[Nova] My Take On Null Star And Antimatter Drop

[TenZa]

Though I know this thread will incite the rage of a lot of close-minded people, I'm making it anyway for those who might be able to reason with me after reading.

This is a 3-Dimensional, face-paced action game. I think it's more than fair to say that in such a plane, utility generally outweighs raw damage. That being said, Null Star, and even moreso Antimatter Drop, are very useless impractical skills.

Null Star:
Aside from staggering some enemies, Null Star and its damage are pretty terrible from mid to late game. While the auto-fire and ""pre-set" characteristics of it give it some flavor, it doesn't provide any unique use to the player other than very small additional damage. Now let's compare this to a different concept that I'm making up just for the sake of this example (I'm NOT saying this is what the skill should do): Imagine if instead of its current mechanics for it to cause damage, it instead did NO damage but pushed the enemy away from the player to a small degree. An enemy close to the edge of a map could fall off and be automatically killed, pressure around the pod in Defense missions could be relieved, shockwave-causing enemies could be pushed out of range during their casting animation, the player could position themselves so that they push the enemy in a specific direction (say in range of another player's ability), and so much more. A simple switch from a damage-output oriented mechanic to a utility mechanic opens up a world of possibilities. That being said, my actual suggestion is to change what the "stars" of Null Star actually do. Instead of damaging nearby enemies automatically, I suggest that they wrap around bullets you fire, and give them the ability to penetrate enemies. This would effectively make Null Star into a buff that makes your first 6 shots able to hit more than one enemy at once (provided they're in a straight-ish line). That would make the skill have use at ANY given point in the game rather than it being okay early on, and then a waste of mod slots mid to late game. 

Antimatter Drop:
I actually feel like this ability is the most useless out of Nova's arsenal. Yes, I realize that if you put enough bullets into it, it produces insane damage, but let's walk through how this skill works just one more time: you fire a tiny, slow-moving energy ball that you must guide with your pointer and shoot with your gun(s) to make it do anything significant. First of all, as I said in the beginning of this post, allow me to remind you that this is a fast-paced 3-dimensional action game, so the ability loses points for being slow. Additionally, the controls are very strange and since your player's camera is tied to the pointer, it's even stranger trying to both control the ball and operate the game normally. Finally, for the ability to be worth the 50 energy, you and your team must stop firing shots at the wave of enemies coming at you, and direct your bullets at the tiny slow-moving ball that you're also still trying to navigate to the desired location. I think just reading that sentence to yourself alone should sound pretty silly. Even if you successfully do all of these things and set it up just right, all you get out of it is a tiny explosion that does a bunch of damage to maybe 1 or 2 enemies; provided you actually hit them before they moved elsewhere. On paper, this is a really cool ability and a step in the right direction for having unique abilities in this game, however it's simply impractical in reality.

I have actually 3 suggestions for how this ability could work instead to improve its usability:

Variant 1:
The only change is that the ball uses the same mechanics as Mag's bullet attractor; sucking in your and enemy shots from the surrounding area to increase its explosion damage like normal. Essentially, it plays on the "anti-matter"/"black hole" image a lot better while also making it easier to boost its damage and giving it the utility of being able to divert enemy fire away from your squishy Nova suit.

Variant 2:
A complete re-design. Rather than it absorbing bullets to get stronger, it moves fairly fast but increases in size and thus damage output as it travels. So to really get good damage out of it, the player would have to skillfully fly it around the room without hitting anything for as long as possible, so that when it's at an adequate size, you can drop a deadly bomb on enemies, with a blast radius that accurately reflects the time and effort put into expanding it.

Variant 3:
Essentially spirit bomb. Doing away with the guided blast mechanics, you instead "charge" the ability by holding 2, causing the Drop to expand and grow more powerful as you drain your own energy. Releasing 2 releases the Drop in the direction of your reticle. This is probably the most boring of the 3, but still provides much more ease of use and encourages high-energy mod builds and saving up energy during combat. Additionally, (and really this could apply to any of the 3 variants), the Drop should be allowed to pass through Wormhole to double its damage at the cost of additional setup (i.e. making a Wormhole to a precise location) and the energy required to cast the Wormhole.

Again, I know that Antimatter Drop has the potential to do a ton of damage, but what I'm trying to stress is that when implemented correctly, utility can go a lot farther than just raw damage output in a game like this. Just look at Vauban and Frost who are both requested in Defense missions simply for the utility that their abilities provide. Thanks for reading.
 

Edited July 25, 2013 by TenZa

[l2apt]

Very well thought out. +1

[Psychus]

As a serious nova player, I agree. I like the concepts.

[XDeathCoreX]

V1: Is the best idea.

V2: Would still have to suck in bullets unless you can control it remotely or else you'll die due to bad controls.

V3: Could end up draining too much energy. However if it does clear the whole room then energy is fine. Otherwise, I recommend draining shields instead.

[TenZa]

This got received a lot better than I expected. Thanks for stopping to read through my ideas, guys, and thanks for the feedback.

[blaes]

i'm really mitigated about your propositions.

 

null star as you present it and the v1 of your antimatter drop would greatly increase nova's resilience, taking away her biggest weakness.

and that wouldnt be good, because this is what justify her high damage.

take the glass out of glass canon and you'll have to tone down the canon a good bit.

 

especially with the 'suck enemies bullets in' aspect.

what could be good though, would be to have the bullet attract effect on your own bullets only, to allow you to boost it and direct it at the same time.

 

but i don't think i want more support/protection capabilities on my nova.

Edited July 25, 2013 by blaes

[Frostmire]

As much as i love playing around with AM-drop , i find that this ability is a total lackluster ( and it is unplayable most of the time that you are not the host ) . I wouldn't mind a nerf to M-prime if her other abilities are buffed , now she's pretty much just another "press 4 to win" frame .

Edited July 25, 2013 by Frostmire

[low1991]

Though I know this thread will incite the rage of a lot of close-minded people, I'm making it anyway for those who might be able to reason with me after reading.

This is a 3-Dimensional, face-paced action game. I think it's more than fair to say that in such a plane, utility generally outweighs raw damage. That being said, Null Star, and even moreso Antimatter Drop, are very useless impractical skills.

Null Star:

Aside from staggering some enemies, Null Star and its damage are pretty terrible from mid to late game. While the auto-fire and ""pre-set" characteristics of it give it some flavor, it doesn't provide any unique use to the player other than very small additional damage. Now let's compare this to a different concept that I'm making up just for the sake of this example (I'm NOT saying this is what the skill should do): Imagine if instead of its current mechanics for it to cause damage, it instead did NO damage but pushed the enemy away from the player to a small degree. An enemy close to the edge of a map could fall off and be automatically killed, pressure around the pod in Defense missions could be relieved, shockwave-causing enemies could be pushed out of range during their casting animation, the player could position themselves so that they push the enemy in a specific direction (say in range of another player's ability), and so much more. A simple switch from a damage-output oriented mechanic to a utility mechanic opens up a world of possibilities. That being said, my actual suggestion is to change what the "stars" of Null Star actually do. Instead of damaging nearby enemies automatically, I suggest that they wrap around bullets you fire, and give them the ability to penetrate enemies. This would effectively make Null Star into a buff that makes your first 6 shots able to hit more than one enemy at once (provided they're in a straight-ish line). That would make the skill have use at ANY given point in the game rather than it being okay early on, and then a waste of mod slots mid to late game. 

Antimatter Drop:

I actually feel like this ability is the most useless out of Nova's arsenal. Yes, I realize that if you put enough bullets into it, it produces insane damage, but let's walk through how this skill works just one more time: you fire a tiny, slow-moving energy ball that you must guide with your pointer and shoot with your gun(s) to make it do anything significant. First of all, as I said in the beginning of this post, allow me to remind you that this is a fast-paced 3-dimensional action game, so the ability loses points for being slow. Additionally, the controls are very strange and since your player's camera is tied to the pointer, it's even stranger trying to both control the ball and operate the game normally. Finally, for the ability to be worth the 50 energy, you and your team must stop firing shots at the wave of enemies coming at you, and direct your bullets at the tiny slow-moving ball that you're also still trying to navigate to the desired location. I think just reading that sentence to yourself alone should sound pretty silly. Even if you successfully do all of these things and set it up just right, all you get out of it is a tiny explosion that does a bunch of damage to maybe 1 or 2 enemies; provided you actually hit them before they moved elsewhere. On paper, this is a really cool ability and a step in the right direction for having unique abilities in this game, however it's simply impractical in reality.

I have actually 3 suggestions for how this ability could work instead to improve its usability:

Variant 1:

The only change is that the ball uses the same mechanics as Mag's bullet attractor; sucking in your and enemy shots from the surrounding area to increase its explosion damage like normal. Essentially, it plays on the "anti-matter"/"black hole" image a lot better while also making it easier to boost its damage and giving it the utility of being able to divert enemy fire away from your squishy Nova suit.

Variant 2:

A complete re-design. Rather than it absorbing bullets to get stronger, it moves fairly fast but increases in size and thus damage output as it travels. So to really get good damage out of it, the player would have to skillfully fly it around the room without hitting anything for as long as possible, so that when it's at an adequate size, you can drop a deadly bomb on enemies, with a blast radius that accurately reflects the time and effort put into expanding it.

Variant 3:

Essentially spirit bomb. Doing away with the guided blast mechanics, you instead "charge" the ability by holding 2, causing the Drop to expand and grow more powerful as you drain your own energy. Releasing 2 releases the Drop in the direction of your reticle. This is probably the most boring of the 3, but still provides much more ease of use and encourages high-energy mod builds and saving up energy during combat. Additionally, (and really this could apply to any of the 3 variants), the Drop should be allowed to pass through Wormhole to double its damage at the cost of additional setup (i.e. making a Wormhole to a precise location) and the energy required to cast the Wormhole.

Again, I know that Antimatter Drop has the potential to do a ton of damage, but what I'm trying to stress is that when implemented correctly, utility can go a lot farther than just raw damage output in a game like this. Just look at Vauban and Frost who are both requested in Defense missions simply for the utility that their abilities provide. Thanks for reading.

 

^^ or this:

make AM drop to have 4 different stages. like similar to a nuke.

 

1st stage (just out from nova)

damage multipler for explode is 1x/1.15x/1.50x/1.75x

high stability and control over the AM Drop.

 

2nd stage (yellow zone)

damage multipler for explode is 2x/2.15x/2.50x/2.75x

lower stability and control over AM Drop

 

3rd stage (hot-red zone)

damage multipler for explode is 3x/3.15x/3.50x/3.75x

easier to lose control and direction of AM Drop movements

 

4th stage (critical-level)

damage multipler for explode is 5x/5.15x/5.50x/5.75x

AM Drop has a mind and will of it' own.

 

all aoe radius are the same.

make the requirment for AM 1st stage to hit 2nd stage a amount of 10 shots.

2nd to 3rd stage: 15 shots

3rd to 4th stage: 10 shots.

 

at least this MIGHT prevent solo 1-shotting boss.

am i in the right forum?? *a question to myself*

[Sharrack]

I think the only change Antimatter drop needs is to make it reliably usable even if you aren't host.

The point of this ability seems to me "Huge amount of damage but needs time". It's for those situation with lots of enemies where killing everything takes time even with high dps weaponry like Mobile Defense or Standard Defense. In my opinion your V1 and V2 would push it into 100 Energy territory and V3 would be an entirely different Power.

 

And concerning "Null Star": It allows to go early planets without any additional weapons, allows to prevent knockdown from elites and enemies to be killed with only one more shot/burst even on higher levels. This ability does 1200 armor ignoring damage (unmodded, think it can go up to nearly 2.4k with duration - seems to increase pellet count - and damage mods), is homing and stagering on impact, able to distribute its damage to several targets or focus on a single one and can be cast in advance for 25 energy. I can't see any changes necessary here.

 

In essence you have 2 ultis on Nova, one of them at half price but harder to use in consequence. This is a Damage Frame why do you want to put so much utility into it, not every Frame needs some. Sometimes you just want to take a Frame proficient in blowing stuff up and that's something Nova is quite adapt in.

[E.R.I.C]

Variant 3:

Essentially spirit bomb.

 

i'd love to see goku in the game as well

[TenZa]

 

And concerning "Null Star": It allows to go early planets without any additional weapons, allows to prevent knockdown from elites and enemies to be killed with only one more shot/burst even on higher levels. This ability does 1200 armor ignoring damage (unmodded, think it can go up to nearly 2.4k with duration - seems to increase pellet count - and damage mods), is homing and stagering on impact, able to distribute its damage to several targets or focus on a single one and can be cast in advance for 25 energy. I can't see any changes necessary here.

 

I'm going to be blunt. If you think the damage on Null Star is anything more than pathetic in higher levels then you don't or haven't played Nova. You have no control over the stars and thus in the presence of more than 1 enemy, you can bet that you won't be shooting 1200 damage at anything (not that that is even a scratch to a higher-level enemy). I can throw a single Despair at an enemy and do more damage than that, deal the damage quicker, and not use a point of energy. That's what I have a problem with; a lot of abilities in the game become absolutely useless past a certain point, and I believe that ALL abilities should always be useful at any point in the game because they A: cost energy and B: are what define a Warframe. At the very least, the stars need to be refreshable.

[Arunasoul]

As far as the number 1 goes... yeah, it's kind of silly as a high level power use, but what frame doesn't have at least one ability drop off later. It does more damage to M-primed targets so it helps you get the explosions going. It also costs ONLY 25 energy so pushing it up too much would start pushing people into this frame more then it's ability's already have. Only change that might be good for the number 1 is the ability to release the charges on a second press of the 1 button at a target in your cross hairs at the time. That COULD throw it into a new category of ridiculous though, so I'm somewhat worried implementation would mean major nerfs.

 

I like the idea of a antimatter drop that sucks in bullets, as it's somewhat difficult to get your team to hit it with the variable release speed right now (even more so when it stops in mid air at times. I love it when it does it cause I can pound it without missing, but I think it's a glitch which upsets me cause it'll stop happening if they fix it.)

 

Just going to throw this down at the bottom to make it easier to see what I'm saying,

+1 for SMALL suction effect on antimatter drop

 

Void Stars with the ability to fire all remaining rounds at a target in your crosshairs. This would then allow you to recast the ability to make more. Implementation would likely mean a drop in Void Star's individual damage so that energy nuking a single target with everything you've got doesn't happen. A short CD effect perhaps. Either way, if this idea was implemented into the game flat out the way it is, then it would likely break balance due to the damage boost from M-Prime and the sudden damage nuke of 6 motes hitting the same person.

[Archwizard]

Null Star could still do damage, but I do like the idea of the shots having a small knockback included with the stagger. Personally, I just use them as a means to instantly detonate my Molecular Prime, or warn me where enemies are coming from.

 

Also love V1 of Antimatter Drop, especially since it's really hard to aim at it from a distance as it is, and a mechanic like this would give Nova a small defensive utility that would put her survival closer to other frames like Ember or Loki (who have skills like Overheat and Decoy). It wouldn't have to be very big, but even doubling the targetable radius of the drop would be a nice touch. I'm pretty sure there would be an outcry though, if Nyx didn't get an instant room-wide taunt-all when she casts Absorb; otherwise Nova's second skill might be more powerful than some ultimates.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Archwizard

[Xandielm]

Love the 3rd idea for anti matter drop since as a DBZ fan I like the idea of having my own spirit bomb attack, now we just need to add a kamehameha attack in the game with next warframe

 

P.S. I agree that the slow nature of the attack doesn't fit perfectly with the fast paced nature of the game but maybe thats not too bad

[Sharrack]

I'm going to be blunt. If you think the damage on Null Star is anything more than pathetic in higher levels then you don't or haven't played Nova. You have no control over the stars and thus in the presence of more than 1 enemy, you can bet that you won't be shooting 1200 damage at anything (not that that is even a scratch to a higher-level enemy). I can throw a single Despair at an enemy and do more damage than that, deal the damage quicker, and not use a point of energy. That's what I have a problem with; a lot of abilities in the game become absolutely useless past a certain point, and I believe that ALL abilities should always be useful at any point in the game because they A: cost energy and B: are what define a Warframe. At the very least, the stars need to be refreshable.

Define your Higher Levels. I was talking about the point after they don't outright kill their target, which is i think still somwhere between 20 and 30 with a focus mod which i always use on Caster frames, so i was talking about them still being somewhat usefull into the 30s perhaps 40s. Also as they spread out on several targets you can be sure to almost always apply all damage. Sure it's not much in endgame but there you either have elite or massive hordes of mobs where 2 or 4 are more usefull eitherway. If you change it in a way to make it viable on those levels 25 energy wouldn't be enough to cast it and if you keep it at 25 there is no reason to actually use it as Energy is cheap as dirt on those levels and your 2 and 4 are better choices.

So in my opinion the Stagger is enough to still take it with me in endgame which makes it one of the few 25 energy abilities i actually keep on my Frames.