Failure And Aborting Punishment Needs To Be Changed Into Less Hostile

[Pave]

Well, third time the charm, as they say.

 

We're seeing an odd pattern: Whenever there is a valid support for removing this punishment, the thread gets instantly locked...

 

 

Anyways, here's to hope there will actual response from the Warframe-developement-team this time around.

 

Let's continue where we left off.

These Update & Build Notes is highly suggested to read through once again, before posting here; we're not living in April 2013-time anymore and the game has been improved and fixed a lot since.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pave

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-1, inb4 lock

[Katakuna]

[Ryoken]

DE gives you 4 resurrects a day per Warframe.  You are not being punished for failure.  They are giving you a chance.    DE has given you the tools to be successful.  You have weapons, frames, and friends to help get you through a mission.  You are not being punished for a failure, you are instead given many chances to succeed despite your potential failure. 

 

As for aborting, if you go and take your drivers test, complete half of it, walk away and call it a day, do you get half a license?  You are not being punished for quitting, you are just walking away from your potential rewards. 

 

I read your last two threads and while I do not agree with them, I hope you understand that DE is not trying to punish you.  They are making the game approachable while rewarding you for your success. 

[Aramahn]

Nothing has changed. People would still quit every mission the moment the objective is complete. Which is lame. It was a good fix when they implemented it.

[theammostore]

Maybe your threads wouldn't be locked if you weren't spamming them...

[Sketchymandan]

Are ou sayin that you want to reward from Finishin, for not finishing?

[Pave]

*about revives and driving-licenses*

 

Sad that the Revives only affect the downed Tenno in question though instead of Hostages, Defending Objects, and Time Limits to name few non-Tenno objects. Not to mention the Revives won't reset the stages /levels /map into state that you could complete them, if / when you get stuck in numerous ways due glitches...

 

----------------------

Funny how many times non-video-game examples are being brought up here as arguments; last time I remember mentioning something about video-games, they were escapism and not reality-simulators, especially the games that didn't aim to be simulators...

 

Another thing is that I actually paid for my driving lessons instead of being paid by my behalf. So, it makes one to wonder why would I suddenly walk away from the test after paying that ridiculous amount of money for getting the lesson and license. Off-topical, but eh...whateva.

 

 

Are ou sayin that you want to reward from Finishin, for not finishing?

People keep saying that "no game" allows you to keep items you've gotten via missions, if you fail or abort the mission.

It's sad to know then that most of them probably haven't played games such as Phantasy Star Online or Monster Hunter then, not to mention PSO is said to be a great inspiration for various things found this game (Sentinels and level layout randomization being two examples).

Yes, in these example games, you're allowed to keep everything you find during a exploration / hunting-session regardless the outcome, aside of course the completion bonus-reward if there will be either failure or aborting (well,in PSO it's a bit different, since the only way to "failure" is to get completely knocked out; i can't remember what the "death-penalty" in that game was thought (mainly since I didn't encounter death without "extra life" /Scape Doll)).

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pave

[Tarudizer]

The sheer amount of arrogance makes my head hurt.

[Aramahn]

But you still understand that the point of the game is to FINISH a mission to get all the rewards right?

No finish, no rewards. It's their world, we just play in it. And like I said, they did it because quitting early was getting way out of hand.

[Katakuna]

Sad that the Revives only affect the downed Tenno in question though instead of Hostages, Defending Objects, and Time Limits to name few non-Tenno objects. Not to mention the Revives won't reset the stages /levels /map into state that you could complete them, if / when you get stuck in numerous ways due glitches...

 

----------------------

Funny how many times non-video-game examples are being brought up here as arguments; last time I remember mentioning something about video-games, they were escapism and not reality-simulators, especially the games that didn't aim to be simulators...

 

Maybe if you use more italics, it'll make your point more valid.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

It doesn't matter the analogy, what matters is that you should FINISH the mission to get rewards. GASP, crazy right? Otherwise what would stop someone from running to the boss, killing him, and then DCing? And even worse if he's the host.

[Ryoken]

Sad that the Revives only affect the downed Tenno in question though instead of Hostages, Defending Objects, and Time Limits to name few non-Tenno objects. Not to mention the Revives won't reset the stages /levels /map into state that you could complete them, if / when you get stuck in numerous ways due glitches...

 

----------------------

Funny how many times non-video-game examples are being brought up here as arguments; last time I remember mentioning something about video-games, they were escapism and not reality-simulators, especially the games that didn't aim to be simulators...

 

Another thing is that I actually paid for my driving lessons instead of being paid by my behalf. So, it makes one to wonder why would I suddenly walk away from the test after paying that ridiculous amount of money for getting the lesson and license. Off-topical, but eh...whateva.

 

Alright, fair points.  How about we look at this a different way.  Instead of calling your mods and resources your rewards, let us call them potential rewards.  You are being shown what you get IF you complete your mission.  This should be a positive thing, and motivate you to strive harder to protect that hostage, work with your team to protect that pod, or move faster and using your parkour skills that you have been given.  Your video you linked mentioned tools and making sure the player has the tools to complete the objective.  DE has given you the tools, you have to be the one that accepts them and uses them.

 

Let me use a video game example.  I went with real life because it is easier to relate to, but to each their own.  In the game MechCommander 2 (not 1 mind you, that game was extremely punishing.) if you quit a mission, you do not get to keep your salvage, your pilots do not get to keep their experience, and you do not advance.  In Warframe you get to keep any in game earned XP, you can choose to play the mission after it (if unlocked already) or you can have a friend pull you into another mission.  You are not being Punished.  I cannot stress this enough.  You are making a choice to give up those potential items and do something else.  That particualr choice  is one you make on your own. 

[FateZero]

Not all games are the same.

Continue by all means to push your opinion but until you can provide evidence and prove that the change does more harm than good as it is now, I will hold to my opinion of disagreeing with you. 

Edited August 2, 2013 by FateZero

[Pave]

We will need to into account the avarage time per session / mission though:

 

- In Phantasy Star Online, one area (consisting of several maps) can last from 1-hour to more than 3-hours or even longer (varies depending on the difficulty and any other variables). Of course, you're also allowed to visit towns via self-created-town-portals ("Telepipes"), and in single players, you could save by "logging-off" and returning back later while still having the Telepipe active

 

- In Monster Hunter the time limit is 50-minutes for most of the hunts; time limit varies between mission types (E.G. Training School has 30-minutes limit for challenges). The avarage hunt time for larger missions is around 40-minutes.

One can choose to pick-up everything possible (especially map-exclusive materials not avaible at vendors or via farm) before heading to take down the target. Or they can just head striaght to target and take it down.

Back in PS2-time (and somewhat even today), there used to be a thing called

...oddly enough, seems like there wasn't much of complaining about this practice back then.

 

- Warframe mission session-leghts vary from 5-minutes to hours depending the size of the map, mission type (which determs enemy amounts) and "power-level" (more resilient enemies require more time to kill, in most of the cases). The decision of how you will completle mission will also heavily affect the time required to complete mission.

 

I cannot recall what was the avarage lenght of the missions in Mechwarrior 2 for single player campaign; it's been far too long since I spectating that game. But since it didn't allow you to keep the exp or salvage when aborting mission / returning to menu, they most likely didn't last for hours.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pave

[Scandroid]

dude the DE is still asleep its just 6am at their place try posting this after few hours so they can say no and lock the thread again

[Aramahn]

Still far to exploitable and causes far to many opportunities for the dreaded host migration. So no. Terrible idea.

[Ryoken]

I cannot recall what was the avarage lenght of the missions in Mechwarrior 2 for single player campaign; it's been far too long since I spectating that game. But since it didn't allow you to keep the exp or salvage when aborting mission / returning to menu, they most likely didn't last for hours.

 

The longest missions in MechCommander 2 (not Mechwarrior, which there was no salvage, in MW2:Mercs there was prescripted salvage) the longest missions would fall into the 30 minute plus category.  While most were shorter ranging from 5-10 minutes, you could make them last longer if you wanted to make sure none of your pilots were injured. 

 

But I digress, that is a different game, different rules and different goals set for the players.

 

Making comparisons to other games allows for a bar to be set, but it has to be noted that Warframe is a game unto itself.   They way the game is designed allows for players to be pushed without being punished.  This particular line that is being walked is very thin.  As has been stated, people have used exploits to bring these changes into affect.  Players were punishing other players for simply being part of a team.  This was real punishment.  They did not fail the mission, they did not quit the mission, and they were being robbed of their time and work when they committed no errors.  DE changed the rules to help level the playing field.  Keep in mind, this change was called for by the community.   If you read the forums several months ago, you would remember the number of threads crying for a change to stop these players from damaging the rest of the community.  DE responded.

 

Perhaps a better solution would be two additional mods.  Three ranks.  It multiplies your resources or credits by 1.5 / 2 / 2.5.  This would give you a bigger reward for success and lesson your pain of failure.  Missions still need to be completed, time still needs to be spent.  While this solution is far from perfect, I think taking the step backwards is even more of a negative direction. 

[Blatantfool]

Ryoken basically covered the gist of it.

 

 This is why I told you two threads ago - the issue really isn't on the table anymore. The community was begging for action over the Abort-farming process and it was in DE's best interests to address it. They smashed the issue to pieces and since then this change has stayed on to simply prevent that sort of abuse.

[Skywalker666]

Another way of implementing this would be to give the rewards to the player, together with a penalty for failing. What kind of penalty? The usuals are a loss of exp or of money, but none of this would be doable in warframe. But for example, something like "HP-50% for the next mission" (and cumulative) would be quite a deterrent... For the occasional failure, np, just run a M-prime and you're fine. But for someone who wants to spam this exit feature, it will easily become a hassle.

 

Another kind of penalty, but which would be more punishing than the current system, would be a "cool down" (15-30 minutes maybe) for failed missions.

 

 

 

i can't remember what the "death-penalty" in that game [PSO] was thought (mainly since I didn't encounter death without "extra life" /Scape Doll)).

You lost all the money you were bearing. And since the money at warehouse was capped, this could easily be a lot of money. Not that anyone cared about money though.

And of course, if you had forgotten to set a telepipe...

 

Also, unlike warframe's revives, scape dolls weren't optional. If you had one in your inventory, it got burnt and you got revived, no matter if a party member was nearby and able to resurrect you.

 

 

You are not being Punished.  I cannot stress this enough.  You are making a choice to give up those potential items and do something else.  That particualr choice  is one you make on your own. 

That is, if you choose to quit, right? If you fail the mission because you just died or the hostage died, it can't be called a choice.

 

Now. Even though I don't think the idea of the OP deserves such an opposition, I don't find this game to be too punishing either, in most cases. Failing a mission isn't that easy, except maybe for rescue / mobile defense... Except for one instance : the case of solo playing. It's damn too easy to die when playing solo, and yes in that case, it is quite frustrating. (And no, solo playing isn't always a choice either, for example if you're playing early in the morning for your timezone, gl finding a team.)

 

From my point of view, this idea of keeping all rewards in case of failure could very well be a solo-only feature (like "pause"). This way, nobody can abuse one's party by rushing to the boss, taking it down, then leaving the party alone for the way back. And if they can solo the boss... Well, they can already quit the mission as soon as they don't have the drop they want, that wouldn't change much.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Skywalker666

[Blatantfool]

The game doesn't need a death penalty - this isn't an RPG.

 

 It is a TPS-Dungeon Crawler.

 

 If you fail you get nothing - Win and you get what you found.

 

 If you abort you fail. Like in the majority of games.

 

 

 No death penalty - you just 'Game Over' on the mission.

[Pave]

It's however, once again, required to remind once again, that these pleads (which I for was unfortunte to not notice back then), was also made during the time when host migration didn't work properly, or at least as well as it's working today.

So no, today if host leave the mission, rest the players aren't kicked back to menu empty handed (except when of course nowadays, when you are not allowed to keep anything you picked up during mission nowadays; once again is this the fault of the system, not players).

 

In fact, for the sake random quotation, here's one regarding to Firefall by one of the main devs of Red5 regarding to exploits in general (and often quoted):

 

We do not fault players for utilizing these exploits. We consider it "clever use of game mechanics". However, that doesn't mean we don't want to fix them. We try to fix things progamatically so that they don't occur again.

 

Already there has been various other solutions handed out (with some additions on post above the you're now reading) that could be impleted today, mainly thanks to alreay made fixes and various chnages how the "jump-in"-mechanicsm works in Warframe nowadays.

It's just the matter of the devs what and how well the solutions will pull off. I for one, would like to have this being actually more encouraging (and fun) when it comes to expemerimentations. Right now, due the stalling punishment, experimentation especially on higher power-level-missions is extremely discouraged.

 

Warframe-team has said numbers of times how surprised they have about what this game has turned into so far. And are always more than eager to try out something new and want to see the reactions of their players / customers. Perhaps it's time to see this punishment-system change into something new and enjoyable too, in which everyone can win.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pave

[Blatantfool]

Experimentation like what? What is it that you expect to be able to do if they remove this penalty entirely?

[Mietz]

The game doesn't need a death penalty - this isn't an RPG.

 

 It is a TPS-Dungeon Crawler.

 

 

 

Which is an RPG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_crawl

 

 

 

 If you abort you fail. Like in the majority of games.

 No death penalty - you just 'Game Over' on the mission.

 

Other Dungeon Crawlers let you keep loot and (sometimes) XP on failure unless its a roguelike.

Is Warframe a Roguelike?

[Blatantfool]

Which is an RPG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_crawl

 

 

  Hardly, in this case. Warframe is as much an RPG as CoD.

 

 

 

Other Dungeon Crawlers let you keep loot and (sometimes) XP on failure unless its a roguelike.

Is Warframe a Roguelike?

 

  You forgot the TPS part - which is where the vast majority of the core Gameplay is born from.

 

 Warframe is a Dungeon Crawler in that the levels are all randomly cobbled together when you load up.

 

 Warframe is a Third Person Shooter everywhere else.