Is Mag Still Considered Useless Tier?

[fatpig84]

Pull with maxed stretch and coil.

Things get funny real quick.

[BoompigXD]

I don't get the hate on BA....

 

People zoom in on its offensive abilities without looking at the fact that it stops enemies from hurting you, and in contrast they hurt themselves. This ESPECIALLY applies to Grineer Napalms as they leave fire in the bubble hurting themselves with fire

[Xylia]

I don't get the hate on BA....

 

People zoom in on its offensive abilities without looking at the fact that it stops enemies from hurting you, and in contrast they hurt themselves. This ESPECIALLY applies to Grineer Napalms as they leave fire in the bubble hurting themselves with fire

 

It is still HIGHLY situational.

 

And it costs a Lot of stinking energy.

 

75 for lessening the damage from 1 enemy, and then it blows up and tickles the nearest few mobs (at higher levels, 300 damage is a stiff breeze).

 

Uh... I dunno. That's just.... not a very good use of energy IMO.

 

Which is the problem with Mag -- anything she does, somebody else can do that better, and more. Reducing damage taken from an enemy? Frost can completely negate all incoming fire and with everybody and their brother carrying weapons that kill nearly anything in 3 seconds, who cares whether or not the enemy kills itself? The main point is to stop it from killing you which Snowglobe does. Oh, look, Frost has another awesome ability too -- Freeze. Or you could go Rhino and do Iron Skin. Rhino also has three other awesome abilities and won't get bowled over the moment anything looks his way.

 

What about Ember? 91% Damage Reduction if you happen to be lucky enough to get a Focus. And enemies getting too close to you get burned and unlike Mag, she's actually useful against Infested.

 

Then you got Volt. He's got Electric Shield, you do more damage to the enemies. Unlike Mag's BA, Electric Shield doesn't make Sonar worthless.

 

Want to talk about Crush's CC?

 

Look at Rhino Stomp. Rhino takes a split second to stomp the ground and the enemies float in the air just like they do when Mag uses Crush..... Rhino Stomp does only 200 less damage, has almost double the radius (20 meters), keeps the enemies CC'd a lot longer, AND doesn't render Rhino unable to do anything while "casting" it.

 

That leaves Shield Polarize. For 50 Energy, Mag can restore 50% Shields (is it 50% her shields, or 50% target's shields? The Wiki isn't very clear on that). However... there's Trinity's Blessing. 100 Energy gives you max Shields AND Health, and has unlimited Range and only requires you to cast for about 2-3 seconds.

 

It almost seems like Poor Mag is some sort of "Jill of all Trades" but her skills are... very lacking compared to similar skills of other Warframes.

[Raiyushi]

I've had a Mag use Bullet Attractor while we were fighting Jackal and that was pretty much a terrible idea...

Bullet Attractor is very situational, but if it actually directed the bullets where they need to go then it would make that skill just that much better.

[ROSING]

I can't think of very many other frames that require certain other frames or weapons to be in a Team to be effective.

Not trying to contradict you or anything, but half of Nova's abilities need weapons. Continue with meaningful discussion.

Mag is...I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one seems to have acknowledged Shield Polarize's defensive capabilities, which are pretty good. You can save your teammates' asses and the cyropod and yourself in one single instant. Though I'd agree its offensive abilities need fixing.

BA, bullets should do more damage than normal or should hit weak points to balance it out, blah blah, that whole shebang. Also it'd be cool if the explosion after was a lot more effective, because at end level it barely puts a scratch on the few people hanging around. Widen the blast radius and inc damage, make it like a weaker molecular prime on a single target. But we should remember it is good for defense in CQC.

Crush, everyone knows whats wrong with this one. Yep.

[Xylia]

Not trying to contradict you or anything, but half of Nova's abilities need weapons. Continue with meaningful discussion.

 

Read what you quoted again -- "CERTAIN other frames or weapons".

 

With Nova's skills........ANY weapon will do, doesn't matter what it is, as long as it does damage enough to kill something or feed the little floaty ball of death. With something like pull, only certain weapons will work. You trying to tell me that you can use Pull and then use something like, I don't know, a Lex to finish off the Pull'd enemies? No, you need someone else with an Ogris to blow them all up at once, or someone who has an Ult that actually does damage.

 

 

Mag is...I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one seems to have acknowledged Shield Polarize's defensive capabilities, which are pretty good. You can save your teammates' asses and the cyropod and yourself in one single instant. Though I'd agree its offensive abilities need fixing.

 

The problem with SP is that it is just too darn weak, and in the end run, Snowglobe is far, far better. Half of the Cryopod's Shields? That is like <0.5 seconds in a higher level Defense. I'd rather have a Frost; the Cryopod takes 0 damage then. Again, anything that Mag can do, somebody else can do better.

 

That is the #1 main problem with Mag -- she brings nothing UNIQUE to the Table. Her skills were either copied and done better, or were copied from other Warframes and watered down. I think Pull is probably the only thing that nobody else has a form of, and that is incredibly situational and can easily get yourself killed (since you're a stick-thin girl that gets knocked over by a poke).

 

I mean, face it... every other frame has something nobody else has:

 

Excalibur: An Ult that uses Projectiles. (which is, ironically one of the few uses Mag's BA even has)

Ember: World on Fire is... a unique Ult in how it works.

Ash: Bladestorm, and you could argue Teleport is unique in that it is a #3 ability that only costs 25 energy.

Banshee: Channeled Ult is kinda unique (can't think of anybody else who has a long Channeled Ult)

Frost: Uh... Snowglobe. Do I need say more?

Loki: Radial Disarm

Nova: M.Prime, Null Star

Nyx: Chaos

Rhino: Roar

Saryn: Contagion

Trinity: Energy Vampire, Well of Life

Vauban: Bounce, Tesla

Volt: Speed

 

.......Mag's only "Uniqueness" is Pull. Go through the list above and name something that will get you killed in many situations and is only useful in a few situations, other than maybe popping Sound Quake at the wrong time and getting mauled while using it.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Xylia

[TemetNosce]

To repeat something I said earlier about Shield Polarize, even ignoring other frames abilities you need to take into consideration the results of potential actions. You could either use Shield Polarize, and restore 50% shield, or you could use Crush, and the resulting CC will prevent damage long enough for everyone to heal up to full. Ultimately, the only situation I can think of where I'd recommend using Shield Polarize would be if you didn't have the energy for Crush, and that would require having slotted Shield Polarize in the first place, which honestly is a waste.

 

The current discussion of Mag as a weaker version of other Warframes definitely echoes my personal experiences, that said I can understand some overlap in abilities. My problem with Mag is that in the end she simply isn't a coherent, functional whole. Her abilities generally can't fulfill their own goals, and they don't mesh well together.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Pull: general consensus is this is now pretty good

 

Shield Polarize: what if this did something a bit interesting...  What if all affected allies applied a repulsive force on nearby enemies and all affected enemies applied an attractive force on each other when this was cast?  Could make for some very interesting battlefield rearranging and if enemies are knocked down, it could be very handy indeed if for nothing other than crowd control or breathing room for a revive.

 

Bullet Attractor: I feel like this is always going to be relegated to boss fights.  If nothing else, I feel like the energy cost should get dropped though.  75 seems awfully high for what it does.

 

Crush: as someone suggested a few days ago, what if Crush permanently debuffed afflicted enemies with a nonstacking debuff that would halve enemy armor upon "balling" enemies.  That'd give her a very well respected spot in endless defense and I don't think it would be over the top compared to anything else.

 

 

With change like this, perhaps she might see more use and would be even more of a manipulator than she is now.  Maybe that's just me..

[Eirshy]

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but couldn't a possible fix to BA be to just direct the bullets to weak points? or if sonar is up, just direct them to that?

 

Sonar is conditionally better than weakpoints. With an armor-ignoring weapon, shooting Sonar deals 650%, with a non-armor-ignoring weapon it deals 65% when shooting 900 Armor (all mobs have 900 or more by lv70, resulting in base damage to be 10% damage). Compared to a real weakpoint, which will take 200% regardless (vs non-Grineer).

 

Even if it did this it'd only assist people who are inaccurate, and be worthless for those who are- and a common weapon stat tradeoff is lower raw dps for higher accuracy.

 

The fix I had an idea for was to have it do what Volt's Electric Shield does (makes projectiles hitscan) upon entering the bubble, and then only adjusts the angle of shots that weren't going to hit the target in the first place. This allows it to allow Gorgons and Supras to use their massive raw DPS, without doing anything to shots that were accurate enough to begin with- and even buffing someone trying to hit a very small weakpoint (lower legs on grineer gunners, etc) by making their misses still deal damage.

 

The reason for the hitscan is to make it so it can check the trajectory accurately; projectiles have flight time and could still be dodged.

 

I don't get the hate on BA....

 

People zoom in on its offensive abilities without looking at the fact that it stops enemies from hurting you, and in contrast they hurt themselves. This ESPECIALLY applies to Grineer Napalms as they leave fire in the bubble hurting themselves with fire

 

Because you could stop them from shooting with BA, or I can kill them before they can even shoot via Sonar or a weakpoint hit.

 

It's also the only ability in the game that actually negates another ability: Banshee's Sonar.

And Sonar is THE core ability of Banshee, not a side show she uses once in a blue moon.

 

Only other ability that's close would be Pull vs Sonic Boom, but the knockdown is preserved- and the location result is still different unless the mag is right next to the banshee.

 

And at least Pull does something useful.

 

Pull: general consensus is this is now pretty good

 

Shield Polarize: what if this did something a bit interesting...  What if all affected allies applied a repulsive force on nearby enemies and all affected enemies applied an attractive force on each other when this was cast?  Could make for some very interesting battlefield rearranging and if enemies are knocked down, it could be very handy indeed if for nothing other than crowd control or breathing room for a revive.

 

Bullet Attractor: I feel like this is always going to be relegated to boss fights.  If nothing else, I feel like the energy cost should get dropped though.  75 seems awfully high for what it does.

 

Crush: as someone suggested a few days ago, what if Crush permanently debuffed afflicted enemies with a nonstacking debuff that would halve enemy armor upon "balling" enemies.  That'd give her a very well respected spot in endless defense and I don't think it would be over the top compared to anything else.

 

 

With change like this, perhaps she might see more use and would be even more of a manipulator than she is now.  Maybe that's just me..

 

That's an interesting idea for Polarize, and that it might end up being Trollban-quality as well XD

 

BA is bad on boss fights too... It lowers DPS :/ How many times do I have to say and explain how it lowers DPS before everyone understands that Bullet attractor lowers DPS by making it nearly impossible to hit weakpoints.

 

That Crush idea is actually really interesting, and I like it O_O

Edited July 31, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Archwizard]

Basically, Pull and Bullet Attractor are very strong skills when used correctly. 

In particular, Bullet Attractor's uses can escalate or decrease based on what frames you're paired with. If you have a Banshee or Frost on the team you probably won't have much use for this skill, but if you have an Excalibur it can be a great source of extra damage on a singular target.

 

Shield Polarize can be useful on Endless and Mobile defenses, but outside of them it's sort of "meh".

Crush is a very weak skill, even if used correctly.

 

Maybe someone can throw in a word about Crush during tomorrow's Q&A stream.

[Kesella]

Mag is mid to high tier right now depending on the mission.  She can pull the kills that a nuker frame can pull without needing her ultimate.  I can usually keep up with or surpass nuker frames.  Pull groups of enemies and spam a max charge orthos and you will rack up those kills.  Alone, she is a melee group melee terror, in a group she sets things up for Bastille, Ogris and Torid.  She does take some getting used to and you will have to get used to getting staggered occasionally but overall you can do more damage with less effort than other frames with Mag.  I do highly recomend you take shade as the stealth will be very useful once you get all those enemies around you in distracting their AI.

[Beldavid]

My take on how Mag could be fixed is take a page from what they did to the other frames in the Mag, volt , Rhino fix.

 

Shield Polarize:(numbers are just an idea)

first 100% shield restore to allies in range 

Second a lasting buff like Volt and Rhino got, like "adds damage threshold to shields for 30s" .

The amount of threshold IMO should be 5,10,15,20

that way at max rank, a hit that normally would do 30 damage now does 10, but a hit that does 150 damage does 130.

this way small hits = not a problem, but large hits are still dangerous.

 

Bullet Attractor:(numbers are just an idea)

its simple give it a damage amp, 1,2,3,4x

this way its the opposite of banshee's sonar in that as it only affects one enemy with a large "target zone" instead of alot of enemies with a small target zone.

 

Crush:

also simple, lower the damage, make it ignore armor then give it a portion of enemy armor doing damage.

Example:(numbers are just an idea)

400,400,500,600, base damage (ignores armor)

25%,50%,75%,100% enemies armor = damage(ignores armor)

armor of enemies not dead is shattered and left at 50% (this does not stack and does not go away)

 

this would make her have unique traits and probably make her a viable "end game" frame.

Edited July 31, 2013 by John0ates

[Eirshy]

Bullet Attractor:(numbers are just an idea)

its simple give it a damage amp, 1,2,3,4x

this way its the opposite of banshee's sonar in that as it only affects one enemy with a large "target zone" instead of alot of enemies with a small target zone.

 

Interesting idea, but still negeates Sonar and punishes people for using high-accuracy weapons. Solo that's not a problem, but party this is a huge issue.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

 

 

That's an interesting idea for Polarize, and that it might end up being Trollban-quality as well XD

 

BA is bad on boss fights too... It lowers DPS :/ How many times do I have to say and explain how it lowers DPS before everyone understands that Bullet attractor lowers DPS by making it nearly impossible to hit weakpoints.

 

That Crush idea is actually really interesting, and I like it O_O

Are you saying you like or dislike the Polarize idea?

 

I know it is bad, but it can be used as a pseudo-stun by preventing them from attacking for a time.  I know other abilities (Snow Globe) are better, but it's something.  It's not good at it, but at least in boss fights it has a role.  You don't use it when you're doing well.  You do it when Raptor got angry at your team and you don't have a Frost and now you have to revive three people.

[VScipii26]

Max reach+Coil helm+max rank Crush+Nova= Screw you, everything.

[Jack_Crowley]

Mag is one of my more favored frames these days. Mag's abilities are some of the more flexible abilities in game and can be used creatively. Most people dislike Bullet Attractor because it can be a burden if used at improper times. However, it can also be a fun and interesting ability to mess around with.

Here are a few simple things to try out with Mag's Bullet Attractor.

#1: Bullet Attractor + close proximity Glaive toss = Blendermode on targeted enemy.

#2: Bullet Attractor + Vauban abilities = Homing Tesla/Bastille/Bounce Pad/Vortex onto targeted enemy.

#3: Bullet Attractor + Ogris = Homing missiles (careful on this one, you can potentially troll a friendly by doing this)

Side note: Any players using a Flux Rifle (and possibly Ignis) please take caution, the Bullet Attractor will redirect the beam back to that player, essentially causing that player to injure or even kill themselves. As humorous as this bug may be, it needs to be fixed.

[Eirshy]

Are you saying you like or dislike the Polarize idea?

 

I know it is bad, but it can be used as a pseudo-stun by preventing them from attacking for a time.  I know other abilities (Snow Globe) are better, but it's something.  It's not good at it, but at least in boss fights it has a role.  You don't use it when you're doing well.  You do it when Raptor got angry at your team and you don't have a Frost and now you have to revive three people.

 

I'm saying I have mixed feelings about the Polarize idea and would have to see an implementation in action to really be able to comment on it.

 

As a rule, Bardic Taxi levels of control only works in turn-based and hive mind (re: RTS) environments... but I don't make the rules, I just observe trends.

 

It might turn into something of the likes of Janna's R or Blitzcrank's Q in League, where a bad use of it will cause people to die while a good use will hard-carry.

 

Sooooo yeah. Would have to see it working to pass judgement =P

 

 

 

I'll admit I'm a little biased talking about Bullet Attractor. My main three primaries are the Snidal, the Lanka, and the Dera (all very high-accuracy weapons), and my main frame is Banshee. But the way I see it, you could use that ability and make the boss stop shooting for 15-24 ish seconds, or I can kill it in well under 10 seconds and it'll stop shooting for the rest of the mission.

 

Max reach+Coil helm+max rank Crush+Nova= Screw you, everything.

 

tfw max rank crush does two-digit damage because mobs are like level 80

 

One Lanka headshot plus Nova = screw you, everything, too, you know.

[Beldavid]

Interesting idea, but still negeates Sonar and punishes people for using high-accuracy weapons. Solo that's not a problem, but party this is a huge issue.

how does it punish high accuracy weapons? because when they hit a weak spot (the head on all enemies that matter) you get a 2x bonus? yeah your right getting 4x and being able to spam as fast as your weapon can fire is worse than 2x and slow timed shots.

 

as for negating banshees sonar really? who cares? the idea is to give them a similar damage buff but in two different ways,

 

oh and banshees sonar is awesome when it picks the most armored part of a target so if you're not using a high powered high accuracy weapon with armor ignore/AP  base damage its not even worth aiming for.

think of a toxic, 300 base armor(this would be before scaling) = 75% reduction so with sonar, 100 damage = 500 - 75% =125 wooo that's insane, so much better than being able to just unload your AR / shotty / not so accurate anything for almost normal damage.

[Eirshy]

how does it punish high accuracy weapons? because when they hit a weak spot (the head on all enemies that matter) you get a 2x bonus? yeah your right getting 4x and being able to spam as fast as your weapon can fire is worse than 2x and slow timed shots.

 

as for negating banshees sonar really? who cares? the idea is to give them a similar damage buff but in two different ways,

 

oh and banshees sonar is awesome when it picks the most armored part of a target so if you're not using a high powered high accuracy weapon with armor ignore/AP  base damage its not even worth aiming for.

think of a toxic, 300 base armor(this would be before scaling) = 75% reduction so with sonar, 100 damage = 500 - 75% =125 wooo that's insane, so much better than being able to just unload your AR / shotty / not so accurate anything for almost normal damage.

 

High Accuracy weapons usually trade raw DPS for their accuracy (higher >useable< DPS). The Dera is one of the few weapons that traded projectile velocity for it rather than actual dps, part of why I love it so much.

 

In addition, MOST (not all) weakpoints are unarmored, and armor really is the real problem here. Bullet Attractor all but forces you to shoot against an armored part regardless of how accurate you or your weapon are. That means it forces armor to apply (in the case of basically all Non-Corpus bosses minus Nef Anyo; Moas and Osprey are unarmored, and both Jackal and Hyena *might* be unarmored as well since they're also robots), which reduces your damage. It's not a gain of x2, it's a massive gain of x20 (to use the constant "shooting 900 armor" I usually "assume" when discussing efficiency of these things; 200% vs 10%).

 

Even if you give it a 4x, you still have to apply armor- and using that "shooting against 900" as the easiest standby, you're getting 40% instead of 200%, or a reduction of 80% (which is four fifths of your damage just gone).

 

 

It negates Sonar if it screws with the value of accuracy.

 

Who Cares? Maybe everyone who mains banshee? Maybe that random who though he'd play banshee just once for that boss fight because Sonar's giving him a 6.5x damage bonus on one spot? Maybe the guy with the Lanka or Snidal that was about to one-shot an enemy until you made it impossible to hit the orange splotch of doom? The point is Bullet Attractor removes the move that makes Banshee fun and good from her playbook as it all but prevents it from being useable on the aflicted target.

 

 

Yeah it does that on occasion, because it's supposed to make sniping fun (if you're using the right weapon; breaks the monotany of headshots by making you do trickshots for over 3x the damage). If you aren't using something that bypasses armor, aim for the usual weakpoint, and let your stray shots deal the bonus damage. Simple as that. Extremely High Accuracy AI weapons and Extremely Low Accuracy weapons benefit from Sonar.

 

Compare this to Bullet Attractor, where Low-Accuracy weapons benefit, and High-Accruacy weapons suffer. I didn't nerf your damage output by using sonar, but you nerfed mine by using BA. Basically declaring that not only was your DPS more important than mine, but that my ability to enjoy myself is meaningless.

 

 

And please don't say +500% for Sonar. It's 650% with Focus.

 

 

EDITS:

OH and I forgot. As much as sonar doesn't benefit the non-AP component of your damage, Piercing Hit goes from 60% to an effective 390%. Which is more than a headshot of normal+AP by itself (less than normal+AP+cold)- except on medium and heavy Grineer, who basically only take damage from AP (and other AI elements) in the first place.

 

 

Also, as much as I bag on the Braton's S#&$ accuracy, it's still accurate enough to hit the head on its own more than it'd gain from having bullet attractor guide its rounds into the brick wall that is armor. Seriously, only the Gorgon, Supra, and possibly Grakatta actually benefit from Bullet Attractor (in terms of guns).

 

Why are you opposed to making it step out of the way of high accuracy weapons and poeple first before tweaking it more? Do you think the ability *should* give them the finger?

Edited July 31, 2013 by TheBlueJelly