A Legitimate Change To Puncture Mods... (Touching Lightly On The Enemy Armor Subject Too)

[Zeally]

Ok, so in light of a whole slew of topics I've noticed popping up, in regards to the the puncture mods in general, and armor scaling in regards to "end game" content.

 

One example of said topics: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/88061-so-about-that-armor-scaling-thingidea-inside-v/

-Only reason I'm making my own separate topic is that I felt this one got derailed and that I wanted to point out how I felt about it with specific points.

 

I believe giving the puncture mods some where between 20% and 50% armor ignore, would stem a lot of hate for puncture mods in general, and would also relieve a lot of tensions in the effectiveness of weapons when you start going up against enemies in the higher tiers of content. I say this, because most of the weapons that don't have armor ignore, generally have some better traits specific to them. Giving them half of, or somewhere in between what current armor ignore weapons have would still keep them differentiated, and the weapons that have full armor ignore would still retain that as their trait.

 

Why?

- You are literally shooting through your targets, so it makes sense.

- It would make the mod worth slotting in most people's eyes that currently believe its not, mostly due to energy cost.

- It being a mod, only makes it mandatory for going up against "end game" content.

- It would enable most of the currently released ranged weapons usable in "end game" effectively or at least bring them closer to being on par with full armor ignore weapons.

 

Rather than tearing into me for suggesting such a thing, I'd rather see people discuss where a change like this might lead, or not lead. If it turns out that this isn't such a bad suggestion, I'll go through and quote replies, adding them to this first post so that they aren't difficult to find, being that they are good positive/negative points to the effectiveness of this change.

 

Edit: Modified topic name.

Edit2: I realized I might have piggybacked off another topic, so I added a link to it. I've been up far too long, and I also felt that the topic got a little derailed.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Zeally

[Ninjamander]

I like this

[Destro6677]

Finally, a reason to equip puncture.

 

How would it measure up to other 'end game' mods like multishot, serration, point blank, etc?

 

Would a points rebalance be in order?

[Syius]

yes if we shot through mobs that mean we pierce they armor so part of base dmg should be changed to armor piercing but if you shot through target, bullet wont deform and stuck in tissue, wasting vital organs and things, so that mean less dmg

Edited August 1, 2013 by Syius

[AureusVulpes]

I can get behind this, though, if Syius' idea gets used, the puncture range needs a small boost. The final target hit should take normal damage.

[Lulzes]

Personally, I don't see the need for separate "armor piercing" and "puncture" mods. AP means that you punch a hole in armor - you PUNCTURE it. The two types of mods are duplicate, and should be merged - as I understand it, the current Puncture mods are scaled by the distance through cover the bullet travels (0.1 being 0.1 metres or 10cm). So, an AP value of 10% should give 0.1m of puncture.

 

How a gun can be modded with puncture - its bullets literally punching through so many cm of *whatever* - and NOT have AP by default is beyond me.

[zumbledum]

i Honestly think puncture mods are fine as is. i think the 2 main reasons they get hate is because either they are being slotted on weapons that they dont work on , supra dera boltor etc and because they take a while to get used to using.

 

id agree they could be a little cheaper or a small increase in puncture but they already offer unique utility dont feel thats where they are lacking.

[Aure7]

puncture mods are fine, just need a little less cost and a little more puncture range with each level

[101blubb]

Personally, I don't see the need for separate "armor piercing" and "puncture" mods. AP means that you punch a hole in armor - you PUNCTURE it. The two types of mods are duplicate, and should be merged - as I understand it, the current Puncture mods are scaled by the distance through cover the bullet travels (0.1 being 0.1 metres or 10cm). So, an AP value of 10% should give 0.1m of puncture.

 

How a gun can be modded with puncture - its bullets literally punching through so many cm of *whatever* - and NOT have AP by default is beyond me.

 

That'd make AP mods even more OP in comparison to other elements.

 

To OP: While I can see the logic, I have to say that implementing such a suggestion would require a major weapon balance overhaul. If we take the current endgame sidearms, Acrid and Despair, you will see that they have really good base stats aside from also being Poison (= AI) and AP. You'd have to make other weapons significantly better in order to compensate for that.

[AureusVulpes]

If we take the current endgame sidearms, Acrid and Despair, you will see that they have really good base stats aside from also being Poison (= AI) and AP. You'd have to make other weapons significantly better in order to compensate for that.

 

This is a very good point. All that DoT damage....ohgod.

[inthephonebox]

I agree that they need work. I actually like the idea of merging AP and Puncture mods together in a new mod similar to the nightmare mods. It makes sense for the abilities to play off each other and I would not be opposed to the mod also lower the damage to pierced targets. 

I would still keep the original mods and just add this to the nightmare rares. 

[Zeally]

That'd make AP mods even more OP in comparison to other elements.

 

To OP: While I can see the logic, I have to say that implementing such a suggestion would require a major weapon balance overhaul. If we take the current endgame sidearms, Acrid and Despair, you will see that they have really good base stats aside from also being Poison (= AI) and AP. You'd have to make other weapons significantly better in order to compensate for that.

 

Neither of those weapons are hitscan, so neither of them would benefit from the puncture part of the mod. They also have travel time/projectile falloff, and their own benefits aside from having high damage.

 

Giving the puncture mod some form of AI would bring all the weapons without AI closer to their potency.

 

Well... maybe not as close to how strong the Acrid is, but you understand what I mean.

[101blubb]

I would still keep the original mods and just add this to the nightmare rares. 

 

The problem with this would be how terribly skewed the current values for Puncture are. They are barely enough to penetrate the shoulder of a Grineer  - people would use these mods just to stack even more AP dmg instead of using it for the Puncture.

 

Neither of those weapons are hitscan, so neither of them would benefit from the puncture part of the mod. They also have travel time/projectile falloff, and their own benefits aside from having high damage.

 

Giving the puncture mod some form of AI would bring all the weapons without AI closer to their potency.

 

Well... maybe not as close to how strong the Acrid is, but you understand what I mean.

 

Yeah - but why would I use a weapon that needs a mod in order to be competitive when I could just use a weapon I could stack even more damage on without the need for a specific mod? That's what I meant when I talked about having to up the base stats of other weapons.

 

Edit: I just realized this is an issue only minmaxers would really care about - if you don't belong to that group... well... enjoy yourself then.

Edited August 1, 2013 by 101blubb

[Zeally]

The problem with this would be how terribly skewed the current values for Puncture are. They are barely enough to penetrate the shoulder of a Grineer  - people would use these mods just to stack even more AP dmg instead of using it for the Puncture.

 

All the puncture mods penetrate 0.6 meters at max rank.. That is roughly nearly 3 feet, and is plenty enough to penetrate multiple enemies traveling in a line.

[101blubb]

All the puncture mods penetrate 0.6 meters at max rank.. That is roughly nearly 3 feet, and is plenty enough to penetrate multiple enemies traveling in a line.

 

You'd have to excuse my pitiful knowledge about those (rather silly) imperial units but isn't 1 inch = 2.54 cm -> 1 foot = 12 inches = 30 cm -> 0.6 m = 60 cm = 2 feet?

 

Also, being able to "penetrate multiple enemies traveling in a line" just doesn't add up with my personal experience - but i'll be damned if I don't check for myself.

Edited August 1, 2013 by 101blubb

[Zeally]

Yeah - but why would I use a weapon that needs a mod in order to be competitive when I could just use a weapon I could stack even more damage on without the need for a specific mod? That's what I meant when I talked about having to up the base stats of other weapons.

 

Edit: I just realized this is an issue only minmaxers would really care about - if you don't belong to that group... well... enjoy yourself then.

 

I think a better question is, why wouldn't you want a mod that allows you to shoot through your target (or his cover) with the possibility to also hit multiple other targets, with the benefit of at least some form of armor ignore.

 

 

You'd have to excuse my pitiful knowledge about those (rather silly) imperial units but isn't 1 inch = 2.54 cm -> 1 foot = 12 inches = 30 cm -> 0.6 m = 60 cm = 2 feet?

 

Also, being able to "penetrate multiple enemies traveling in a line" just doesn't add up with my personal experience - but i'll be damned if I don't check for myself.

 

Woops, I blundered. But either way, that 2 feet still seems to work wonders.

 

If I need to I'll get a friend of mine to do some recording of me shooting through grouped swarms of enemies.

[101blubb]

shooting through grouped swarms of enemies.

 

From what I've gathered they used to be that way back in CB - I wasn't around back then. I'm currently having a hard time hitting more than two Grineer with 0.6 m Puncture with CT-/headshots.

 

Anyway, that's more of a numbers-issue that can be easily fixed.

 

 

I think a better question is, why wouldn't you want a mod that allows you to shoot through your target (or his cover) with the possibility to also hit multiple other targets, with the benefit of at least some form of armor ignore.

 

Hitting one enemy for full damage is ALWAYS more beneficial than hitting two enemies for half damage - unless there's some gimmick like "targets have to die at the same time". Your idea about having Puncture give a %AI is logical, it'd just require a tad more work than just adding a line of code to Puncture-mods.

Edited August 1, 2013 by 101blubb

[Zeally]

From what I've gathered they used to be that way back in CB - I wasn't around back then. I'm currently having a hard time hitting more than two Grineer with 0.6 m Puncture with CT-/headshots.

 

Anyway, that's more of a numbers-issue that can be easily fixed.

 

 

 

Hitting one enemy for full damage is ALWAYS more beneficial than hitting two enemies for half damage - unless there's some gimmick like "targets have to die at the same time". Your idea about having Puncture give a %AI is logical, it'd just require a tad more work than just adding a line of code to Puncture-mods.

In CB, yes the puncture mod was much more potent, and I can see why it is scaled back so much.

 

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the second part of your post though as there isn't any damage loss with how the current puncture mechanic works.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Zeally

[Aizeol]

Again, I am going to adamantly disagree for the time being because the issue that NEEDS to be solved is armor scaling.

I agree that puncture should give a slight damage boost to the first target hit, but please don't add armor ignore until the armor problem is actually solved. Adding armor ignore at this point will just be diverting attention and making another necessary mod for high-level play. I'm not ok with either of those.

Please, stop asking for this until armor scaling is resolved. Go here: Relkin's Armor Overhaul, for an awesome redesign of the armor in the game.

As far as puncture goes, correct me if I'm wrong but piercing bullets actually end up doing less damage than bullets that stay in the target. Especially if those bullets become shrapnel or are hollow-point. Using this logic, puncture should nerf damage for the ability to hit multiple targets in a line.

[101blubb]

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the second part of your post though as there isn't any damage loss with how the current puncture mechanics works.

 

 

This diagram shows you the relative effectiveness of armor/resistance on relative DPS. Most of the mobs we're dealing with have anything in between 60% - 99% reduction to DPS, meaning that an addition of %AI (figure shows 50% AI) would increase the damage to about 63% - 25%. In order to make a weapon reliant on that %AI/Puncture mod competitive with an AI weapon that cannot use this mod, you'd have to hit an average of 1.5-4 enemies per shot for it to achieve the same amount of DPS. That'd require obscene amounts of Puncture for it to be worth it. You'd also have to consider that you're expending a modslot on something that could be replaced by a damage increasing mod on any AI weapon.

 

What I wanted to say is: Focusing down an enemy with an AI weapon dealing 100% relative DPS will always be better than spreading the damage on multiple targets with a non-AI weapon carrying your mod - which'd effectively be the result of your proposition. There are exceptions to that rule. Any highdmg AI weapon (Lanka) will tend to deal quite a lot of overkill to most enemies - that's wasted damage.

 

Edit:

 

w/ innate AI -> rel. DPS = const = 1

w/o innate AI, no AImod -> rel. DPS = exp(-kA); k = const; A = armor

w/o innate AI, X% AImod -> rel. DPS = exp(-kA*(1-0.X))

Edited August 1, 2013 by 101blubb

[Volt_Cruelerz]

While your idea makes logical sense, I'd still rather puncture be based upon the base damage of a single bullet and be multiplicative (I think that was Vaskadar's idea?)

 

Combining the this with his idea would make puncture very valuable indeed.  Obviously the numbers he gave would need to be toned down if combined with an effect like this, but it would definitely make puncture something to keep around.

[Ninjamander]

Hope this thread will get more attention =<

[Ob1Kn00b]

The problem with this would be how terribly skewed the current values for Puncture are. They are barely enough to penetrate the shoulder of a Grineer  - people would use these mods just to stack even more AP dmg instead of using it for the Puncture.

 

 

Yeah - but why would I use a weapon that needs a mod in order to be competitive when I could just use a weapon I could stack even more damage on without the need for a specific mod? That's what I meant when I talked about having to up the base stats of other weapons.

 

Edit: I just realized this is an issue only minmaxers would really care about - if you don't belong to that group... well... enjoy yourself then.

 

"why would I use a weapon that needs a mod in order to be competitive..."

 

You just gave a reason for other weapons to be buffed in comparison to the 'endgame' ones.