grinders.

I suggested smoke grenades once before. That would actually be a really, really awesome way to give Grineer a better closing tool that didn't ratchet their lethality up to frustrating levels like grenade spam did a couple of patches ago. Get more people behind this, let's make it heard.

Giving them flashbangs is something I would be incredibly leery about. If they totally obscured vision or washed your whole screen out CoD style that would be pretty awful as something AI could spam, I think.

[MJ12]

I suggested smoke grenades once before. That would actually be a really, really awesome way to give Grineer a better closing tool that didn't ratchet their lethality up to frustrating levels like grenade spam did a couple of patches ago. Get more people behind this, let's make it heard.

Giving them flashbangs is something I would be incredibly leery about. If they totally obscured vision or washed your whole screen out CoD style that would be pretty awful as something AI could spam, I think.

I figured a 'flash' or 'stun' grenade would just make your aim incredibly shaky and drain stamina without taking away control. Put you on the back foot without taking away player input, so to speak.