Enemy Armor -

[illya.]

I was fighting a lvl 65 ancient disruptor with my braton (trying to master it, such a pain), The base damage of braton is 20 and with my serration mod, it only goes up to 40 dmg. Ancients have so much armor, that they reduce my damage to 8 and, I end up wasting bullets trying to convert this ancient into a block of metal. Or when I fight grineer, and my braton does 4 damage on every else except his tiny little head.

 

A really cool mod should be armor shredding, where bullets decrease armor by like 1% per bullet, with a max of 40% or 60% reduction to armor. Or for snipers 10% or 20% per bullet. 

 

I think that this is important because a lot of people are leaving their bullet damage weapons for armor ignore weapons. This idea should equalize the damage gap of bullet weapons and armor ignore weapons on heavy targets.

 

I notice this issue the most during defense missions, where a machine gun could shred enemies at the earlier waves, and then later do insignificant damage to higher lvl enemies. 

[TheXraptor]

You know, there IS a mod called "Piercing Hit" that allows your weapon to partially ignore armor. Use that.

[Eisvogel]

While armor scaling really does suck...

 

You have armor piercing damage mods that ignore armor

You have armor ignore properties and other damage types that bypass armor, and also have melee's if desired so

You also have armor reduction aura that can be upgraded and stacked.

[RoboDoge]

You know, there IS a mod called "Piercing Hit" that allows your weapon to partially ignore armor. Use that.

Generally speaking, armor piercing mods are just same as other elemental mods. They are different than armor ignore of boltor, akbloto and such weapons.

[Eisvogel]

Generally speaking, armor piercing mods are just same as other elemental mods. They are different than armor ignore of boltor, akbloto and such weapons.

 

They aren't in fact.... armor piercing mods, unlike other elemental mods, do not include Enemy Armor in their damage calculations effectively ignoring it completely.

[TemetNosce]

They aren't in fact.... armor piercing mods, unlike other elemental mods, do not include Enemy Armor in their damage calculations effectively ignoring it completely.

 

I believe he's pointing out that it only effects the mod damage. Someon earlier in this thread suggested that an armor piercing mod changes damage to armor piercing. It doesn't. It's an elemental mod that adds damage which is armor piercing.

[Eisvogel]

I believe he's pointing out that it only effects the mod damage. Someon earlier in this thread suggested that an armor piercing mod changes damage to armor piercing. It doesn't. It's an elemental mod that adds damage which is armor piercing.

 

I don't think so, and you can get that from just reading the things he compared.

And i don't see anyone who posted that the mod changes damage to armor piercing.... the only one who said something like that was first poster, who clearly stated that the mod allows you to partially ignore armor.... which is true, since by that % of damage (the AP mod %) you completely ignore armor for that.

[rksk16it]

They aren't in fact.... armor piercing mods, unlike other elemental mods, do not include Enemy Armor in their damage calculations effectively ignoring it completely.

 

No they are. Some enemies DOES have resistance to "Armor Pierce" just like some have resistance to fire, freeze etc. A good example is "light infested". Chargers, Runners etc. They resist armor pierce dmg. Weapons like Snipetron whose normal damage is of "armor pierce" type do reduced dmg to them.

 

And there is no such thing as "armor ignore", its basically just a type of dmg NOT reduced by armor. Eg: Boltor, Paris etc have "physics impact" type dmg, which is not affected by armor. But again, some enemies like heavy grineer have resistance to physics impact. I am yet to hear about anyone having resistance to serrated blade and poison, thus making weapons like flux rifle and acrid soooo good.

[Eisvogel]

No they are. Some enemies DOES have resistance to "Armor Pierce" just like some have resistance to fire, freeze etc. A good example is "light infested". Chargers, Runners etc. They resist armor pierce dmg. Weapons like Snipetron whose normal damage is of "armor pierce" type do reduced dmg to them.

 

And there is no such thing as "armor ignore", its basically just a type of dmg NOT reduced by armor. Eg: Boltor, Paris etc have "physics impact" type dmg, which is not affected by armor. But again, some enemies like heavy grineer have resistance to physics impact. I am yet to hear about anyone having resistance to serrated blade and poison, thus making weapons like flux rifle and acrid soooo good.

 

Ummm which is exactly what i implied if you have read the posts XD

 

What you are describing is weakness to certain damage types... which is the same as how serrated blade does to light infested (bonus damage).

So please try not to confuse people who don't yet grasp the more complex aspects of damage in game. Since Armor piercing, unlike elemental mods, does not take Armor into account for the damage calculations... which is, the topic at hand. This has nothing to do with how the damage will scale with enemies weaknesses or resistances. It's purely the armor calculation part (which when scaled, it's the most relevant one).

 

Also, you should know, only a very few amount of enemies have resistance to armor piercing damage (light infested only and a part of the moas)

Edited August 5, 2013 by Eisvogel

[rksk16it]

Ummm which is exactly what i implied if you have read the posts XD

 

What you are describing is weakness to certain damage types... which is the same as how serrated blade does to light infested (bonus damage).

So please try not to confuse people who don't yet grasp the more complex aspects of damage in game. Since Armor piercing, unlike elemental mods, does not take Armor into account for the damage calculations... which is, the topic at hand. This has nothing to do with how the damage will scale with enemies weaknesses or resistances. It's purely the armor calculation part (which when scaled, it's the most relevant one).

 

Also, you should know, only a very few amount of enemies have resistance to armor piercing damage (light infested only and a part of the moas)

 

Ah ok, my bad :/

 

Btw, elemental mods take armor into account ?

 

From what I know, each elemental damage only takes into account their respective resistances. Eg : Suppose a weapon does 100 dmg, and a 100% fire dmg mod. And suppose an enemy with 50% armor and 50% fire resistance...

 

Normal dmg taken by enemy : 50% of 100 = 50

Now what will be the fire dmg taken by enemy ?

[Phatose]

No they are. Some enemies DOES have resistance to "Armor Pierce" just like some have resistance to fire, freeze etc. A good example is "light infested". Chargers, Runners etc. They resist armor pierce dmg. Weapons like Snipetron whose normal damage is of "armor pierce" type do reduced dmg to them.

 

And there is no such thing as "armor ignore", its basically just a type of dmg NOT reduced by armor. Eg: Boltor, Paris etc have "physics impact" type dmg, which is not affected by armor. But again, some enemies like heavy grineer have resistance to physics impact. I am yet to hear about anyone having resistance to serrated blade and poison, thus making weapons like flux rifle and acrid soooo good.

 

Either damage can be of multiple types - damage that is both poison and fire, for instance - or armor ignore exists. 

 

This is most obvious on Torid tick damage with elemental mods installed.  The elemental tick damage will not be affected by enemy armor, however it will be affected by elemental weaknesses/strengths.

[Eisvogel]

Ah ok, my bad :/

 

Btw, elemental mods take armor into account ?

 

From what I know, each elemental damage only takes into account their respective resistances. Eg : Suppose a weapon does 100 dmg, and a 100% fire dmg mod. And suppose an enemy with 50% armor and 50% fire resistance...

 

Normal dmg taken by enemy : 50% of 100 = 50

Now what will be the fire dmg taken by enemy ?

 

Sadly they do. I mean elemental damage like fire, ice and so.... take into account armor. So, besides the respective resistances/weaknesses, armor is also applied. Also the armor in enemies work very similarly to the warframe armor.... it's a numeric value that later affects the damage reduction, not a plain %. The main problem is how this number scales rapidly (but this only happens when enemies increase lvl... like in defense missions).

Edited August 5, 2013 by Eisvogel

[whitejackale]

Is armor piercing taken into account before or after amor? For example, if a bullet does 10 damage before modifiers, and you have 100% armor piercing when hitting a target with 50% armor. Do you do 5 bullet damage+5 armor piercing damage, or do you do 5 bullet damage and 10 armor piercing damage?

[Eisvogel]

Is armor piercing taken into account before or after amor? For example, if a bullet does 10 damage before modifiers, and you have 100% armor piercing when hitting a target with 50% armor. Do you do 5 bullet damage+5 armor piercing damage, or do you do 5 bullet damage and 10 armor piercing damage?

 

Usually, every factor contributing to damage, is calculated as another multiplier.. so the order doesn't affect the outcome since everything is multiplied. That's also why when you are in defense (due to the armor scaling so brutally after some waves) the armor factor practically obliterates any non armor ignore damage.

[whitejackale]

Usually, every factor contributing to damage, is calculated as another multiplier.. so the order doesn't affect the outcome since everything is multiplied. That's also why when you are in defense (due to the armor scaling so brutally after some waves) the armor factor practically obliterates any non armor ignore damage.

Does that mean that a lot of problems could be solved at high levels by making armor the last part of the equation? What I mean by that is that the damage should be:

{[(Base damage)x(Damage Multipliers)]-(Damage Mitigation)}

Instead of:

{[(Base Damage-Armour Mitigation)x(Damage Modifiers)]-(Damage Mitigation)}.

At least this is what I have been led to believe from reading posts and the wiki for warframe. Anyone that knows how the mechanics work please let me know if I am missing anything. Edited August 5, 2013 by whitejackale