We're Too Powerful.

[MJ12]

That is not the appeal of this game for everyone, especially not me.  But I think I've been fairly clear about that.

 

So you're saying that you don't play this game for the interesting behaviors mods create? Seriously? Why are you playing it then? It definitely isn't for the grind and probably isn't for the challenge, given your perspective doesn't sound like someone who regularly solos the game.

 

 

I guess I just don't understand the fun in creating "completely absurd rifle-shotgun death sticks" and steamrolling what little challenge this game has.

 

It's almost as if I said that damage should be reduced in total to make up for it. It's almost as if in the thread Tempera made I explicitly wanted an indirect but significant nerf to multishot (and elemental damage in general). It's almost as if it's cool to freeze someone and set them on fire at the same time.

 

 

What's the point of hyper-fast space ninja parkour action shooting, if everyone is just carrying a Fat Man in their back pocket?

 

I think what you find entertaining is far different than what some of us find entertaining.

 

Look at the thread topics I've made about reducing the frequency of ultimate ability use. Maybe you'll learn something about what my argument actually is instead of creating random strawmen.

 

 

Same with his suggestions that some enemies can nullify our powers.  In a limited aspect, I think it's a great idea.  No I don't want every room and every enemy to have the ability to make our powers useless.  But once in a while or once per mission, why not?  It's called challenge.  It makes you have to think, instead of walking through the level holding down left click to win.

 

Nerf abilities to eliminate "left click to win" when "left click" is generally mapped to "fire weapon"

 

que?

 

I do love your condescension, though. You seem to be actively entertaining the delusion that I don't know what 'challenge' is. You seem to be actively entertaining the delusion that challenge is a good in and of itself, instead of an evil that largely exists to serve a greater good. But let's talk about that for a moment.

 

Challenge exists to maintain player interest, Challenge in and of itself is bad, as the extreme example of a game that nobody can make progress in ever (or the less-extreme examples of 'fake difficulty') show. Why do you keep angrily railing against level 200 enemies? That's because you want interesting challenge, a form of challenge that maintains player interest, rather than just challenge for the sake of reducing your success/failure ratio in Warframe.

 

Understanding that challenge exists to entertain, and not the other way around, is critically important.

Edited August 7, 2013 by MJ12

[Bakercompany86]

That's because you want interestingchallenge, a form of challenge that maintains player interest, rather than just challenge for the sake of reducing your success/failure ratio in Warframe.

 

 

Yes....so why are you arguing with me?

Edited August 7, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Paprika]

MJ12 and Baker, you guys ae doing what I call "arguing in agreement". That's when both sides are arguing in favor of some point, but unbeknownst to them both, the points that both sides are arguing in favor of are the same. 

 

When MJ12 said he wanted "absurd rifle-shotgun deathsticks", he meant that he didn't want the number of mods to be limited because each added its own bit of craziness (ie Torid that freezes, shocks, and incinerates), and that this absurdity brings about a certain glee.

 

He was agreeing with Baker on the point of nerfing the mods themselves so only the utility remained.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Paprika

[Bakercompany86]

The absurd part comes from the fact you're using a gun that sets people on fire, freezes them, and electrocutes them. At the same time.

 

 

I'm glad you mentioned this.

 

 

Since I first started playing this game, I've thought you should only be allowed one elemental damage per weapon.  Freezing and Frying a guy at the same time just seemed....silly.

[Bakercompany86]

MJ12 and Baker, you guys ae doing what I call "arguing in agreement". That's when both sides are arguing in favor of some point, but unbeknownst to them both, the points that both sides are arguing in favor of are the same. 

 

When MJ12 said he wanted "absurd rifle-shotgun deathsticks", he meant that he didn't want the number of mods to be limited because each added its own bit of craziness (ie Torid that freezes, shocks, and incinerates), and that this absurdity brings about a certain glee.

 

He was agreeing with Baker on the point of nerfing the mods themselves so only the utility remained.

 

 

Kinda.  But in previous threads he's mentioned why he wants the ability to grind past content to remain valid.

 

Which I understand the point, but I'd rather see a difficulty selector than simply punishing the rest of the playerbase due to some having lack of skill.

I want a real challenge.  Maybe I'm alone here.  But I don't want the ability to level past content.  I don't want to be forced to walk a balance where if I level too much, it's too easy, and not enough, it's impossible.

 

 

I would MUCH rather someone be able to select "easy" on a mission if they can't aim or parkour correctly.  Instead of just hitting the grind to be able to breeze past the same content.  Just seems like a fake challenge to me.

[Paprika]

Well, there could be grind. And a difficulty slider of some sort. We could grind for behavioral mods, and then select difficulty in the same way we choose Solo, Online, Private, etc.

[Bakercompany86]

Well, there could be grind. And a difficulty slider of some sort. We could grind for behavioral mods, and then select difficulty in the same way we choose Solo, Online, Private, etc.

 

 

In the end, I don't really mind how we get there as long as this game is challenging and fun.  To all the gamers I know, challenge = fun.  The same applies to me.

 

I absolutely loathe grinding.  Which is why I absolutely refused to level in Dark Souls unless I absolutely had to in order to use a certain piece of gear. Never beat the game on SL1, maybe I'll do that now that I have PTDE.

 

I guess that's why I start every game I play on the hardest difficulty possible (minus the insane challenges meant to crush the player).  I do believe there needs to be a balance.  Implementing challenge and then slapping impossible parameters on top of it is meant for the gluttons for punishment, and only a few games include these.

 

Probably why I loved Space Marine so much.  Was a good challenge on hard, completely horizontal progression (really there was no progression, just different weapons).  Excellent example of a 3rd person action shooter with seemless transition to melee.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[DisneylandSC]

For the AI they should write a script that makes enemies want to encircle you. That would make things a lot harder, while at the same time not allowing for things to become tedious.

 

The last thing you want is for enemies to just have a lot of HP and do a lot of dmg. That's the mistake guildwars 2 made, it makes for really boring and tedious gameplay. By having the enemy trying to surround you (your group) and trying to flank you can't hide and wait for your shield to recharge either, you have to keep moving and reporisitioning. I think it would make for more interesting and dynamic gameplay.

[Bakercompany86]

For the AI they should write a script that makes enemies want to encircle you. That would make things a lot harder, while at the same time not allowing for things to become tedious.

 

The last thing you want is for enemies to just have a lot of HP and do a lot of dmg. That's the mistake guildwars 2 made, it makes for really boring and tedious gameplay. By having the enemy trying to surround you (your group) and trying to flank you can't hide and wait for your shield to recharge either, you have to keep moving and reporisitioning. I think it would make for more interesting and dynamic gameplay.

 

 

Could not agree more.

 

Boring and tedious, exactly the words that come to my mind when any sort of grind is involved.  

 

 

It's like they got Warframes gameplay spot on right, and then slapped the wrong cover on it.  Like they were building an MMO and a 3rd person shooter at the same time, and mixed up the progression.

[neKroMancer]

All ideas are great. 

I'd add two things:

 

- Leveling up should be less reliant on mod acquisition. Passive leveling needs to be implemented other than just the health increase. Survivability is too dependent on drops. You can't progress until you finally get the mods you need, and that's up to luck, so for awhile, you might be stuck in lower tier areas before you finally get your desired mod.

 

- A difficulty option. Some people are just not good at games. To compensate for the fact that their over-poweredness has been taken away, they'll need the means to control the difficulty.

Indeed, I see the game that give enough passive stat to player to survive a mission, making mod a true choice and open possibility for other utility/support mods. As I stated in my post, game really start at lv30 with fully developed passive stat without mod.

Difficulty setting is something that I have been seeing for a long time. However, I think that it will create problem with matchmaking. What you will have is each node has three different difficulties - triple the amount of actual nodes in the game. I think to cater playerbase that want a relaxing murder simulator, keep the current planet-based difficulty and resource allocation. Make sure that all resources available in both higher and lower tier areas. However, specific loots like blueprints need to be reworked in method of acquisition.

I'm not sure which way to make majority of the player happy without cutting DE's content though.

[neKroMancer]

#1 is fine.#4 is interesting. Honestly, I think the core armor mechanic needs a total and complete rework but we probably won't get that, so just stopping armor scaling would help. #5 is kind of just personal preference, but I like the idea of having to fight dozens of guys in a room because it's the coolest thing. #7 is fine if the enemies do things that aren't annoying.

 

Now, let's talk about the bad and the ugly. First, the bad.

 

#2 kind of ruins part of the appeal of the game, which is the fact that you can have completely absurd rifle-shotgun death sticks. The easier solution would be (as Tempera suggested in another thread) making elemental effects utility based with minor damage boosts, and nerfing damage mods significantly. Buffing underpowered utility mods such as Puncture would help with this.

 

And finally, the ugly.

 

#6? OH GOD WHY. Look, I understand you've seen games that give the protagonist powers, like Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Crysis (and its sequels), Syndicate, and hell, even [PROTOTYPE] or InFamous and seen that there are a few enemies in each which can limit or take away your superhuman abilities, forcing you to adapt to a challenge with a more limited moveset. You saw this and thought it was a good idea. To be fair, it can.

 

What you're forgetting is that in most of those games your power can be regenerated easily and reliably, and is not the primary advantage you have. Furthermore, most of them have easily avoidable and very limited attacks that debilitate only temporarily. Consider Crysis 3 as an example. Sure, some enemies have EMP grenades. Those grenades are thrown, take a long time to detonate, and only remove some energy, which can regenerate in about 3 seconds. Syndicate? Jammer enemies disable your (extremely powerful) hacking abilities but remove none of your massive advantages or passive abilities. This is a game, BTW, where your basic melee attack instantly kills all non-miniboss enemies, gives you invincibility frames during that time, and can be upgraded to restore your health (so it's not like removing your abilities makes you much less powerful). They also don't take away any charge, they just keep you from using it. In Deus Ex, combat was already hard and generally a last resort compared to stealth kills from ambush, and your power regenerated reasonably quickly. Furthermore, outside of takedowns, none of your combat-relevant abilities required power. All the combat augs were fully passive and would instantly restore once your HUD disruption ceased.

 

[PROTOTYPE]? Your abilities were nice, but you could murder basic enemies in a single unarmed melee attack and had tons of combos anyways.

 

The suggestions you have? They aren't nearly as limited. So what I'm saying is that if your energy regens in ten seconds of combat, you can put in all the Ancient Disruptors, guys immune to abilities, and energy-sucking grenades you want. Until then...

 

 

Please no. The dichotomy between 'fast-paced badass space ninja action' and 'taking cover all the time' is the biggest flaw in the entire game. If people insist on having a cover shooter mode, they should make a minigame, Grineer Mode, where you play a Lancer and have to use cover (because you suck and are not a Tenno).

 

I don't see stacking fire/ice/electric/AP mod as an interesting choice when in endgame you need all of these to make a dent in enemy HP. I read Tempera's topic and I agree with it. However, stacking three kinds of effect into one gun is absurd and that really doesn't create any meaningful choice to 'pre-mission' gameplay.

 

Although, you kind of arguing against yourself with "absurd rifle-shotgun death sticks" and  "elemental effects utility based with minor damage boosts, and nerfing damage mods significantly" which I don't see a way for both of them to coexist.

 

As for my suggestion for power-resistant enemies, I believe that to make the game truly challenging there must be a way for AI to resist against AOE powers. While most people have been looking at Bastille and Snowglobe as a main culprit for being overpower. At mid game, many instant damage AOE like Crush and Overload dominate the game. The AI has no escape from that kind of power.

 

If I'm a Grineer overseer, reading through casualty report and see that 80% of my clone's cause of death is from Tenno's ultimates, what should I do? Frankly, I will find a way to nullify ultimate and level the playing field as fast as I can. The way I'm going to propose is giving certain enemies a light weapon and light armor but carry a backpack which unfold itself to be a pylon, protecting all Grineer within a certain radius. Grineer will be camping around it and shoot you from within it, similar to what we do when Frost set his Snowglobe.

 

What we have to do is bring that Pylon with either our guns or our swords. Then these Grineer can have one-way ticket to the clone's afterlife.

 

As for your last point, I think we have to disagree here, you can not make the game challenging when you can stand in  middle of the room, taking fire from 10 Grineer and survive without a dent in your health. AI must pose real threat to your being to be challenging and that's mean giving them just enough power to make us play smart while we have enough health to survive. I don't know why you 'fine' with my first post but totally make a 180 degree flip here. A knee-jerk reaction to the word 'cover'? 

 

An alternative has been posted before many times in the forum : fixing the blocking mechanic and make it a vital part of combat, both range and melee.  

[RealityMachina]

I don't see stacking fire/ice/electric/AP mod as an interesting choice when in endgame you need all of these to make a dent in enemy HP. I read Tempera's topic and I agree with it. However, stacking three kinds of effect into one gun is absurd and that really doesn't create any meaningful choice to 'pre-mission' gameplay.

 

Although, you kind of arguing against yourself with "absurd rifle-shotgun death sticks" and  "elemental effects utility based with minor damage boosts, and nerfing damage mods significantly" which I don't see a way for both of them to coexist.

Because shooting a gun that shoots fire, lighting, and ice at the same time is @(*()$ awesome.

 

And honestly with how limited a person's weapon selection can be depending on their luck, I'm against any idea of making it so their options against certain enemies are even more limited, especially with the current invasion mechanic.

 

 

 

As for my suggestion for power-resistant enemies, I believe that to make the game truly challenging there must be a way for AI to resist against AOE powers. While most people have been looking at Bastille and Snowglobe as a main culprit for being overpower. At mid game, many instant damage AOE like Crush and Overload dominate the game. The AI has no escape from that kind of power.

 

If I'm a Grineer overseer, reading through casualty report and see that 80% of my clone's cause of death is from Tenno's ultimates, what should I do? Frankly, I will find a way to nullify ultimate and level the playing field as fast as I can. The way I'm going to propose is giving certain enemies a light weapon and light armor but carry a backpack which unfold itself to be a pylon, protecting all Grineer within a certain radius. Grineer will be camping around it and shoot you from within it, similar to what we do when Frost set his Snowglobe.

 

What we have to do is bring that Pylon with either our guns or our swords. Then these Grineer can have one-way ticket to the clone's afterlife.

I think you and MJ are talking past each other here, since you seem to be talking about units that can provide defenses against powers or power-related things while he's talking about units that can strip powers or power-related things.

As for your last point, I think we have to disagree here, you can not make the game challenging when you can stand in  middle of the room, taking fire from 10 Grineer and survive without a dent in your health.

...what?

AI must pose real threat to your being to be challenging and that's mean giving them just enough power to make us play smart while we have enough health to survive. I don't know why you 'fine' with my first post but totally make a 180 degree flip here. A knee-jerk reaction to the word 'cover'? 

Well, he was here for the dark days of "no innate stats for anything at all", done for people complaining about the fact that cover wasn't an important factor in the game.

 

As it turns out, doing that sort of thing in a game about Badass Space Ninjas™ kinda backfired. Horribly. In the "Holy S#&$ most of us are dying repeatedly on Mercury" sense.

An alternative has been posted before many times in the forum : fixing the blocking mechanic and make it a vital part of combat, both range and melee.  

Yes, this is indeed a much better alternative. Better than Block's "Ok is this just an unfinished mechanic left in by mistake or something?" current status right now.

[Bakercompany86]

Space Ninjas we are not...that went out the window when we were able to equip assault rifles, LMGs, and battle axes.

 

 

We are faster Spartans.

[neKroMancer]

Because shooting a gun that shoots fire, lighting, and ice at the same time is @(*()$ awesome.

 

And honestly with how limited a person's weapon selection can be depending on their luck, I'm against any idea of making it so their options against certain enemies are even more limited, especially with the current invasion mechanic.

 

 

 

I think you and MJ are talking past each other here, since you seem to be talking about units that can provide defenses against powers or power-related things while he's talking about units that can strip powers or power-related things.

 

...what?

 

 

Well, he was here for the dark days of "no innate stats for anything at all", done for people complaining about the fact that cover wasn't an important factor in the game.

 

As it turns out, doing that sort of thing in a game about Badass Space Ninjas™ kinda backfired. Horribly. In the "Holy S#&$ most of us are dying repeatedly on Mercury" sense.

 

Yes, this is indeed a much better alternative. Better than Block's "Ok is this just an unfinished mechanic left in by mistake or something?" current status right now.

 

Invasion mechanic? Did you mean loot drop with RNG?

 

As for the third point, it was an answer to MJ12's post about being badass ninja and using smart cover. I think cover isn't an abomination that player must not use, otherwise we wouldn't have a lot of boxes and chest high obstacle in the game and there should be just one type of room consist of an empty space with wall, filled with enemies. Cover is a part of combat mechanic, it allows you to recharge your shield and reload your weapon while being safe from damage.

 

I was in that dark day when I played 75/75 Loki. I think it's rather good but too close to punishing for my liking. I remembered asking for passive stat as well to level the playing field. 

 

however, I must say that it was also those days that my survival skill as Loki reached its peak. No redirection and no vitality became my main concept ever since (I have been playing loki without redirection/vitality to this day, kind of addicted to the joy of being close to death and survive). In the face of challenge, we improve our gameplay, we improve our tactic. Too much power and we think the game as a whole is easy.

[MJ12]

Space Ninjas we are not...that went out the window when we were able to equip assault rifles, LMGs, and battle axes.

 

 

We are faster Spartans.

 

Because by 'Space Ninja' they mean 'master of stealth and subtlety' and not 'flips out and kills people' right?

 

FYI: Please learn ninja pop culture.

 

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

 

Here's a good start. There is a fundamental and hilarious misunderstanding people keep having, which is what kind of ninjas DE means. It isn't the Sam Fisher kind, BTW. And for good reason.

 

 

As for the third point, it was an answer to MJ12's post about being badass ninja and using smart cover. I think cover isn't an abomination that player must not use, otherwise we wouldn't have a lot of boxes and chest high obstacle in the game and there should be just one type of room consist of an empty space with wall, filled with enemies. Cover is a part of combat mechanic, it allows you to recharge your shield and reload your weapon while being safe from damage.

 

It's a bad combat mechanic, which is my point and something I've been making repeatedly. It takes zero, no, negative skill to plonk your butt behind a piece of cover, and it completely wrecks pacing, makes melee combat even worse than it is, and is basically a band-aid on the problem of enemies having been designed with few attacks that can shoot through cover and having their accuracy and damage pumped up to ludicrous levels to 'make up' for it, thus making every non-cover shooter style difficult at best and unviable at worst. Furthermore, you're acting like 'being able to survive ten guys shooting you in the open' instantly means there's no challenge, because apparently making Tenno more survivable in the open couldn't come from, say... a more effective dodge move, or blocking being 100% protective plus more stamina, or being able to dodge and maneuver in midair or anywhere else and enemies having imperfect motion tracking...

 

The reason cover exists in Warframe, the sole reason it should exist, is for the enemies to use it to be slightly harder to kill. Of course, cover doesn't save you. Hide like a dog, die like a dog. That goes for Grineer, and it should go for Tenno. You hide like a coward, you die like a coward.

Edited August 8, 2013 by MJ12

[Bakercompany86]

I'm starting to think MJ12 loves to read his own posts a bit too much....

[neKroMancer]

Because by 'Space Ninja' they mean 'master of stealth and subtlety' and not 'flips out and kills people' right?

 

FYI: Please learn ninja pop culture.

 

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

 

Here's a good start. There is a fundamental and hilarious misunderstanding people keep having, which is what kind of ninjas DE means. It isn't the Sam Fisher kind, BTW. And for good reason.

 

 

 

It's a bad combat mechanic, which is my point and something I've been making repeatedly. It takes zero, no, negative skill to plonk your butt behind a piece of cover, and it completely wrecks pacing, makes melee combat even worse than it is, and is basically a band-aid on the problem of enemies having been designed with few attacks that can shoot through cover and having their accuracy and damage pumped up to ludicrous levels to 'make up' for it, thus making every non-cover shooter style difficult at best and unviable at worst. Furthermore, you're acting like 'being able to survive ten guys shooting you in the open' instantly means there's no challenge, because apparently making Tenno more survivable in the open couldn't come from, say... a more effective dodge move, or blocking being 100% protective plus more stamina, or being able to dodge and maneuver in midair or anywhere else and enemies having imperfect motion tracking...

 

The reason cover exists in Warframe, the sole reason it should exist, is for the enemies to use it to be slightly harder to kill. Of course, cover doesn't save you. Hide like a dog, die like a dog. That goes for Grineer, and it should go for Tenno. You hide like a coward, you die like a coward.

Remember the first trailer for Dark sector, a space theme one? Hayden used cover, ceiling, power, and hack a mini jackal to gain advantage against a squad of Grineer. A good operative is one with efficacy, using minimal resource to create best result.

Look like our concepts are just different. I don't see Tenno as a murder machine but as an operative. I'm against giving us too much power to overpower the AI, that's just one-sided battle which isn't fun, imo.

[LazyKnight]

Look like our concepts are just different. I don't see Tenno as a murder machine but as an operative. I'm against giving us too much power to overpower the AI, that's just one-sided battle which isn't fun, imo.

I would agree that the powers make the Tenno murder machines and the poor simple Ai incapable of dealing with it.

 

The infested are idiots and you could kill them with a toy nerf gun if you had sufficient ammo and if you used kiting tactics against them and you where also not required to defend something. Murdering infested is like any "B" rated zombie game and its a given that by mission end hundreds will be slain.

 

The weapon aren't that good comparative to what the NPC with guns can do to you. The Void 3 defense mission has a life expectance of the pods of about 1-2 full seconds without a frost snow globe, I do not think NPC's weapon are underpowered relative to Tenno.

 

The powers Tenno have access to are what makes them able to be walking warlord capable of talking out entire armies in style. I do not like the entire ninja magic vibe that the game currently has that make Tenno supreme for that reason alone. NOVA and Vauban are basically mages and are walking status effects and weapon of mass destruction. The entire mandatory frost for defense is something I can't stand and is just as bad as WOW requirement of a tank for any raid.

Edited August 8, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Overcast29]

Answer: Prestige mode (Legendary mode) or whatever NG+1+++++ or whatever you have it.

[Azraill]

The entire mandatory frost for defense is something I can't stand and is just as bad as WOW requirement of a tank for any raid.

 

Oi, Nyx can do the job just as well with a team of energy siphons and her ult! .. plus chaos is nifty. 

 

:P 

 

Volt - also can do the job on maps where only one/two directions need ranged-defending.

 

So at least that's 3 frames that can handle defense, granted Volt's is highly map based and less reliable. But Nyx's is pretty flawless, more flawless than Frosts actually so long as it can be maintained - since all bullets are drawn into the ability rather than hitting the point, even if they stand right up against it.

[LazyKnight]

 

I should have clarified, for t3 defense either a frost or 2 Vauban are required. I do not like the T3 map at all and it seems like DE made it assuming that a team would always have a frost. I am sure a full team of pros could clear it frostless but wouldn't be fun.

 

I soloed T3 defense 6 times over the last 2 days with a frost and I can say it would be impossible with another frame because the pod dies in 2 seconds flat. I only soloed it out of necessity because I can't host because of my ISP and NAT issues and I wanted to use my 6 t3 keys.

Edited August 8, 2013 by LazyKnight

[MJ12]

Remember the first trailer for Dark sector, a space theme one? Hayden used cover, ceiling, power, and hack a mini jackal to gain advantage against a squad of Grineer. A good operative is one with efficacy, using minimal resource to create best result.

Look like our concepts are just different. I don't see Tenno as a murder machine but as an operative. I'm against giving us too much power to overpower the AI, that's just one-sided battle which isn't fun, imo.

The first DarkSector was also a Splinter Cell style stealth game. Hayden runs away from 4 Grineer and tries to stay undetected, only fighting when there's no other option. It's not Warframe.

[Bakercompany86]

The first DarkSector was also a Splinter Cell style stealth game. Hayden runs away from 4 Grineer and tries to stay undetected, only fighting when there's no other option. It's not Warframe.

 

Makes me wonder what DE's end goal with stealth in Warframe will be.  I would love the option to complete most missions completely stealth.  I'm okay with not being able to return to stealth once your cover is blown.  I'm glad they at least plan on fixing stealth in this game.