Molecular Prime In Relation To Other Abilities

[rksk16it]

Team play dude. As long as you all win, its all good. Everyone knows Nova's prime take all the credits so no one will blame you if you have a low kill count

 

Nope, its not team play, its watching a movie with team of 3 players total. The movie star is a Nova who kills some little things moving around far away and then struts around the map looking for orbs. Nobody cares about blaming, they care about "playing".

[DeathByDribbling]

Almost certainly they'll nerf the exposion damage/range of nova's ult so it can't chain like it does right now - then you've got something that still primes/slows everything but requires others to help make the kills.  That would encourage team work.

[Damagedice]

Nope, its not team play, its watching a movie with team of 3 players total. The movie star is a Nova who kills some little things moving around far away and then struts around the map looking for orbs. Nobody cares about blaming, they care about "playing".

This.

NO. ONE. CARES. About the actual number of kills in particular, no one is making it sound like Call of Duty. That's distorting the argument.

You play this game, centered around killing, to actually do it. You play the game to take part in it, and have fun. Going into a run and having nothing to do but watch nova insta-clear is like-- a bad movie. Nothing to do at all. How the hell is this defensible? 

Dudes be like: "I play nova to get all the kills." to "Guise kills don't even matter doe"

So, depriving the whole team of this shooting game from even getting to see more than two or three stray ancients. Defend it then, go.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Damagedice

[oremaster100]

If I may give my opinion on this matter (preferably without getting chewed out by anyone):

 

Perhaps a mechanic could be included in enemies that prevents any single source of damage, from an ability, from removing more than X% of an enemy's current health, but not prevent killing (i.e. If enemy has greater than 25% max hp, the ability cannot deal more than 90% of their current health, but full damage is dealt if health is 25% or less; this would not affect Saryn's poison ticks, as each tick is a separate source of damage)? This would prevent one-shot kills altogether, without heavily burdening players with extra work, they just have to use a little bit more effort (or button presses) to finish the enemies off. This wouldn't necessarily make enemies tougher, however, though the survivors could certainly get a bit of revenge on the Tenno who used the power.

 

Would this be an acceptable way to blunt the issue of insta-killed mobs, or would this cause more problems?

I love this idea, however it does raise a few problems. Say you are facing a low level infested charger, say with 100 max and remaining health. If a "1-hit room clear" ability is used and is only allowed to do enough damage to bring it down to 25% reamining health then that charger now has 25 health. Spending up to 100 energy for 75 damage is no where near worth it, so no one would use their powerful "1-hit room clear" abilities in low level missions. If we apply the same math to a high level Grineer heavy gunner who (per say) has 100,000 max and remaining health and a frame is (somehow) capable of dealing over 100,000 damage. If that frame uses their ability and gets rid of 75,000 health, the enemy still has 25k health which is far too much for any gun to reasonably take care of. I know all these numbers are made up, but i think I got the point across. Either the energy is wasted on doing not enough damage or the ability still leaves a strong enemy with too much health.

[oremaster100]

Yeah might need some reworking there..

 

I still get the feeling that a similar effect could be achieved - either as an interim, or a final solution - by simply keeping the powers effects as they are currently - cutting back on the ludicrous enemy armor / hp / shields scaling, and increasing the scarcity of energy. Make it so you're lucky to get off 3 ult's a match if that even. Would also help stress the utility of first or second slot powers - a lot of which get overlooked because no: 4 can kill everything so much more quickly for an energy cost that can quickly be regained. 

I also like the idea or rarer energy. I know for a fact (being a mag player) that being able to grab 4 orb and hit 4 to kill everything in a MASSIVE area is all too tempting. I use Pull to get enemies off the pod on rare occasion, and bullet attractor on bosses, but that is it. Many frames have great abilities in the 1-3 slots that don't get used. It would make for a lot more interesting team efforts to coordinate the use of multiple abilities in a short frame of time.

[oremaster100]

Team play dude. As long as you all win, its all good. Everyone knows Nova's prime take all the credits so no one will blame you if you have a low kill count

I now accept this fact. I think this post has gone in a new direction though. You are right, kills don't matter, but the execution of massive room clearing powers is too easy. Mag, Saryn, Nova, and a few others frames can hit 4 and kill many enemies. I would like to see a bit more depth in these ultimates. 

Also, I am sorry for the "spamming" of my replies, I am replying as I read.

[Estred]

There is no need to chage Prime. Nova is actually a very fun Warframe. If players honestly get upset over what she can do and really feel that worthless about seeing low kills or low damage then there is something else wrong.

 

I play my Nyx and man I love seeing 7% Damage output because I know that without me, doesn't matter what else you had your game would have been 5 times harder.

 

I play my Banshee and well, sure I spend time Sniping out Heavies and Ancients and usually have low kills, but bet you that my team thanks me for Sonar.

 

I play Nova and guess what? That M-Prime debuff helps us ALL kill heavies and ancients quickly and killing 1 removes the trash. So we can focus our fire on the "big guys" who can wreck our face. You ever had a level 140 Fusion Moa beam you? Yeah enjoy the dirt because your eating it really fast.

[DaveC]

I play Nova and guess what? That M-Prime debuff helps us ALL kill heavies and ancients quickly and killing 1 removes the trash. So we can focus our fire on the "big guys" who can wreck our face. You ever had a level 140 Fusion Moa beam you? Yeah enjoy the dirt because your eating it really fast.

The problem is, most Novas have long gone come wave 45, when you really might need them, normally boom, boom boom, gone at wave 15 or 20. So Novas are not helpful against level 140 fusion Moas, because they are not there. Plus when the enemies are level 300 and higher, to get a really good bang, Nova needs the support of another Killer waframe like Saryn, otherwise the reaction won't "chain" properly....when the enemies are level 400 and above, then Novas power is like lighting a damp box of fireworks.....it needs something more from another frame to make it go properly.

BUT, like I say, most Novas have long gone by then.....as for Level 140 Fusion Moas, well, they are not really difficult....don't need Novas to clear the chaff for those? I am afraid in the lower levels of defence, say up to wave 30 or 40, Novas simply come in and irritate, then leave when you really need them.

P.S. Why don't most Novas mark mod drops..too busy looking good?

Edited August 7, 2013 by DaveC

[Danakar]

<snip>

Stop playing with pugs then, and stop generalizing as if nobody except a Nova exhibits this behaviour. You're just grasping at straws now and making stuff up.

 

I always mark mod drops, regardless of the frame I'm currently playing on. It's usually the others who never talk, never bother to mark cards and vanish with the wind (and big surprise, most of them are NOT on Nova's). So it has NOTHING to do with 'most Novas'; so stop being such a bigot please.

[oremaster100]

There is no need to chage Prime. Nova is actually a very fun Warframe. If players honestly get upset over what she can do and really feel that worthless about seeing low kills or low damage then there is something else wrong.

 

I play my Nyx and man I love seeing 7% Damage output because I know that without me, doesn't matter what else you had your game would have been 5 times harder.

 

I play my Banshee and well, sure I spend time Sniping out Heavies and Ancients and usually have low kills, but bet you that my team thanks me for Sonar.

 

I play Nova and guess what? That M-Prime debuff helps us ALL kill heavies and ancients quickly and killing 1 removes the trash. So we can focus our fire on the "big guys" who can wreck our face. You ever had a level 140 Fusion Moa beam you? Yeah enjoy the dirt because your eating it really fast.

I absolutely think that Novas are useful assets to any team on high leveled high wave defense. If I can save some ammo by not killing the "trash" then by all means, prime them. The problem I encounter is that I often play in random matches with people who don't communicate. I will go into the match and before I start popping a crush every time a large group crosses my view, I ask the players "Do you mind if I use my crush ability a lot?" Their response is typically, "I don't care. It gets me affinity and helps the waves go by faster." However I keep all of Mag's abilities equipped just in case. People who go into a random match with only an ultimate equipped and spam it all the time are annoying when you only plan on going to wave 15-20.

[Erusa]

nobody actually suggested to people to kill other stuffs not in defense?

There's other game modes if you want to relish splinching baddies, and most likely play non PuG so rushers won't destroy your momentum.

Raid, Spy, Capture, and Rescue all have a near-unlimited wave of enemies which don't swarm around a single objective (although if you count how the Hostage can get itself stuck in places you have no idea why...).

People just want to feel good with the end, the means doesn't seem to matter to them.

The End Justifies The Means. (as how people love it most)

 

Although true I think that other "final" abilities need a buff, I mean I never really find Banshee's Soundquake amusing anywhere outside of a Defense...at least Loki's disarm can give people some breathing room without he being locked in place...

[rksk16it]

There's other game modes if you want to relish splinching baddies, and most likely play non PuG so rushers won't destroy your momentum.

 

If a player forma his weapon 3-4 times, pimps it with all the rare mods known to mankind, and then decides to shoot some real tough enemies, or say a group of enemies, then defense is the only solution.

[.Cupid]

lol i know the feeling when using bladestorm on ash i use it on a mob of maybe like 8 someone uses a wipe move and it pouts my skill to waste along with energy makes me cry a little q_q

[Gokuofuin]

I am very pleased with the constant addition of new warframes to the game. I think the the devs are doing a wonderful job. I think that one things needs to be altered with the new warframe, Nova. I personally am a huge fan of Mag. While playing defense i could rely mostly on crush in the low waves and rack up the kills. However with the introduction of Molecular Prime, I am no longer getting credit for all of my kills. I will activate crush and a Player using Nova will run up and Prime all the enemies. My crush ability then kills all the enemies and blows them up. I still receive my xp and all the important things, but in the end of the mission report and in my personal stats I don't get the credit for the kills. I will do a wave 10-15 defense and do roughly 45% of all the damage, but get only 7 kills. I know this isn't majorly game changing, but i think that if an enemy is killed by a player, that player should get the credit for the kill. 

 

Edit: After reading through this post for a while I have come to terms with the fact that end of mission stats don't matter. I think that my real problem with Nova (and Mag, Saryn, etc.) is that the ultimate ability on most frames is to easily and commonly spammed. The spamming of powerful ultimate abilities such as Molecular Prime takes away from the experience of other players unless their ONLY end goal is wave 100 Xini and maximum affinity. A good portion of the players want to use the guns they have worked so hard to rank up and mod. The spamming of "Hit 4 to clear room" abilities take away from that.

Clearly you value something that is of no value in the first place, unless you are the type of person who says "OMG LOOK AT HOW MANY KILLS I GOT GUYS!!" then screenshot it and post it all over the internet.....

Seriously we have bigger issues to deal with than peoples egos being deflated because after killing 1000 enemies, you don't get a piece of 'paper' saying you killed 600 of them.....

[Keltik0ne]

This whole thread is rubbish: a far more important "improvement" would be to fix the game to show just how much Trinity is saving all your butts.

 

Give a "healed" stat, so people can whine that Trinity is just too damn powerfull.

[oremaster100]

Clearly you value something that is of no value in the first place, unless you are the type of person who says "OMG LOOK AT HOW MANY KILLS I GOT GUYS!!" then screenshot it and post it all over the internet.....

Seriously we have bigger issues to deal with than peoples egos being deflated because after killing 1000 enemies, you don't get a piece of 'paper' saying you killed 600 of them.....

I said at the end of the original post "I know this is not majorly game changing." I do play with a friend most of the time and I do like to look at my kills and say i got X amount of kills. Nothing majorly important, nothing the Devs need to fix ASAP, but it is something that makes me ever so slightly happy that could be slightly improved. Also, the edit that you quoted states that i know that stats don't matter.

[oremaster100]

This whole thread is rubbish: a far more important "improvement" would be to fix the game to show just how much Trinity is saving all your butts.

 

Give a "healed" stat, so people can whine that Trinity is just too damn powerfull.

This thread has addressed that issue somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd page of posts when someone gave the idea of having a stat showing how much a players abilities effect a mob or team member. Thank you for your feedback though.

[11.11.11]

Just thought of an addition to the "rarer energy idea".

 

What if warframe implemented an energy system similar to the one in Dishonoured.

 

Ie: Frame energy regenerates, but only to a certain point. watch this to see what I mean. 

 

 

Swap energy orbs for mana potions - and make them significantly rarer, and bam. Ultimate's now have to  be used considerately, but utilities can be used often as long as the player is careful. On top of that, energy siphon is now de-throned as the only aura anyone competitive ever equips. 

[oremaster100]

Just thought of an addition to the "rarer energy idea".

 

What if warframe implemented an energy system similar to the one in Dishonoured.

 

Ie: Frame energy regenerates, but only to a certain point. watch this to see what I mean. 

 

 

Swap energy orbs for mana potions - and make them significantly rarer, and bam. Ultimate's now have to  be used considerately, but utilities can be used often as long as the player is careful. On top of that, energy siphon is now de-throned as the only aura anyone competitive ever equips. 

This would be a very interesting energy alternative to explore. It of course would not just simply copy paste over to warframe, but i think the basics of it would work fine.

[Estred]

The problem is, most Novas have long gone come wave 45, when you really might need them, normally boom, boom boom, gone at wave 15 or 20. So Novas are not helpful against level 140 fusion Moas, because they are not there. Plus when the enemies are level 300 and higher, to get a really good bang, Nova needs the support of another Killer waframe like Saryn, otherwise the reaction won't "chain" properly....when the enemies are level 400 and above, then Novas power is like lighting a damp box of fireworks.....it needs something more from another frame to make it go properly.

BUT, like I say, most Novas have long gone by then.....as for Level 140 Fusion Moas, well, they are not really difficult....don't need Novas to clear the chaff for those? I am afraid in the lower levels of defence, say up to wave 30 or 40, Novas simply come in and irritate, then leave when you really need them.

P.S. Why don't most Novas mark mod drops..too busy looking good?

well I suppose most Nova's aren't me. If I am told "Hey we want to go to wave 30-40" I will gladly stay around. Nothing aggravates me more than someone dropping for Heated Charge or another "common" mod at wave 15. I personally leave around 20 because I do not posses "max modded" equipment and I do not want to inflict that upon others.

 

Longest I have gone was wave 50 with myself on Nova, a Banshee, a Vaubin and a Sayrin. That was our team and it was a blast (literally and figuratively). I know I got a lot of kills form M-Prime but we all had fun and we all knew who did what and really, it was all of us who got the job done. We didn't care the Banshee had 8% Damage dealth because she was pot-shotting her Sonar targets to get max-crits off her Snipetron Vandal. She left the light-armor'd units to Sayrin and myself on Nova.

 

I guess my point is M-Prime doesn't need nerfed. Nova is the "flavor of the month" right now and the same thing happened with Vaubin. It's a fine ability and it does have team aspects. Yes, on low levels it obliterates but really if a player is getting upset because they have 7% damage and 50 kills just because Nova has 66% damage and 411 kills doesn't mean a thing. We all know Nova just obliterated the Light units that ANY damage-warframe can destroy in droves.

[rksk16it]

I must say, the number of "irritating/annoying" Nova players have drastically reduced, atleast in the pugs I get nowadays. I am getting lots of Nova players who are more than happy to NOT ult-spam or spawn-camp, and let others play. Some of them, themselves state this at start of the game that they wont ult-spam unless needed.

 

I wonder what caused this change ? Or maybe nothing changed at all, just the annoying kids got bored with FOTM while more mature players still play ... maybe :)

Edited August 8, 2013 by rksk16it

[Wolfstorm18]

Chuck Norris syndrome: "Uh, oh, I killed most enemies with my noobva ultimate pwnzord prime powerz". They forget Chuck Norris used guns, while them running around looks more like those japanese anime characters.

[Troublechutor]

People like to feel important/powerful... its part of why we play these games in the first place.

 

 

What we should all be aware of is that stats affect perceptions, and how we are perceived... you're skill in a game can determine how much weight your comments have with the community, this is normal... lets not pretend it doesn't happen or matter.

 

I can make a case for a bow user in defense missions being useful simply by putting lots of damage into targets and switching to a new target thereby increasing the ammo effeciency of the entire group and possibly extending their energy effeciency as a result... but when you look at those stats at the end of a failed mission, everyone is looking at your kill count to see how much/little you contributed...  Most damage dealt?  Who cares... did you kill anyone today?

 

However, endless stats minutia can be just as murky in determining who contributes what and when... and the real impact of any one player is measured by mission success or failure.  If there's only one good player on a team, and the other 3 spend 100% of their time just making sure that one guy keeps pushing forward... then they contributed as much as anyone to the success of the mission.  That won't be reflected by the stats at the end of the mission, its going to look like there was a hero-frame and 3 sponges... how would you capture stats on that to make the other 3 feel "good" about the experience?  Something they could be proud of?

 

There's a reason why Loki isn't popular in lots of game play scenarios, and its boils down to "no press 4 blow up world" button.  There's no stat for saves with switch teleport, or damage absorbed by decoys, or number of enemies disarmed.  You can't compete with an ember for kills, so where's your "loki did good" stat?

 

In the end, its important to give everyone that plays that sense of accomplishment, but how to do it in a way that doesn't imbalance the experience?  How about stats that reflect mission relevance?  Playing defense missions?  Kills/damage/healing metrics.  Playing Sabotage? track only the damage done to the machines, and add stats for the speed of clearing the mission (average room-clearing time rather than kills)  Playing spy, track number of stealth kills, numbers of alerted enemies, number of hacks, hack-speed, that sort of thing...

 

Don't just treat every mission type the same, and the stats will reflect more positively on frames/players who have different skills and means of contribution to mission success.

[oremaster100]

I guess my point is M-Prime doesn't need nerfed. Nova is the "flavor of the month" right now and the same thing happened with Vaubin. It's a fine ability and it does have team aspects. Yes, on low levels it obliterates but really if a player is getting upset because they have 7% damage and 50 kills just because Nova has 66% damage and 411 kills doesn't mean a thing. We all know Nova just obliterated the Light units that ANY damage-warframe can destroy in droves.

I am not asking for a nerf. The last thing that Nova needs is a nerf. I want more in depth ultimate abilities. I want more depth than "collect 4 orbs, hit4, win". This is the rhythm that a fair portion of players will use on a number of frames. I realize that a lot of people who reply to this thread are good players who don't ult spam or spawn camp, but we can't deny the existence of those behaviors.

 

People like to feel important/powerful... its part of why we play these games in the first place.

 

 

What we should all be aware of is that stats affect perceptions, and how we are perceived... you're skill in a game can determine how much weight your comments have with the community, this is normal... lets not pretend it doesn't happen or matter.

 

I can make a case for a bow user in defense missions being useful simply by putting lots of damage into targets and switching to a new target thereby increasing the ammo effeciency of the entire group and possibly extending their energy effeciency as a result... but when you look at those stats at the end of a failed mission, everyone is looking at your kill count to see how much/little you contributed...  Most damage dealt?  Who cares... did you kill anyone today?

 

However, endless stats minutia can be just as murky in determining who contributes what and when... and the real impact of any one player is measured by mission success or failure.  If there's only one good player on a team, and the other 3 spend 100% of their time just making sure that one guy keeps pushing forward... then they contributed as much as anyone to the success of the mission.  That won't be reflected by the stats at the end of the mission, its going to look like there was a hero-frame and 3 sponges... how would you capture stats on that to make the other 3 feel "good" about the experience?  Something they could be proud of?

 

There's a reason why Loki isn't popular in lots of game play scenarios, and its boils down to "no press 4 blow up world" button.  There's no stat for saves with switch teleport, or damage absorbed by decoys, or number of enemies disarmed.  You can't compete with an ember for kills, so where's your "loki did good" stat?

 

In the end, its important to give everyone that plays that sense of accomplishment, but how to do it in a way that doesn't imbalance the experience?  How about stats that reflect mission relevance?  Playing defense missions?  Kills/damage/healing metrics.  Playing Sabotage? track only the damage done to the machines, and add stats for the speed of clearing the mission (average room-clearing time rather than kills)  Playing spy, track number of stealth kills, numbers of alerted enemies, number of hacks, hack-speed, that sort of thing...

 

Don't just treat every mission type the same, and the stats will reflect more positively on frames/players who have different skills and means of contribution to mission success.

Thank you. This is perfectly worded. Finding a way to measure each players unique contribution to the mission would be absolutely fantastic.

Edited August 8, 2013 by oremaster100

[Estred]

I must say, the number of "irritating/annoying" Nova players have drastically reduced, atleast in the pugs I get nowadays. I am getting lots of Nova players who are more than happy to NOT ult-spam or spawn-camp, and let others play. Some of them, themselves state this at start of the game that they wont ult-spam unless needed.

 

I wonder what caused this change ? Or maybe nothing changed at all, just the annoying kids got bored with FOTM while more mature players still play ... maybe :)

I suspect that you are now seeing more Nova's who play like I do. M-Prime at low levels is an "Oh @#$% button" not a means to steal the glory. We saw the same thing happen with Troll-Vaubins or well... Trollbins.