To The Guy Who Designed Raptor.

[Elhazzared]

I don't know? Maybe...

 

DODGING?

 

Or PARRYING HIS ATTACKS?

 

 

Hey look, it's a game where you have fun, difficult, effective bosses with tons of variety and replayability. Wherein you don't use cover.

 

"But it's not a shooter!" You'll say. Well, how about a shooter?

 

 

Okay, he uses cover. Very, very occasionally. (IIRC most good/expert players in Vanquish have cover usage percentages of single-digit percents or less). Even when dealing with the high-damage laser attack, he prefers to dodge it. In fact, most of the time he's out in the open taking shots, but not harmed because he knows how to stay safe in the open. Because Vanquish is a well-balanced fast-paced shooter.

 

 

 

Look at the two videos above of very well-designed bosses in games where 'finding the best cover possible' is either useless (there is none) or actively detrimental (because getting a high score, which is the only reason anyone's still playing Vanquish, means not taking cover and cover is there solely as a crutch for new players). Then try to figure out the question yourself.

 

Quite frankly, I find out that games which allow you to just dodge the world and more are a piece of crap... But then again that is just personal preference, not that the game isn't actually good... I don't like dodge mechanics that much unless they are meant to be used ocasionaly. I don't like parrying or blocking in any way, shape or form and I don't like hitting buttons to enter cover which is the most horrible mechanic. This is why I like warframe. I don't really need to use block, in fact I've gone through the whole game without using it even once. I dodge ocasionaly, mostly if I'm not playing Rhino and know a disrupter is going to attack and gib my energy or If I'm too hurt and running for cover. And cover is about, get behind it, crouch behind it. Instead of press troll key to enter/leave cover and while in it stick gun out to shoot... That is just the most $&*&*#(%& thing ever for me but again, personal preferences.

 

This boss isn't particularly hard, in fact this is a surprise boss. As in the first time you go in you are in for a nasty surprise, then you learn very quickly how he works. He at least can dish out some damage which is more than I can say for other bosses. He is not particularly tough when compared to other high level bosses, it's just that either there is a bug where you can't get a full report of hit damage or it's just that his attacks don't let you see most of them... Although I think it's bugged but he goes down at a fairly reasonable pace. With a braton I spend between 70% and 90% of my ammo to kill it but it's the high rate of fire braton and it's a low damage weapon so it's natural i need to spend so much ammo... Even then it works perfectly... If there is something I dislike on this boss fight it's how more often than not, enemies don't stop spawning which makes it impossible to clear the arena... You get a mostly clear areana to fight but still you gotta deal with them... Still I supose the extra dificulty it adds isn't necessarly bad... Just that I don't like having to fight a boss with an infinite number of goons. infinite numbers just piss me off.

[DiabolusUrsus]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/85491-suggestions-for-upcoming-boss-revamps/#entry936587

I'm just going to selfishly redirect all of you to a thread that I made a while ago... because it should hopefully be relevant. The bosses that haven't received their makeover treatment yet are indisputably boring to fight. Bullet sponges aren't very much fun. You should have one or two bosses like that at most, ideally none. And Warframe is going in that direction. So, instead of simply chanting about how boring the bosses are, let's try brainstorming what we think would make the bosses interesting. I'm sure DE will have an easier time overhauling bosses if we can provide them with suitable material to create. It takes that much less time when people give you good suggestions.

[MJ12]

Quite frankly, I find out that games which allow you to just dodge the world and more are a piece of crap... But then again that is just personal preference, not that the game isn't actually good... I don't like dodge mechanics that much unless they are meant to be used ocasionaly.

 

Okay? Dodging and parrying are better than cover use because they're much more dynamic. They allow evasion without a loss of momentum and thus are important for fast-paced games like this. Max Payne lived and died on the shoot-dodge mechanic, and so did games like Hard Boiled. Any fast paced shooter emphasizes dodging far more than cover use because cover kills game pacing.

 

I don't like parrying or blocking in any way, shape or form and I don't like hitting buttons to enter cover which is the most horrible mechanic.

 

Look, the problem is that soft cover is objectively bad for games. This is why most games which emphasize cover now are either first person or have cover systems.

 

Why? Let's talk about soft cover, and more importantly, right hand advantage. That's where because bullets come out of your gun instead of your chest, you can play a third person shooter by moving your gun out so that it's slightly exposed, and killing everything while being invulnerable. Mass Effect 3 attempts to discourage this by giving you significant amounts of 'hidden' damage reduction when you're in hard cover to balance it with soft-cover + RHA, and it doesn't work. People still use soft cover all the time because RHA makes the game much easier.

 

So instead of a game where you have interestingly animated characters doing things, you have guys hiding slightly behind boxes shooting at enemies they shouldn't be able to see. It looks incredibly stupid and it's bad for gameplay. It also means that there are some obscure, and frankly kind of stupid map design elements which can significantly impact the actual difficulty of the map (something as simple and supposedly minor as how a corridor bends can greatly alter difficulty due to right hand advantage). Because either you balance attacks for the RHA users (and everyone else dies) or you don't (and the RHA users win at everything forever). First person shooters don't have this problem for the obvious reason that you can't see what you're shooting at if you use RHA.

 

Hitting buttons to enter cover is a solution to this problem, that problem being "right hand advantage is stupid and should die in a fire".

 

This is why I like warframe. I don't really need to use block, in fact I've gone through the whole game without using it even once. I dodge ocasionaly, mostly if I'm not playing Rhino and know a disrupter is going to attack and gib my energy or If I'm too hurt and running for cover. And cover is about, get behind it, crouch behind it. Instead of press troll key to enter/leave cover and while in it stick gun out to shoot... That is just the most $&*&*#(%& thing ever for me but again, personal preferences.

 

And this is why Warframe is broken. I understand my changes and suggestions won't satisfy you. But the problem is you prefer a set of mechanics that creates massive game design problems in terms of enemy balance, fun, intended playstyle, environmental interactivity, and more. The game cannot get better unless it removes that set of mechanics, which will annoy you. However, the game must get better or it will have serious problems.

[RazorTip]

I love it when some people defend some of the broken mechanics this game has...

[mhyr1104]

I read the first page, couldn't be bothered to read everything since I'm lazy, but just one thing....you want those boring bullet sponge bosses? Then go play some other game where there are only bullet sponges. DE finally added some variation to the bosses,I was about to completely leave the game after I played some bosses, they were all the same but with slightly different weapons, maybe a bit of variation, but it all boiled down to: throw some stuff into them and kill them from a safe distance. Then suddenly a new boss who uses a slightly different mechanism comes out, why are you complaining? DE added variations, games need variations to survive, you don't want to play Skyrim where all you do is kill chickens or something (if you do, you have some serious problems).

 

I remember you complaining about how you wanted to not use cover, if you don't want cover, get a Rhino, you want cover but you don't want to hide behind something? Get a Frost, you want to just hit without getting hit? Get a Loki or Ash. Each frames have their uses and you are complaining about something completely irrelevant. I'll probably be flamed for saying this but you sound like a kid who just learned 1+1=2 but cannot solve what 1+2 is. Use your head, I'm sure you have one, variations were thrown in, vary your play style if you want the same monotone bosses, then go find a game where all you do is kill level 1 Slimes

 

Sorry for the wall of text, but I had to say this. It's a game, variations are needed, don't whine about change, if you don't want change, try something else.

[Mietz]

 you sound like a kid who just learned 1+1=2 but cannot solve what 1+2 is. 

 

The irony.

[RazorTip]

1+1=2

Actually, if you put 1 and 1 together, you get 11. And next time, try reading through the pages instead of skipping, hmm?

[CharginTarge]

if you cant solo raptor you dont know how to use cover. learn how to use cover and raptor solo = easy as pie.

 

Even easier:

 

1. Pick Frost

2. Walk to Raptor

3. ???

4. Profit!

[aa777nx]

if you cant solo raptor you dont know how to use cover. learn how to use cover and raptor solo = easy as pie.

I don't even know how to make pie!

[Elhazzared]

Okay? Dodging and parrying are better than cover use because they're much more dynamic. They allow evasion without a loss of momentum and thus are important for fast-paced games like this. Max Payne lived and died on the shoot-dodge mechanic, and so did games like Hard Boiled. Any fast paced shooter emphasizes dodging far more than cover use because cover kills game pacing.

 

 

 

Look, the problem is that soft cover is objectively bad for games. This is why most games which emphasize cover now are either first person or have cover systems.

 

Why? Let's talk about soft cover, and more importantly, right hand advantage. That's where because bullets come out of your gun instead of your chest, you can play a third person shooter by moving your gun out so that it's slightly exposed, and killing everything while being invulnerable. Mass Effect 3 attempts to discourage this by giving you significant amounts of 'hidden' damage reduction when you're in hard cover to balance it with soft-cover + RHA, and it doesn't work. People still use soft cover all the time because RHA makes the game much easier.

 

So instead of a game where you have interestingly animated characters doing things, you have guys hiding slightly behind boxes shooting at enemies they shouldn't be able to see. It looks incredibly stupid and it's bad for gameplay. It also means that there are some obscure, and frankly kind of stupid map design elements which can significantly impact the actual difficulty of the map (something as simple and supposedly minor as how a corridor bends can greatly alter difficulty due to right hand advantage). Because either you balance attacks for the RHA users (and everyone else dies) or you don't (and the RHA users win at everything forever). First person shooters don't have this problem for the obvious reason that you can't see what you're shooting at if you use RHA.

 

Hitting buttons to enter cover is a solution to this problem, that problem being "right hand advantage is stupid and should die in a fire".

 

 

 

And this is why Warframe is broken. I understand my changes and suggestions won't satisfy you. But the problem is you prefer a set of mechanics that creates massive game design problems in terms of enemy balance, fun, intended playstyle, environmental interactivity, and more. The game cannot get better unless it removes that set of mechanics, which will annoy you. However, the game must get better or it will have serious problems.

 

Firstly this is all subjective. Not debating on whether the dodge, parry or cover system used are good or bad. It's subjective to personal preferences.

 

Now to debate this matter then. While dodging and parrying allow for avoiding damage without breaking the immersion of gameplay, you have to think first on what is or not acceptable thrown at you. Taking dark souls as an example, sure you got both mechanics and they work damn fine. However does the game throws at you hordes of enemies for you to parry and dodge at the same time while still having to kill them? No. If you have to parry and dodge everything in warframe you basicly spend your time doing nothing else. Shooters can indeed make use of such mechanics, but they are only viable up to a certain point, usually that point is defined by the number of enemies though other factors may take place... As for killing game pace. Well, I don't like slow paced, but I don't like it being too fast paced either, all in the correct purportions.

 

I don't find soft cover being objectively bad. While I recognise your point, games like warframe have enemies coming at you many times, even people with ranged weapon come up close to pop a few shots at you and of course you got the mellee ones so using RHA is not as problematic. Now, while this may still be a problem, even if to a lesser degree you have to think of this. You have a warframe which has shields (not even going over abillities) You can spend whatever amount of time getting into the right position to pop a few shots while being nearly invunerable (considering enemies don't rush you) and kill a few guys like that. You can do that multiple times and you know what? Waste of time. You got shields. Get in the open, frag them quickly, move one while shields regenerate... too many, dip in and out of cover to regen shields and reload. It is still quicker than constantly positioning to exploit. Similarly in other games you are around a corner, you don't have shields but usually either some form of healing you pick up and keep for whenever you want to use or regenerating health. You can exploit it and again, waste time for no good practical reason, or you can, throw a grenade if there are many enemies or just take a few shots as you come out of cover and quickly kill them. RHA is effective, but not as efficient when you also take into account game immersion and time spent as just come out of cover and kill them as you're supposed to.

 

Again hitting buttons to enter cover is a very stupid thing. It's the worst mechanic ever implemented, especially when couped with being able to shoot from cover, which just sticks your hand out and shoots with deadly precision at enemies. So... it's the same BS as RHA and it breaks game immersion and pace just as much, only that it saves you a bit of time with positioning. I've said this before in some other threads who asked for it. If this game was to ever use that cover system, that was me walking outthe door... And like me, many others.

[ReiganCross]

I don't know? Maybe...

 

DODGING?

 

Or PARRYING HIS ATTACKS?

 

 

Hey look, it's a game where you have fun, difficult, effective bosses with tons of variety and replayability. Wherein you don't use cover.

 

"But it's not a shooter!" You'll say. Well, how about a shooter?

 

 

Okay, he uses cover. Very, very occasionally. (IIRC most good/expert players in Vanquish have cover usage percentages of single-digit percents or less). Even when dealing with the high-damage laser attack, he prefers to dodge it. In fact, most of the time he's out in the open taking shots, but not harmed because he knows how to stay safe in the open. Because Vanquish is a well-balanced fast-paced shooter.

 

 

 

Look at the two videos above of very well-designed bosses in games where 'finding the best cover possible' is either useless (there is none) or actively detrimental (because getting a high score, which is the only reason anyone's still playing Vanquish, means not taking cover and cover is there solely as a crutch for new players). Then try to figure out the question yourself.

 

Fun fact, there are about 3 things that are done infinitely better in MGR then Warframe:

 

- Melee

- Parrying

- Music

 

Fun fact, there are 5 vital things in this Vanquish video alone that are better then Warframe:

 

1 - The Boss

2 - Characters

3 - Cover

4 - Gun Emplacements

5 - Sliding

 

And this is just the things that COULD be included in Warframe, i'm not about to say that Blade Mode is something Warframe is missing. Music, though? That could be something. A decent boss too... (And no, i'm not going to say that MGR have better characters then Warframe. Hell, Lotus is a better character then most of MGR's bad guys who are evil for evil reasons because evil.)

[ReiganCross]

I love it when some people defend some of the broken mechanics this game has...

 

I kind of hate it. It's just a bunch of people that are holding the game back...

[cary2010haha]

end it in one shot, not 

 

Fun fact, there are about 3 things that are done infinitely better in MGR then Warframe:

 

- Melee

- Parrying

- Music

 

Fun fact, there are 5 vital things in this Vanquish video alone that are better then Warframe:

 

1 - The Boss

2 - Characters

3 - Cover

4 - Gun Emplacements

5 - Sliding

 

And this is just the things that COULD be included in Warframe, i'm not about to say that Blade Mode is something Warframe is missing. Music, though? That could be something. A decent boss too... (And no, i'm not going to say that MGR have better characters then Warframe. Hell, Lotus is a better character then most of MGR's bad guys who are evil for evil reasons because evil.)

MGR is 1on1 battle, totally differently to Waframe,  and Vanquish is not online game, and warframe's AI do better aim and great damage and huge hp and even greater speed, use cover in warframe do nothing gd, roller everywhere


Vanquish 's AI is dam stupid, if you play like that in pluto corpus missions, you die ten times already

Edited August 6, 2013 by Cary2010haha

[ReiganCross]

end it in one shot, not 

 

MGR is 1on1 battle, totally differently to Waframe,  and Vanquish is not online game, and warframe's AI do better aim and great damage and huge hp and even greater speed, use cover in warframe do nothing gd, roller everywhere

 

Most of MGR is not a 1v1 battle, only the bosses are. And do note that i said nothing about they having better bosses then Warframe, MGR's bosses would not work on Warframe precisely because of the multiplayer thing (And those are the only 1v1). MGR still have better melee, infinitely better parrying (Which is easy to argue against our non-existant one.) and orgasmic music by Maniac Agenda, as oposed to our boring Taiko Drums...

 

And Warframe's AI is a piece of S#&$, but i'm not really going there, that rabbit hole is way too big.

[ArsVampyre]

I generally like the raptor.  The only thing I dislike is how long it takes for the missile-fog to disperse so you can see again.  I'd rather it went away after a second or two instead of continuing to linger and block viability.

 

 

[cary2010haha]

I generally like the raptor.  The only thing I dislike is how long it takes for the missile-fog to disperse so you can see again.  I'd rather it went away after a second or two instead of continuing to linger and block viability.

single shot it then, no missile-fog to dispers you any more.

 

[ReiganCross]

single shot it then, no missile-fog to dispers you any more.

 

 

I dare you to find his loot now =P. Also, i don't need to know how to kill him, he is easy, he's just @(*()$ boring -.-'

[cary2010haha]

I dare you to find his loot now =P. Also, i don't need to know how to kill him, he is easy, he's just @(*()$ boring -.-'

Oh~ find his loot is thousands times harder than kill it.......

[0rig0]

There's something wrong with how hit detection works on Raptor, probably has to do with latency?

Most of the time my weapons dont seem to deal any damage except for occasional tiny damage of 8 or 12 no matter at which part i'm targeting.

There were few cases when i was dealing full damage whenever that thing opened its wings, or hitting side of the wing, if its closed. I think i was host at those few times. And at those times i was dealing close to 60% of total damage in mission. Now that i think about it, in Raptor mission there's usually someone who deals significantly more damage than the rest of the team. Its as if the boss decides which particular player will be able to penetrate my armor, while others just waste bullets.

 

It needs to be changed somehow. Its attacks are fast, AoE and deal big damage. And if there's some lag, you usually get hit before you can react, and that means death. That isn't what i call fun.

[Ghobe]

There's something wrong with how hit detection works on Raptor, probably has to do with latency?

Most of the time my weapons dont seem to deal any damage except for occasional tiny damage of 8 or 12 no matter at which part i'm targeting.

There were few cases when i was dealing full damage whenever that thing opened its wings, or hitting side of the wing, if its closed. I think i was host at those few times. And at those times i was dealing close to 60% of total damage in mission. Now that i think about it, in Raptor mission there's usually someone who deals significantly more damage than the rest of the team. Its as if the boss decides which particular player will be able to penetrate my armor, while others just waste bullets.

 

It needs to be changed somehow. Its attacks are fast, AoE and deal big damage. And if there's some lag, you usually get hit before you can react, and that means death. That isn't what i call fun.

You don't always get damage pop ups. Only shoot when he's not in ball form. If you have something like a Kestrel or Glaive you can throw it when he's closed, sometimes he'll open as it's approaching or leaving and the hit box will appear just in time to be hit, other than that, he's immune to damage while like that.

[0rig0]

I don't know how many raptor runs i did, ~30, and yes most of the time its immune, but there were few times where i would just unload my gun be it ball form or not, and see its life dissapearing and normal damage numbers popping up. Then i'm like 'i get it i have to target at that spot and its easy', but then i join new group and then it stops working. There's no consistency and that's why its weird.

[__Kanade__]

if you cant solo raptor you dont know how to use cover. learn how to use cover and raptor solo = easy as pie.

Ninja do not use cover.

[mhyr1104]

Ninja do not use cover.

They use the cover of darkness :D

[Ghobe]

Ninja do not use cover.

Ninjas use plenty of cover. I don't know what ninjas you're referring to.