Would A Cover Mechanic Help Or Hurt?

[JerichoFayne]

So at first I thought that this game needs a mechanic so that you take cover when you press against a wall, and then you pop out of cover when you press "Aim." Pretty simple suggestion.

 

But then I started wondering how much of a hindrance it would be to all the Parkour that players end up doing to get around on certain maps.  Would an auto-cover function gum up the works?

 

Maybe if there were such a mechanic added, it would be best to have the option of disabling it.

 

Thoughts?

[PsychedelicSnake]

A cover system like Gears of War would only hurt the game and detract from the fast-pacing. I feel the cover mechanic we have now where you just stand behind something is easier to get in and out of.

Edited August 6, 2013 by PsychedelicSnake

[Extinction_Engine]

Cover system would be very bad in this kind of game. And beside, right hand advantage is far more efficient than cover is.

[Tempera]

Oh boy...

 

The best way to summarize this topic is "Warframe isn't a cover shooter".

 

To expand on this slightly, it's a run'n'gun. That is, you're runnin' and gunnin'. The fact that cover is used as often as it is in the game nowadays doesn't mean that the devs want the game to be a cover shooter; the devs just kinda suck at balancing health and damage and enemies hitscan, so hiding behind cover is safer.

[Bawmba]

The corpus and grineer take cover. It doesn't work well for them at all.

[Tsukinoki]

The problems with a sticky cover like you are talking about is that it would ruin the parkour action and everything else. Good luck running up that box to get to the top to save yourself from a horde of chargers and runners when your tenno wants to cuddle it.

Further it brings up a difficulty balancing issue. Should they balance around those that use the cover, or those that run and gun without using cover?

If they balance around not using cover then the people that use cover will complain that the game is too easy and no challenge and stuff like that.

If they balance around using cover, it'll be impossible to run up and melee enemies or stick your head out of cover for more than a second without being killed by the enemies who now hit like a freight train.

Further, the cover system would slow the gameplay down to an absolute crawl, and DE has stated a few times that they want to try to keep the action fast paced.

[Hatr]

if there's a key for that and not automatic, i have nothing against it

[eStecko]

Mass Effect 3... use/cover/sprint on 1 button. Arg, what a nightmare. >_>

 

PsySnake already said my opinion on this matter.

[AriaOfOurs]

Hurt. Tsukinoki covered(hurr hurr, not intentional) pretty much all of it.

[CaveCricket48]

Really, the best cover system is having a crouch mechanic. It's intuitive and doesn't break pacing. Heck, we also have a slide mechanic, so you can SLIDE your way to cover.

[misoru2012]

I would like an easy to approach "pop-out-pop-in" type of cover system, because I do like the free running and fast pace feel of the game, but I don't like crouching behind cover, having my head exposed and getting shot with 100% accuracy.

 

Maybe using the roll button, a relatively unused maneuver, into the wall could have you use it as cover, similar to how the Grineer take cover behind pillars and waist high cover. Than right-clicking to aim out of cover, and pressing any of the directional buttons to leave cover.

 

@Tsukinoki:

 

New mods could be introduced to better each play style and further differentiate roles in combat.

Edited August 6, 2013 by misoru2012

[Kohira]

It would be impossible to implement a cover system at the moment, the maps would have to be adjusted/remade to allow for us to take cover, something that will never happen. The problem that I do have is that the game seems to force you to use cover, when really there aren't many places to take cover when you are in a room filled with enemies. The whole run and gun thing you are talking about doesn't work very much at higher levels where no matter how fast you run you get your shields and hp down in 2 seconds. We are stuck to use a non existent cover system because running at higher levels is punished by the fact that enemies never miss.

[Cabadath5]

Honestly I'd prefer a cover mechanic over our current shoot while completly hidden behind a wall because hitscan weapons fire from the camera-mechanic.

 

Also I don't think slowing the game down a little bit in order to promote precision over full auto spraying is a bad idea.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Cabadath5

[Endrance]

Put the cover from Dark Sector and we would be fine.

 

Run and shoot like DE states is a "sky high" theory, since they can't expect us to just stand and shoot vs a lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner.

 

Cover WOULDN'T stop the game, in fact, it will affect the game in a decent way.

 

On defenses, do you run? Nop, you stand and defend.

 

On other "non defense" mission, do you stand? Most likely not, maybe in some choke points, overall, it will give us a 3rd play option.

 

Rush

Play

Cover Play.

 

 

It's a totally win win situation. Those who have squishier frames would be able to survive with cover (Dark Sector cover was really nice imo, and since it's a DE they can easily adapt), those who don't like cover, should keep playing like they are now. So it wouldn't hurt no one

[Relkin]

Pffft who needs cover when we have walls.  Walls we can run on. 

[Oz270]

I support the cover mechanic, it could solve a whole lot of late game balance issues.

[Lek5tacy]

Mass Effect 3... use/cover/sprint on 1 button. Arg, what a nightmare. >_>

 

PsySnake already said my opinion on this matter.

Yes it was, there is something very freeing about not getting sucked into cover when you try to run. 

 

Technically, there is a cover mechanic in the game, it's called standing, crouching, running to /over / behind obstacles. In a way the system in Warframe is more intuitive and doesn't' rely on a button to get you to cover. If you can't get yourself to break line of sight / fire then it's on you.  

[MJ12]

Put the cover from Dark Sector and we would be fine.

 

Run and shoot like DE states is a "sky high" theory, since they can't expect us to just stand and shoot vs a lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner.

 

Cover WOULDN'T stop the game, in fact, it will affect the game in a decent way.

 

On defenses, do you run? Nop, you stand and defend.

 

On other "non defense" mission, do you stand? Most likely not, maybe in some choke points, overall, it will give us a 3rd play option.

 

Rush

Play

Cover Play.

 

 

It's a totally win win situation. Those who have squishier frames would be able to survive with cover (Dark Sector cover was really nice imo, and since it's a DE they can easily adapt), those who don't like cover, should keep playing like they are now. So it wouldn't hurt no one

 

Except it would. Let me explain this because it's not obvious game design. Games are balanced around their intended playstyle. Cover shooter and Run and Gun are not mutually compatible playstyles.

 

Look at, for example, Mass Effect 3, which illustrates the issue quite nicely. The Geth Juggernaut, a class incapable of taking cover (which isn't a Volus and thus basically given 100% cover by just about anything more than six inches tall) has four times the shields of an average character and twice the health, and their health/shield boosting skill, Hardened Platform, can increase that to 4600 shields/2300 health (while an average character has 825/825 S/H, for over 5.5 times the shields and nearly 3 times the health). It also has a skill that can reduce all incoming damage by up to 40%. This is because all other characters are balanced for cover shooting and thus it needs that much health, shields, and DR to survive in the open.

 

So in this hypothetical Coverframe, Rhino, who isn't going to be taking cover, needs to have 400 shields, 200 health, and 150 armor or so if he wants to survive as long as a cover-taking Volt in combat. This means a hypothetical cover-taking Rhino becomes invulnerable.

 

I think you can see the slight problem here.

 

EDIT: I remembered the Krogan Warlord couldn't take cover either, but the Warlord also has more than 2x the shields/health of the average character, up to 90% DR due to Rage, has health regeneration (giving significantly increased toughness over most characters) and has massive melee damage. Again, even if we use the low-end of the Warlord, your Rhino Warlord needs to have 250 base shields.

Edited August 6, 2013 by MJ12

[Tsukinoki]

@MJ12

Exactly.

You have to choose one point or the other to balance around.

@Endrance

You balance around the people who run and gun and the people who do use the cover are essentially immortal and invincible with no challenge in the game at all.

You balance around the people who use cover and its because suicide to try to melee the enemies or do a lot of the parkour mechanics that this game has.

There really is no middle ground between the two systems that could be balanced around as they are mostly mutually exclusive.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[jpvi1207]

Cover system would be very bad in this kind of game. And beside, right hand advantage is far more efficient than cover is.

yeahh right, who the hell needs to defend anyways

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Cover mechanics are the worst. In every game with one, I've died way more because of the awful cover and a the game being made for cover (because you know F*** being able to play how you want) rather than any actual semblance of difficulty. They're just not fun.

[whitejackale]

Make a cover mechanic optional.

 

/thread

[Ob1Kn00b]

A cover mechanic would seriously slow down the pace of the game, make it quite a bit more generic, and thus change the game in a way that I feel would be horribly detrimental.

[Ob1Kn00b]

Make a cover mechanic optional.

 

/thread

 

Why? 

 

Should they make killstreaks optional? 

 

Should they make changing the colors to browns and greys optional?

 

Why in the world should there making the game more generic be necessary?

[MJ12]

Make a cover mechanic optional.

 

/thread

 

How will this work? I'm just going to quote myself as to why this isn't going to work at all.

 

 

Except it would. Let me explain this because it's not obvious game design. Games are balanced around their intended playstyle. Cover shooter and Run and Gun are not mutually compatible playstyles.

 

Look at, for example, Mass Effect 3, which illustrates the issue quite nicely. The Geth Juggernaut, a class incapable of taking cover (which isn't a Volus and thus basically given 100% cover by just about anything more than six inches tall) has four times the shields of an average character and twice the health, and their health/shield boosting skill, Hardened Platform, can increase that to 4600 shields/2300 health (while an average character has 825/825 S/H, for over 5.5 times the shields and nearly 3 times the health). It also has a skill that can reduce all incoming damage by up to 40%. This is because all other characters are balanced for cover shooting and thus it needs that much health, shields, and DR to survive in the open.

 

So in this hypothetical Coverframe, Rhino, who isn't going to be taking cover, needs to have 400 shields, 200 health, and 150 armor or so if he wants to survive as long as a cover-taking Volt in combat. This means a hypothetical cover-taking Rhino becomes invulnerable.

 

I think you can see the slight problem here.

 

EDIT: I remembered the Krogan Warlord couldn't take cover either, but the Warlord also has more than 2x the shields/health of the average character, up to 90% DR due to Rage, has health regeneration (giving significantly increased toughness over most characters) and has massive melee damage. Again, even if we use the low-end of the Warlord, your Rhino Warlord needs to have 250 base shields.