Scrap Nightmare Mode And Use That Space To Add Scarves Or Something.

[Mak_Gohae]

They add a condition, people complain, it get's taken away.

 

What's the point, then? Nightmare mode was described as that thing that is going to appease the folks looking for challenge and instead the general masses are dictating what gets done with it.

 

Instead of just taking away stuff why dont you just simply make it optional? Have an extra node appear next to a normal mission node so folks can skip it if they want. This last update Nightmare mod became a bit more fun, taking out Vay Hek with no shields, energy and vamp mode on was exciting, but now that's gone...

 

Now that im thinking about it the real problem are the mods....they added these new mods into the game through this mode and, of course, EVERYBODY piled in to get them. So Nightmare mode wasn't just an extra challenge it became "necessary" to get these mods and this is why there is all this crying. So the setup was wrong from the start.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[KvotheTheArcane1]

"What's the point, then? Nightmare mode was described as that thing that is going to appease the folks looking for challenge and instead the general masses are dictating what gets done with it."

 

There's a difference between challenging (no shields, no abilities, etc) and punishing (no minimap on a spy mission, exterminate, pretty much anything)

But yeah, nightmare mode needs to be an optional thing, not a mode that replaces regular missions (i.e. if I want to run xini, and I want to go for as long as possible, or until a reward I like pops up, I don't want to play it in nightmare mode)

[Bakercompany86]

Or just make nightmare mode better....  Don't make it punishing, make it challenging.

 

 

Dark Souls was challenging, but not punishing.  While the games are very different, DE could still learn from Dark Souls in terms of turning difficulty into an art form like FROM software did.

[Hybridon]

The problem is that its not truly a challenge.

 

They should have done a inverted loot table inside nightmare mode, and add in those mods with equal chances of falling, 10% for each, and not how it is atm, where I have a 2% cjance at Hammershot and Blaze... meaning 1% for each. I myself have done over 100 runs and didnt get them, its not truly 1 in each 100 runs to get them, that screws it up.

 

My only problem with nightmare mode was these 3 things:

 

1 - No minimap.

 

2 - Some missions I had shields, and when I died and revived Id revive without shields.

 

3 - Enemies 1 killing me the exact moment I come out of my invisibility, even if they where standing backwards to me.

[Eisvogel]

Or just make nightmare mode better....  Don't make it punishing, make it challenging.

 

 

Dark Souls was challenging, but not punishing.  While the games are very different, DE could still learn from Dark Souls in terms of turning difficulty into an art form like FROM software did.

 

Huh? Dark Souls was both..... that's why people whined like babies all the time about losing all their souls and such.

 

This game could use more punishing to educate all the brats complaining and QQing for everything they don't get handed in plate. The problem here is that the game also lacks challenge, and the way things are at the moment.... the only way is to make cheap/virtual challenge (+++stats) which is boring and no real challenge.

[Bakercompany86]

Huh? Dark Souls was both..... that's why people whined like babies all the time about losing all their souls and such.

 

This game could use more punishing to educate all the brats complaining and QQing for everything they don't get handed in plate. The problem here is that the game also lacks challenge, and the way things are at the moment.... the only way is to make cheap/virtual challenge (+++stats) which is boring and no real challenge.

 

Okay the *real* gamers didn't whine and complain about Dark Souls.  We fought, died, lost, recovered, learned, and mastered.  I loved every minute of Dark Souls.  There wasn't a single part that I felt was "punishing" me being difficult just for the sake of being difficult.  It was difficulty as an art form.  They didn't just stack on HP and Armor, or throw a ridiculous amount of enemies at you, or take away things like your shield.  It was difficult because you lacked the skill to complete it.  That is why people can defeat the game on Soul Level 1 (and has been done).

 

 

This game does the opposite.

 

You want difficulty?  How about no mini-map, or we strip your shields, while increasing the enemies health and damage.

 

That's not adding creative challenge.  That's modifying a couple stats within the programming to up the difficulty in a lazy way.

 

I want this game to be challenging because the mixture of enemies poses a unique threat, or a new enemy I simply don't know how to kill yet.  Or one that is difficult to kill because you cannot figure out how.

 

Not one that's difficult to kill because they multiplied it's HP by 20 and it's damage by 15.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Huh? Dark Souls was both..... that's why people whined like babies all the time about losing all their souls and such.

 

This game could use more punishing to educate all the brats complaining and QQing for everything they don't get handed in plate. The problem here is that the game also lacks challenge, and the way things are at the moment.... the only way is to make cheap/virtual challenge (+++stats) which is boring and no real challenge.

Dark souls wasn't punishing, when you died, it was because you messed up in some way. And you could learn what you did wrong, go back, and kick in whatever killed you's teeth. Or die, and try again. And again. It was difficult, it was skill based, it wasn't "Oh hey, you don't get a shield this time." or "ehh... now you can't dodge/backstab" type of "challenge" (that's punishing).

[Bakercompany86]

Dark souls wasn't punishing, when you died, it was because you messed up in some way. And you could learn what you did wrong, go back, and kick in whatever killed you's teeth. Or die, and try again. And again. It was difficult, it was skill based, it wasn't "Oh hey, you don't get a shield this time." or "ehh... now you can't dodge/backstab" type of "challenge" (that's punishing).

 

Completely agreed.  I think if they revamped Warframe to eliminate the Power Creep, it would open up many possibilities for new difficult challenges.

 

 

I mentioned in another thread a long time ago, that F.3.A.R. had a game mode that would fit Warframe (modified to suit WF of course).  The game mode was called F**KING RUN! and it was extremely challenging (I mean, extremely) but not punishing.  If you screwed up once, it was because a teammate derped or because you screwed up something.  I sincerely suggest you take a look at it and think about how it could be evolved to fit this game.  It's basically a high speed run and gun parkour mission while being chased by a wall of death.

[Eisvogel]

Okay the *real* gamers didn't whine and complain about Dark Souls.  We fought, died, lost, recovered, learned, and mastered.  I loved every minute of Dark Souls.  There wasn't a single part that I felt was "punishing" me being difficult just for the sake of being difficult.  It was difficulty as an art form.  They didn't just stack on HP and Armor, or throw a ridiculous amount of enemies at you, or take away things like your shield.  It was difficult because you lacked the skill to complete it.  That is why people can defeat the game on Soul Level 1 (and has been done).

 

 

This game does the opposite.

 

You want difficulty?  How about no mini-map, or we strip your shields, while increasing the enemies health and damage.

 

That's not adding creative challenge.  That's modifying a couple stats within the programming to up the difficulty in a lazy way.

 

I want this game to be challenging because the mixture of enemies poses a unique threat, or a new enemy I simply don't know how to kill yet.  Or one that is difficult to kill because you cannot figure out how.

 

Not one that's difficult to kill because they multiplied it's HP by 20 and it's damage by 15.

 

Maybe you have a different understanding of what is punishing, but Dark Souls was..... and i believe it was a good thing too.... it was yet another beauty of it, i loved it non stop and i am waiting Dark Souls 2 with fervent anxiety.

 

While no minimap is plain dumb and fucks up some mission types, no shields and the other things at least pose a change of tactics..... while it's not the best and it has still a long way to go.... it's better than just plain stats.

 

I would love to get some real challenge though, i've made posts about it several times... for example.... using the parkour more (i can't think of another already developed mechanic to use, remaking something from scratch would take too much time to see it in effect.... so i tried thinking of things we could actually see before remaking a new whole mechanics system). They also made mistakes with the things that they made..... look at the void for instance..... it's really cool and the traps can actually pose a threat.... but, then again... you can break them ..... why? Why would they let us break the plates and destroy every trap with 1 or 2 rockets.... making the room harmless and dull..... jeez are they so afraid of QQing? Make the lazors unbreakable and don't let us disarm the traps come on!

Also... wouldn't you love to have to run for your life for once? Not some cheap hp++ dmg++ stats... but instead, a boss where you would need to constantly parkour to avoid massive death and shoot him when you can!! wouldn't that be something for a change ? =D

[Eisvogel]

Dark souls wasn't punishing, when you died, it was because you messed up in some way. And you could learn what you did wrong, go back, and kick in whatever killed you's teeth. Or die, and try again. And again. It was difficult, it was skill based, it wasn't "Oh hey, you don't get a shield this time." or "ehh... now you can't dodge/backstab" type of "challenge" (that's punishing).

 

Completely agreed.  I think if they revamped Warframe to eliminate the Power Creep, it would open up many possibilities for new difficult challenges.

 

 

I mentioned in another thread a long time ago, that F.3.A.R. had a game mode that would fit Warframe (modified to suit WF of course).  The game mode was called F**KING RUN! and it was extremely challenging (I mean, extremely) but not punishing.  If you screwed up once, it was because a teammate derped or because you screwed up something.  I sincerely suggest you take a look at it and think about how it could be evolved to fit this game.  It's basically a high speed run and gun parkour mission while being chased by a wall of death.

 

 

Read my above post.... you guys are misunderstanding some things... and also, saying that Dark Souls was "punishing" has nothing wrong with it.... it isn't cheap or anything. And of course, there's nothing cheap in dark souls challenge... if you die, it's always your own fault...

 

Dark souls punishes you over and over again to make you learn from your mistakes, to make you adapt to face greater challenge. Never wondered why Dark Souls has little to no tutorial? Why the game doesn't flood you all the info straight out? I consider that one of it's greatest aspects..... they make you learn from your mistakes and learn the mechanics of the game as you go and face new challenges, that's really something. And i loved every bit of it

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Maybe you have a different understanding of what is punishing, but Dark Souls was..... and i believe it was a good thing too.... it was yet another beauty of it, i loved it non stop and i am waiting Dark Souls 2 with fervent anxiety.

Punishing is screwing the player over out of basic things (i.e. minimap), watch this video, it explains it VERY well http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun

 

While no minimap is plain dumb and fucks up some mission types, no shields and the other things at least pose a change of tactics..... while it's not the best and it has still a long way to go.... it's better than just plain stats.

Eh, it's stats, simply in another way (i.e. shields * 0, not really that creative)

 

I would love to get some real challenge though, i've made posts about it several times... for example.... using the parkour more (i can't think of another already developed mechanic to use, remaking something from scratch would take too much time to see it in effect.... so i tried thinking of things we could actually see before remaking a new whole mechanics system). They also made mistakes with the things that they made..... look at the void for instance..... it's really cool and the traps can actually pose a threat.... but, then again... you can break them ..... why?

Eh, I understand breaking them, if you fall into one solo, and couldn't break them, it's an auto quit.

 

-snipforsize-

 

Read my above post.... you guys are misunderstanding some things... and also, saying that Dark Souls was "punishing" has nothing wrong with it.... it isn't cheap or anything. And of course, there's nothing cheap in dark souls challenge... if you die, it's always your own fault...

 

Dark souls punishes you over and over again to make you learn from your mistakes, to make you adapt to face greater challenge. Never wondered why Dark Souls has little to no tutorial? Why the game doesn't flood you all the info straight out? I consider that one of it's greatest aspects..... they make you learn from your mistakes and learn the mechanics of the game as you go and face new challenges, that's really something. And i loved every bit of it

No, that's DIFFICULT, that's proper challenge. Again watch this http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun it explains difficult vs punishing

[Eisvogel]

No, that's DIFFICULT, that's proper challenge. Again watch this http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun it explains difficult vs punishing

 

Who said it wasn't proper challenge? You are mixing the challenge with what i said it was punishing (and punishing the player for dieing it's perfectly OK and fits Dark Souls learning curve). That's why i said to read my above post.

 

I never said no shields was creative, and i suggested some real challenges. I said that no shields at least forces you to change tactics (since gameplay is really only based on taking some hits while shooting everything, not minding the damage since your shields recharge).

 

As far as lazors....If you fall into one solo... it would be your fault.... it's like saying playing ruk or hyena solo should be changed since they can severely hinder solo players, as opposed to a squad match (and you only mean the vault, since there's no other places where you could die upon re-spawn.....  it's also easily fixed with a good ol' brief re-spawn invulnerability.

 

For punishing vs difficult, you are just abiding by some collateral definition. You are also talking about the gameplay and mixing it with the difficulty/challenge of the game.... i am referring to the reward/penalty system... which is the only real thing that can be punishing or not.... that's why i mentioned the souls loss, that's the punishment. You are referring to gameplay and game mechanics, that's not really punishing or not... that's just cheap (like what you said about => "Punishing is screwing the player over out of basic things (i.e. minimap)").

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Who said it wasn't proper challenge? You are mixing the challenge with what i said it was punishing (and punishing the player for dieing it's perfectly OK and fits Dark Souls learning curve). That's why i said to read my above post.

 

I never said no shields was creative, and i suggested some real challenges. I said that no shields at least forces you to change tactics (since gameplay is really only based on taking some hits while shooting everything, not minding the damage since your shields recharge).

I'm not disagreeing, it is stats, but atleast it forces people to play differently (i.e. harder time rushing)

 

As far as lazors....If you fall into one solo... it would be your fault.... it's like saying playing ruk or hyena solo should be changed since they can severely hinder solo players, as opposed to a squad match (and you only mean the vault, since there's no other places where you could die upon re-spawn.....  it's also easily fixed with a good ol' brief re-spawn invulnerability.

I agree, that's what they need a brief respawn invul, then traps (some atleast) could be unbreakable

 

For punishing vs difficult, you are just abiding by some collateral definition. You are also talking about the gameplay and mixing it with the difficulty/challenge of the game.... i am referring to the reward/penalty system... which is the only real thing that can be punishing or not.... that's why i mentioned the souls loss, that's the punishment. You are referring to gameplay and game mechanics, that's not really punishing or not... that's just cheap (like what you said about => "Punishing is screwing the player over out of basic things (i.e. minimap)").

Ah, ok you meant punishment, as in lose of something, not something like minimap lose.

[Bakercompany86]

We are using punishing and difficult in the context of the Extra Credit video.

 

 

 

In this context, Punishing is what happens when you make it too difficult with no reason or reward.

 

Difficult is Dark Souls.

[Eisvogel]

 

Who said it wasn't proper challenge? You are mixing the challenge with what i said it was punishing (and punishing the player for dieing it's perfectly OK and fits Dark Souls learning curve). That's why i said to read my above post.

 

I never said no shields was creative, and i suggested some real challenges. I said that no shields at least forces you to change tactics (since gameplay is really only based on taking some hits while shooting everything, not minding the damage since your shields recharge).

I'm not disagreeing, it is stats, but atleast it forces people to play differently (i.e. harder time rushing)

 

As far as lazors....If you fall into one solo... it would be your fault.... it's like saying playing ruk or hyena solo should be changed since they can severely hinder solo players, as opposed to a squad match (and you only mean the vault, since there's no other places where you could die upon re-spawn.....  it's also easily fixed with a good ol' brief re-spawn invulnerability.

I agree, that's what they need a brief respawn invul, then traps (some atleast) could be unbreakable

 

For punishing vs difficult, you are just abiding by some collateral definition. You are also talking about the gameplay and mixing it with the difficulty/challenge of the game.... i am referring to the reward/penalty system... which is the only real thing that can be punishing or not.... that's why i mentioned the souls loss, that's the punishment. You are referring to gameplay and game mechanics, that's not really punishing or not... that's just cheap (like what you said about => "Punishing is screwing the player over out of basic things (i.e. minimap)").

Ah, ok you meant punishment, as in lose of something, not something like minimap lose.

 

 

exactly :3

[KvotheTheArcane1]

exactly :3

yeah that's different, if you die/lose a mission, yeah dark souls "punishes" you for it, but even then, it's a "small" punishment as you can get your souls back generally (unless you die again before getting them)

[Eisvogel]

yeah that's different, if you die/lose a mission, yeah dark souls "punishes" you for it, but even then, it's a "small" punishment as you can get your souls back generally (unless you die again before getting them)

 

I wouldn't say small.... since dying before reaching your souls it's the most common thing in the world the first time you play the game :P. It's fair and up to the standards of the game challenge.

 

With that said, let's end Dark Souls discussion here since it's long past any usefulness for the thread :P

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I wouldn't say small.... since dying before reaching your souls it's the most common thing in the world the first time you play the game :P. It's fair and up to the standards of the game challenge.

 

With that said, let's end Dark Souls discussion here since it's long past any usefulness for the thread :P

Ah, well, by "small", I meant if you can get there normally, you should be able to get there again, unless you mess up, but yeah, this discussion about dark souls has reached it's peak of usefulness.

[Bakercompany86]

I think you guys are still mixing up the context from which we're referencing the words difficult and punishing.

 

Refer to the Extra Credits video please, so we can keep the jargon on the same level.

[Omegarick]

I think it just got annoying that you couldn't disable it, then you woul be forced to not have a mini map or shield or something on a mission that you could do without the extra challenge (leveling up, farming, etc.)

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I think you guys are still mixing up the context from which we're referencing the words difficult and punishing.

 

Refer to the Extra Credits video please, so we can keep the jargon on the same level.

Nah, punishing = things like no minimap, but punishment is for when you fail/die (i.e. losing souls until you retrieve them)

[Bakercompany86]

Nah, punishing = things like no minimap, but punishment is for when you fail/die (i.e. losing souls until you retrieve them)

 

Yes that is accurate.  As long as people are clear on the contextual difference.

 

 

If you want to take this game from punishing to difficult, take some notes out of the last Ghost Recon that came out. Many similarities, and lots of ideas that can be borrowed and slapped into this game.

[Eisvogel]

Yes that is accurate.  As long as people are clear on the contextual difference.

 

 

If you want to take this game from punishing to difficult, take some notes out of the last Ghost Recon that came out. Many similarities, and lots of ideas that can be borrowed and slapped into this game.

 

I'd rather use the actual meaning of the word, instead of a side meaning given by Extra Credits.

 

Anyhow, this game is neither punishing nor difficult. I'd rather they at least used the already built in parkour to give us some challenge as mentioned before. I wouldn't mind more than that.... but anything else would probably need a lot of other things reworked.... for instance.... enemies that imply tactics and dodging would be nice, but with this many network issues... it would prolly result in rage and people unable to react due lag.

[Bakercompany86]

I'd rather use the actual meaning of the word, instead of a side meaning given by Extra Credits.

 

Anyhow, this game is neither punishing nor difficult. I'd rather they at least used the already built in parkour to give us some challenge as mentioned before. I wouldn't mind more than that.... but anything else would probably need a lot of other things reworked.... for instance.... enemies that imply tactics and dodging would be nice, but with this many network issues... it would prolly result in rage and people unable to react due lag.

 

 

Using the parkour to add difficulty actually references a point I made in another thread awhile back.

 

 

This game needs a mode similar to F.3.A.R.'s mode called F**KING RUN!.  Which actually involved parkour (in the F3AR sense) and platforming plus waves of enemies while running from a wall of death.

 

Make a unique version of that for this game...and i'd play it every day all day.

 

 

I think it took me and 3 other skilled gamers about 7 attempts to finally succeed at one of the maps in that game mode.  We felt so accomplished....like we should have called our parents and told them....it was amazing.

[Outlawstar15a2]

Completely agreed.  I think if they revamped Warframe to eliminate the Power Creep, it would open up many possibilities for new difficult challenges.

 

 

I mentioned in another thread a long time ago, that F.3.A.R. had a game mode that would fit Warframe (modified to suit WF of course).  The game mode was called F**KING RUN! and it was extremely challenging (I mean, extremely) but not punishing.  If you screwed up once, it was because a teammate derped or because you screwed up something.  I sincerely suggest you take a look at it and think about how it could be evolved to fit this game.  It's basically a high speed run and gun parkour mission while being chased by a wall of death.

 

Yes DE, please add F***ing RUN! mode I loved that I never laughed so hard till I had started seeing videos on it. I hope they add that mode in the upcoming FEAR Online.