Fragor build

[YT_OldManTenno]

Want to go nuts with a big hammer?

 

[ThorienKELL]

It's not just speed, but it's moveset in general, reach and clunkyness. I use fragor on my inaros because of the high finisher damage of hammers, daggers are better but often overkill while hammers can be used as "normal melee" as well. Recently I did some testing and realized ohma has comparable finisher damage to fragor. 

[YT_OldManTenno]

1 hour ago, ThorienKELL said:

It's not just speed, but it's moveset in general, reach and clunkyness. I use fragor on my inaros because of the high finisher damage of hammers, daggers are better but often overkill while hammers can be used as "normal melee" as well. Recently I did some testing and realized ohma has comparable finisher damage to fragor. 

This was made as a fun alternative. For Inaros, I mainly use the Lesion and Rakta Dark Dagger.

[Sader]

For the love of god do not put Primed Fury AND Berserker on a valkyr. 

Valkyr (and Volt) can nearly speed cap every single weapon in the game with just their shout + Berserker (with proper ability strength). 

What this means is that Primed Fury is literally doing nothing. You may as well have 7 weapon mods because you cannot go passed the speed cap. 

Want some proof? Sure. How about twenty level 120 bombard levels of proof?

 

 

[YT_OldManTenno]

3 hours ago, Sader said:

For the love of god do not put Primed Fury AND Berserker on a valkyr. 

Valkyr (and Volt) can nearly speed cap every single weapon in the game with just their shout + Berserker (with proper ability strength). 

What this means is that Primed Fury is literally doing nothing. You may as well have 7 weapon mods because you cannot go passed the speed cap. 

Want some proof? Sure. How about twenty level 120 bombard levels of proof?

 

 

That's still not as fast, nor is it even the same weapon.

Edited January 14, 2018 by WS6Lethal

[Sader]

3 hours ago, WS6Lethal said:

That's still not as fast, nor is it even the same weapon.

The Arca Titron is slower than the Fragor, that was the point of using it. So not only are you using a technically "faster" hammer, you are using a total of 75% + 55% = 130% total attack speed + your shout.  I'm using 75% - 20% = 55% total + my shout.

Now ask yourself a question: Does it look like you're attacking 75% faster than I am? 

[Icari]

20 minutes ago, Sader said:

The Arca Titron is slower than the Fragor, that was the point of using it. So not only are you using a technically "faster" hammer, you are using a total of 75% + 55% = 130% total attack speed + your shout.  I'm using 75% - 20% = 55% total + my shout.

Now ask yourself a question: Does it look like you're attacking 75% faster than I am? 

It kinda does look like he's attacking a hell of a lot faster than you are, yes. Anything else?

[Sader]

2 minutes ago, Icari said:

It kinda does look like he's attacking a hell of a lot faster than you are, yes. Anything else?

The base AS of his weapon is 1.24 swings per second. The Base AS of my weapon is .58 swings per second. I'm starting with a weapon that is not only slowed down with spoiled strike, but at base is now supposedly doing near 2.5 times less swings than he is per swing. Yet as soon as the buffs are rolling my attack speed is nearly comparable. If you think he's attacking 75% faster than me, then feel free to throw away a slot on primed fury lol.

[Icari]

I'm not saying either build is any good because i hate hammers in Warframe, i just said i think it really looks like he's infact attacking a lot faster. I don't use Fury/Primed Fury with Berserker.

[YT_OldManTenno]

6 hours ago, Sader said:

The Arca Titron is slower than the Fragor, that was the point of using it. So not only are you using a technically "faster" hammer, you are using a total of 75% + 55% = 130% total attack speed + your shout.  I'm using 75% - 20% = 55% total + my shout.

Now ask yourself a question: Does it look like you're attacking 75% faster than I am? 

Using math and demonstration, I'm going to show why it is still worth using Primed Fury over Spoiled Strike.

https://youtu.be/cMZcFV570ks

[Sader]

11 minutes ago, WS6Lethal said:

Using math and demonstration, I'm going to show why it is still worth using Primed Fury over Spoiled Strike.

https://youtu.be/cMZcFV570ks

Notice how every single time you hit the enemy it was a crit (yellow damage)?

If you fight paused enemies in the similacrum with a melee weapon, every hit will count as a finisher damage hit. You need to unpause the AI to see your real damage. Thats why I didn't pause them in my video.

[YT_OldManTenno]

4 minutes ago, Sader said:

Notice how every single time you hit the enemy it was a crit (yellow damage)?

If you fight paused enemies in the similacrum with a melee weapon, every hit will count as a finisher damage hit. You need to unpause the AI to see your real damage. Thats why I didn't pause them in my video.

You're missing the point. This was a direct apples to apples comparison. You can unpause it and still have Primed Fury kill them faster.

[Sader]

Just now, WS6Lethal said:

You're missing the point. This was a direct apples to apples comparison. You can unpause it and still have Primed Fury kill them faster.

Actually the problem is your valkyr is slow. You have about 70% less power strength than I do.

[royblazin]

o

Edited January 23, 2018 by royblazin

[YT_OldManTenno]

11 minutes ago, Sader said:

Actually the problem is your valkyr is slow. You have about 70% less power strength than I do.

It is slower because I'm not using Blind Rage (I like to use Hysteria in those 'oh S#&$' moments especially if I use her in an Eximus sortie), giving me a total power strength of 190. I haven't found the need to really go much higher at the expense of everything else. Remember, the net gain from Spoiled Strike is 10.7% dps. Max Valkyr with 150% attack speed and Primed Fury (total of 205% versus 150%) will net a gain of 36.7% extra damage. With a net gain of 26.0% over Spoiled Strike, why wouldn't you want to use it, especially since there is no attack speed cap?

What makes this get fuzzier is that we have crits and status. Since Primed Fury attacks more often, more crits and status are being applied. Now imagine max power strength with Primed Fury over Spoiled Strike (net 26% dps). You tear down armor faster, and do more effective damage. This is why a lot of weapons (not just melee) kill enemies faster with a status elemental mod versus just an elemental mod with more damage. It's not all about dealing damage, but doing the right damage.

I'm not trying to argue, just showing that with weapons that have good crit and/or status, Primed Fury will end up killing faster because you're doing more of the damage that matters more often.

[Sader]

3 hours ago, WS6Lethal said:

It is slower because I'm not using Blind Rage (I like to use Hysteria in those 'oh S#&$' moments especially if I use her in an Eximus sortie), giving me a total power strength of 190. I haven't found the need to really go much higher at the expense of everything else. Remember, the net gain from Spoiled Strike is 10.7% dps. Max Valkyr with 150% attack speed and Primed Fury (total of 205% versus 150%) will net a gain of 36.7% extra damage. With a net gain of 26.0% over Spoiled Strike, why wouldn't you want to use it, especially since there is no attack speed cap?

What makes this get fuzzier is that we have crits and status. Since Primed Fury attacks more often, more crits and status are being applied. Now imagine max power strength with Primed Fury over Spoiled Strike (net 26% dps). You tear down armor faster, and do more effective damage. This is why a lot of weapons (not just melee) kill enemies faster with a status elemental mod versus just an elemental mod with more damage. It's not all about dealing damage, but doing the right damage.

I'm not trying to argue, just showing that with weapons that have good crit and/or status, Primed Fury will end up killing faster because you're doing more of the damage that matters more often.

The part your missing is that there actually is an attack speed cap, your valkyr is just too slow to hit because your power strength is to low and you need Primed Fury. Your current attack speed is around ~100% + 75% + 55% for a total of 230%  

 

If you think that there isn't an attack speed cap, then get a volt to buff you with your valk buff going. The first thing you will notice is that you wont attack any faster at all because the two buffs bring you to the cap. The first assumption you will make is that the buffs do not stack, but they actually do. How do I know this? Because I spent 3 hours in the similacrum with a volt and we literally wrote down on paper my combo counters for various combinations of valkyr with that had both buffs, one buff, both buffs with berserk and fury, both buffs with fury without berserk, one buff with fury, berserk and fury alone etc etc etc.

Basically if you think there isn't an attack speed cap then your wrong and I spent 3 hours of my life figuring out it exists, even though I don't know exactly where it is i do know that on most weapons Valks Warcry + Berserk is enough to meet it which is in the ballpark of about 210% increased attack speed. I suspect, but haven't confirmed, that the attack speed cap is 200%. If the cap is ~200% then you're likely 30% attack speed over the cap with primed fury. Considering my Warcry shout gives me about 30% more attack speed than yours, that would mean that my stronger Warcry makes up for your Fury mod which is currently wasting speed.  

My Valkyr can reach that cap on the majority of weapons in the game with just berserk and her own buff. That means a Valkyr with ~ 260-270% power strength and berserk on most weapons will NOT attack faster with fury equipped with nearly every weapon in the game, the only weapon that is slow enough to not be capped is the Arca Titron with a spoiled strike, though even that is very close. The Fragor however which is much faster is well within the attack speed necessary to reach the cap with just Warcry + Berserk.

So in short, you're wrong and go test it yourself.

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Sader

[Cleopatranikea]

I prefer the Volnus because it have a really good attack speed and can hit much more than the fragor. Hammers in general need more attack speed or just more base damage to compensate their speed negatives.

[YT_OldManTenno]

The myth has been dispelled...

 

[Sader]

1 hour ago, WS6Lethal said:

The myth has been dispelled...

 

What are you measuring the attack speed with?

*EDIT*

Incoming video to debunk your debunk.

*EDIT #2*

The timer in this video is the moment my valk buff stops, I stop. I didn't say it in the video so i'm saying it here. So 19 seconds to see how many attacks I can get.

I'm using a macro, so there is no varience on my button presses. The macro is set to click at 25ms.

 

Explain how my attack speed is exactly the same with and without a volt.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Sader

[YT_OldManTenno]

38 minutes ago, Sader said:

Explain how my attack speed is exactly the same with and without a volt.

I'm using a metronome. What jumps out at me is that your frame rate looks slower (my other clan mates just looked, and it appears yours is slower). From what I've read, your frame rate can limit your swings. You might have an actual limitation. I used the metronome looking at your last video, and they indeed show up about the same. So the only thing I can think of is somehow your pc is limiting what you can do. 

[Sader]

8 minutes ago, WS6Lethal said:

I'm using a metronome. What jumps out at me is that your frame rate looks slower (my other clan mates just looked, and it appears yours is slower). From what I've read, your frame rate can limit your swings. You might have an actual limitation. I used the metronome looking at your last video, and they indeed show up about the same. So the only thing I can think of is somehow your pc is limiting what you can do. 

Sorry, I already accounted for framerate the first time I did this test.

Originally I did this with a framerate of 500+ fps by turning my resolution down to the lowest possible settings. It had no effect.

*EDIT*

The video is recorded @ 30 fps because this is what I stream at. My ingame FPS is currently 140 fps.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Sader

[YT_OldManTenno]

1 minute ago, Sader said:

Sorry, I already accounted for framerate the first time I did this test.

Originally I did this with a framerate of 500+ fps by turning my resolution down to the lowest possible settings. It had no effect.

Then I really don't know. You can see from the Arca Titron that it scales up with each buff.

[Sader]

16 minutes ago, WS6Lethal said:

Then I really don't know. You can see from the Arca Titron that it scales up with each buff.

The Arca Titron is probably the slowest weapon in the game, my zaw staff is the slowest possible zaw staff that you can make because I realized that Valkyr can nearly attack speed cap anything.

The Arca Titron might be slow enough that it cannot reach the cap, but its likely one of the few, if not the only weapon in the game that can do that.

Swinging this all back full circle however, the Fragor is likely well within the threshold to be capped by a bunch of attack speed, and thus waste said attack speed if given fury/primed fury + berserk.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Sader

[YT_OldManTenno]

21 minutes ago, Sader said:

I'm using a macro, so there is no varience on my button presses. The macro is set to click at 25ms.

I just saw this. Try taking out the macro. It may say that it's doing it that fast, but might not actually be doing it. Everything I'm doing is without macros.

[Sader]

1 hour ago, WS6Lethal said:

I just saw this. Try taking out the macro. It may say that it's doing it that fast, but might not actually be doing it. Everything I'm doing is without macros.

Sorry man, already tried different speeds on the macro as well as two different macros. A macro is far more consistent than a human could ever possibly be. I redid the test with a 12 ms macro, a 25 ms macro and a 50 ms macro. No change.

*EDIT*

Look, in my clan they call me the "Major General Science Officer", because I theory-craft and test things and I always pretty much assume anyone who says anything on the internet is wrong, even wikis. I test things, It's what I do, and everything you've said: from framerates, to different macros to, whatever you've come up with  I've already tested it. Remember I said I spent 3 hours trying this before? I wasn't joking or exaggerating. 

So here's what I know and you can do with this information what you will.

A) There is some form of attack speed cap.

B) I don't know what type of attack speed cap it is (ie. is it different for every weapon, are some weapons uncappaed, does the base weapon speed matter, etc)

C) I don't know how much it is and don't have a testing methodology for how to accurately find it.

D) Some weapons may be slow enough that it cannot be reached: see Arca Titron.

E) I can say with a fair degree of certainty that MOST weapons in the game can be capped by Berserk and a proper Volt or Valk alone. (note that I said OR not AND)

F) If that attack speed cap exists, and can be reached while equipped with spoiled strike, spoiled strike becomes a 100% (additive) damage increase, with no drawback.

G) That's all I know, and I'm not interested in delving any deeper.

So take what I know and build on it if you want or accept it.

H) Alternative Theory: The simulacrum is bugged to S#&$ and there is no way to know who is right without developer input.

Balls in your court.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Sader