Issues With "the Grind"

[Cradicias]

So, I've been playing Warframe for quite some time, spent more than my fair share of money on platinum and became a Grand Master level Founder. I can honestly say, I've done everything in this game (up to this point). It's become more and more painfully apparent that this game, while quite entertaining, has a serious problem with using "the grind" in place of content. Rather than providing new missions or systems, we're given new items to grind the same old missions over, and over, and over, and over (and this can go on for a -long- time, in the case of the unlucky majority), until we get the desired object.  

 

Now, again, I'd like to preface this by saying I -love- what Digital Extremes has done with this game. It's entertaining and makes me feel like a bad &#! every time I go out there and kick butt. But this element of constant mission running without any guarantee of the reward you seek is -killing- me. I've spent -so- much platinum on Void keys trying to get the latest Prime weapons and have been rewarded with what feels like a billion Fang Prime Handles. And, I know, random loot rolls equals no guarantees, but, that's just the problem. It's become the trend with games these days to fill time with grinding for gear without any guarantee of success or a "deadline" so to speak.

 

This means you can go in with the hopes of getting, say, a Paris Prime Grip, do one -thousand- runs, and -never- see it. And that to me is a bad business strategy. Not only do you &!$$ off the little guys who can't afford much platinum and the people with limited time, but you also alienate them in that if they -could- get what they wanted after a prearranged amount of effort, they'd be more than happy to put in the time. Even if that time was say 100 runs? I guarantee, if people -knew- they'd get their desired reward once they did something 100 times, they'd run it till they were worn and ragged. A light at the end of the tunnel can be a big motivator. So, in closing, DE? Love you guys, but, please, can we do something about this?

Edited August 2, 2013 by Cradicias

[CrazyCanadian24]

I approve of this message.

[Exellorate]

I'll have to agree with this post as well. As somebody who has been grinding for a Banshee (And a Nova before that. And that took 50+ runs in total to get even get that), it's pretty disheartening to see something have such a low drop rate, and knowing that it's possible to never actually get what you're looking for. Banshee's parts having something like a 3 - 7% chance of dropping randomly. 
This is something that really needs looking in to.

[virgatetomb]

Bump

[DominusKaiser]

I have to agree,I been on the game since some time with 200+ hours almost 300 at the moment and I do my best effort to keep playing out of the boresome grinding,Ive got even after getting almost everything I went for the master founder pack(wich I think I gotta wait till next update to have the title on my forum account,Im not sure why it doesn't show up.) since I wanted to support the game and get to be "part" of it but yeah the grinding and repetitive gameplay is getting not only to me but clan members aswell and believe me I do what I can to keep going with void keys,bosses,mod farming runs and such to not repeat so much.

Edited August 2, 2013 by DominusKaiser

[Cleesus]

Good post my friend.

[RaaTheGodEater]

No, I like the grind because when you do finally get what you were looking for, it's rewarding. The only thing I agree with is we need new missions before new items. There's "a chance you'll never get the item you're looking for", true, but when you keep looking the chance becomes so low it starts to approach zero. 3-7% item drop isn't very low, people, and this game is actually one of the most forgiving I've played in terms of rare item drops. Try playing games were the rarest items drop 0.5% of the time. THAT'S excruciating. 

 

Also why are you spending so much platinum on Void keys? I was farming for a Banshee helmet on Valefor and ended up with like 30 of them, including 4 Tier III's. They were a reward like 90% of the time. 

[Cradicias]

 

Also why are you spending so much platinum on Void keys? I was farming for a Banshee helmet on Valefor and ended up with like 30 of them, including 4 Tier III's. They were a reward like 90% of the time. 

Mainly because the new Prime weapons only drop in the new Void missions, which don't really drop as rewards as far as I've seen. I usually only get Raids and Exterminates of varying tiers.

 

Also, that 3-7% chance is per run, so, the actual percentage is much lower when looked at as a whole, cause, you have to look at how many of those runs actually failed to drop the item compared to how many dropped it.

[RaaTheGodEater]

Mainly because the new Prime weapons only drop in the new Void missions, which don't really drop as rewards as far as I've seen. I usually only get Raids and Exterminates of varying tiers. 

 

ah, okay

 

 

Also, that 3-7% chance is per run, so, the actual percentage is much lower when looked at as a whole, cause, you have to look at how many of those runs actually failed to drop the item compared to how many dropped it.

That's not how probability works. In fact that's the complete opposite.

 

Okay, so say it's a 3-7% chance to get a 7 when you roll a pair of dice (which it isn't, it's 16.67%, but for the sake of argument let's assume it is). You roll the dice once, chances of you getting a 7 once is 3-7%. If you roll it more times, 10, 20, 50 times, chances of you getting a 7 at least once rise dramatically. The overall probability of you getting an item you're farming for at least once rises each time you do a mission to obtain that item (or "roll the dice").

 

Edited August 2, 2013 by RaaTheGodEater

[Lavanite]

After depleting my 300+ hours storage of plastids and neurodes, being forced to grind for them made me realize how much this has really bothered everyone else.

 

Currently I'm stuck grinding 50+ runs every 12h to meet the quota of plastids I need to build continuously. If I didn't take advantage of that time when control module droprate bugged, this would have been much, much worse. I'll leave the details out for now, but I want to emphasize this is a big deal. Especially since I remember someone on the dev team saying something like "we don't want grinding as endgame" on one of the livestreams. It's ironic.

 

DE, I know you're trying your best here, but please. This is tedious amounts of hit & miss grind.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Lavanite

[RaaTheGodEater]

After depleting my 300+ hours storage of plastids and neurodes, being forced to grind for them made me realize how much this has really bothered everyone else.

 

Currently I'm stuck grinding 50+ runs every 12h to meet the quota of plastids I need to build continuously. If I didn't take advantage of that time when control module droprate bugged, this would have been much, much worse. I'll leave the details out for now, but I want to emphasize this is a big deal. Especially since I remember someone on the dev team saying something like "we don't want grinding as endgame" on one of the livestreams. It's ironic.

 

DE, I know you're trying your best here, but please. This is tedious amounts of hit & miss grind.

Yeah, I can agree that the grind on materials is ridiculous, especially plastids, which are required in a looooooot of blueprints and only drop in small amounts. 

[Cradicias]

Actually, that -is- how probability works. It's not stacking, you don't -increase- your chances each time you try. It's 3-7% chance -every- time. Which means if you spreadsheet it and average it out and, let's say you ran that mission 50 times and -finally- got it to drop one time. That means you take 1 and divide it by 50, that means if it was a static number? It'd be 0.02% chance of drop. Now, we know that number -isn't- static, it's randomized each time. That means it could be a -lot- worse, or you might get lucky. It's really not a good system for rewarding effort.

 

Edit: As a side note, I've lost track of how many tier 1-3 capture and mobile defense missions I've ran, but, I know it's over 50. I've not gotten a single instance of Paris Prime Grip or the Braton Prime Barrel, that technically puts the drop rate for -me- at 0%. 

Edited August 2, 2013 by Cradicias

[Exellorate]

I really liked this topic. Have a bump, Sir. 

[BadAimbot]

I'm fine with grinding but too much of it based on RNG and cheesing both low and high level content.

[RaaTheGodEater]

Actually, that -is- how probability works. It's not stacking, you don't -increase- your chances each time you try. It's 3-7% chance -every- time. Which means if you spreadsheet it and average it out and, let's say you ran that mission 50 times and -finally- got it to drop one time. That means you take 1 and divide it by 50, that means if it was a static number? It'd be 0.02% chance of drop. Now, we know that number -isn't- static, it's randomized each time. That means it could be a -lot- worse, or you might get lucky. It's really not a good system for rewarding effort.

 

No, that works on a bell curve. Chances are out of 50 tries you're going to obtain the item 1ish to 4ish times. You might get none, or you might get 10, but those are outliers. You're not changing the chance to drop because you only got it one time out of 50 (which is 2% not 0.02%), it's still 3.5 to 7%.

 

To put it another way, if you flip a coin 4 times and get 3 tails and 1 heads, you got tails 75% of the time, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a 50% chance of getting tails. 

 

I think you're confusing what I'm actually saying. What I'm saying is the more you keep doing that mission, the surer you are to get at least one. Basically, keep farming and you'll get it. But what you said (the total percentage as a whole is much lower) is wrong. It IS 3.5-7% probability. You may in actuality get it 1% of the time, but hell, you could also get it 10% of the time. But the fact is that out of 100 instances your actual number will hover around 3.5 - 7. 

[SoanoS]

I think the game should be renamed to Warfarm. :o

 

But yes, agreeing with the OP about the grind.

 

So much time spend doing the same map over and over and over and over and over and over again that once I am done with this Seer Receiver, I don't want to see another Grineer cave for a month. Then I will need to farm Hyena for those Control modules (Was taking a break from game when the drop rate was bugged so I don't have hundreds of them) over and over and over and over and over until I never want to see Hyena and his indoor corpus level again. Then I will probably help my friend to farm for Nova in a Corpus outdoor map over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again until I will never want to see another Corpus outdoor level again...

 

Wait a second... See where this is going? After so much grinding on the same map over and over and over again a lot of people will probably get so tired of the repetition and the sheer tedium of the endless grind that they will lose interest completely.

[Sammy001]

@op Sure mate, gave you +1, but really what's the point ? We've seen so many posts now from people raging or trying to stay calm like yourself with exactly the same message. We all know why the rng is there and why it is constructed like a slot machine. I cut my losses and only play this game because some friends ask me to join them.

 

I joined after 7.x and I liked it back then, had some refreshing ideas. Shame really.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Sammy001

[JollierThanThou]

No, that works on a bell curve. Chances are out of 50 tries you're going to obtain the item 1ish to 4ish times. You might get none, or you might get 10, but those are outliers. You're not changing the chance to drop because you only got it one time out of 50 (which is 2% not 0.02%), it's still 3.5 to 7%.

 

To put it another way, if you flip a coin 4 times and get 3 tails and 1 heads, you got tails 75% of the time, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a 50% chance of getting tails. 

 

I think you're confusing what I'm actually saying. What I'm saying is the more you keep doing that mission, the surer you are to get at least one. Basically, keep farming and you'll get it. But what you said (the total percentage as a whole is much lower) is wrong. It IS 3.5-7% probability. You may in actuality get it 1% of the time, but hell, you could also get it 10% of the time. But the fact is that out of 100 instances your actual number will hover around 3.5 - 7. 

It also means that, if 2500 players run T3 Void 100 times each, there's likely to be one unlucky Tenno who never got a Braton Prime barrel.

[Bakercompany86]

So, I've been playing Warframe for quite some time, spent more than my fair share of money on platinum and became a Grand Master level Founder. I can honestly say, I've done everything in this game (up to this point). It's become more and more painfully apparent that this game, while quite entertaining, has a serious problem with using "the grind" in place of content. Rather than providing new missions or systems, we're given new items to grind the same old missions over, and over, and over, and over (and this can go on for a -long- time, in the case of the unlucky majority), until we get the desired object.  

 

Now, again, I'd like to preface this by saying I -love- what Digital Extremes has done with this game. It's entertaining and makes me feel like a bad &#! every time I go out there and kick butt. But this element of constant mission running without any guarantee of the reward you seek is -killing- me. I've spent -so- much platinum on Void keys trying to get the latest Prime weapons and have been rewarded with what feels like a billion Fang Prime Handles. And, I know, random loot rolls equals no guarantees, but, that's just the problem. It's become the trend with games these days to fill time with grinding for gear without any guarantee of success or a "deadline" so to speak.

 

This means you can go in with the hopes of getting, say, a Paris Prime Grip, do one -thousand- runs, and -never- see it. And that to me is a bad business strategy. Not only do you &!$$ off the little guys who can't afford much platinum and the people with limited time, but you also alienate them in that if they -could- get what they wanted after a prearranged amount of effort, they'd be more than happy to put in the time. Even if that time was say 100 runs? I guarantee, if people -knew- they'd get their desired reward once they did something 100 times, they'd run it till they were worn and ragged. A light at the end of the tunnel can be a big motivator. So, in closing, DE? Love you guys, but, please, can we do something about this?

 

 

I'm only about....19 hours in? Maybe 20?  And this game already feels grindy.

 

Grinding is typically what we see when devs have trouble creating content *or* when they have good content, and want you to take as much time as possible going through it (or repeating it).

 

This game has good content.  Beautiful levels, fun missions, fun gameplay.  But they added the "grind" to keep you in it, because this game is so fast paced you can blow through a mission in minutes (that probably took them a month or more to create).

[Cradicias]

 

This game has good content.  Beautiful levels, fun missions, fun gameplay.  But they added the "grind" to keep you in it, because this game is so fast paced you can blow through a mission in minutes (that probably took them a month or more to create).

 

I couldn't agree more that it has beautiful content. Problem is the fact that it's very limited. Missions are procedurally generated,, so, that does at -least- keep maps feeling somewhat fresh each time, but the problem is more in the mission -content-. They're taking the right step in removing some of the less used mission types and making new stuff, now what we need to see are more variety. New enemy groups, more story behind -why- the Tenno are even fighting these people at all. I'm sorry, but, if I popped out of a cryopod with my memory gone, I wouldn't just start working for some lady that talks in my head. I'd be like "WHO DA HELL ARE YOU?! LEAVE ME ALONE!" Give us some incentive. Other than that, the biggest problem is the title of this topic. There's just too much grind with no real end in sight. People would like to know that their efforts earn them something, and I've seen too many people getting frustrated with running the same boss for nights on end with no drop of the item they're looking for.

 

Some kind of system needs to be setup to help them get that -one- piece they're looking for. Hell, get the dojo system involved. If someone in your clan has the last part you need, let them trade the item to them. Or, do ya one better. Have a cooperative Foundry setup in the Dojo. Say someone wants to build a Banshee? (Looking at you, Exellorate) My buddy could go in, queue up a build for the Banshee, and then any clan member could contribute blueprints and material towards that build. Can't get that helmet drop but so-and-so got it last week? He dumps in the helmet blueprint and everyone helps complete that as well. Things like this idea would go a long way towards relieving the grind and making everyone feel like a community.

[Cradicias]

 

I think you're confusing what I'm actually saying. What I'm saying is the more you keep doing that mission, the surer you are to get at least one. Basically, keep farming and you'll get it. But what you said (the total percentage as a whole is much lower) is wrong. It IS 3.5-7% probability. You may in actuality get it 1% of the time, but hell, you could also get it 10% of the time. But the fact is that out of 100 instances your actual number will hover around 3.5 - 7. 

Don't wanna keep going back and forth on this, but, the plain fact of the matter is that no matter what you say? That 3-7% percent will never -feel- like 3-7% unless you get lucky. And just plainly? Most people aren't. Most people will run that mission 100 times and never see a single drop. You know what that means? They had a 0% drop rate. Each time you run it doesn't increase your chance, it's still 3-7% chance. No matter how many times you say it, you -do- have to look at it as a spreadsheet and calculate it on a per person basis. If John Somebody ran it 1000 times and got the item once, that's a nearly nonexistant drop rate and it needs to be fixed.

[Bakercompany86]

I'm perfectly okay with grinds when they lead me somewhere more fun.

 

 

Hell I played Diablo II for a decade, grinding out levels and gear.  So this games grind is nothing.  

 

But I don't want it to lead to an endgame that is simply more grinding.

 

So how would DE fix this?  They have an excellent platform to work with that's for sure.

 

So what we need are things you can repeat ad infinitum.  This is why people still play Horde in Gears of War, and Mass Effect 3 multiplayer.

 

So what can DE make here that would add infinite replayability that is fun?  They've sworn off PVP, so that's a no go, and half the community doesn't want it anyway.

 

A horde mode is a safe bet.  People already play endless defense (which is Horde mode) and enjoy it.  I love it actually.  I say work with that a lot more and evolve it into something amazing.  Same goes for mobile defense.

 

There should be a few game modes/missions like that.  Something we can all repeat when our Frames and Weapons are completely maxed out.  And there should be rewards for this.  Obviously new gear isn't what the reward should be, at that point you'll have all of that.  Plus the new gear grind is what keeps us revisiting older content.

 

Which also reminds me, this game needs scaling difficulty....that way people aren't farming joke content with uber warframes.  There are balance issues with that (like if you end up in a game as a level 5 and your squadmate is level 30, which way should it scale?)  But there are ways around that (like group level caps).

[Cradicias]

They actually included Nightmare mode in Update 9. Once you completely clear a planetary system, you get nightmarish versions of the existing levels to play again with unique mod rewards and tougher opponents. Lower level areas are jokingly easy still, but, the higher level zones I can imagine being scary.

[Bakercompany86]

They actually included Nightmare mode in Update 9. Once you completely clear a planetary system, you get nightmarish versions of the existing levels to play again with unique mod rewards and tougher opponents. Lower level areas are jokingly easy still, but, the higher level zones I can imagine being scary.

 

From what i'm reading the population generally doesn't like what they've done.  Which from my understanding wasn't very creative and was merely removing conveniences that exist in the games mechanics to create artificial difficulty.

 

I'd rather see more creativity than this.  Blizzard did the same thing by creating heroic versions of old dungeons in WoW. But that only works within the context of a game entirely based off power creep.  I believe we want to get Warframe away from that.  I know I do anyway.

 

 

I'd like to see some new intense and difficult mission open up after clearing a planet that is similar to endless defense, only tweaked to not be exactly like endless defense.  I know that doesn't make much sense, but i'd need to sit down with a team of us and pencil/paper to really design something great.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Mietz]

You know, back in the days of WF when bosses dropped less random loot and we had smaller loot tables (no Dojo research mats, etc) the game played a lot better.

 

It played more in the direction of Monster Hunter, which is also a grinding game, however MH has the logic of getting materials of specific monsters to then craft and progress varying types of items (weapons, armors). WF essentially did the same thing, the bosses relatively consistently dropped blueprints for items you wanted to get and hence you played the missions for completion. WF just needed to have a bit more challenge and it would have become a nice challenge based MH with space ninjas, but no, we can't have that.

 

If the game could possibly, maybe, return to that philosophy we would make the gameplay a lot better. However, I see no chance of this happening as now mats are on the market for RM and it seems that WF is going more the route of other loot'n boot RPGs where you just grind S#&$ to grind more S#&$ to grind even more S#&$.