Burst-Fire Recoil

[Nidz]

I would agree with the post about real-life burst-fire weapons that actually have built-in recoil dampening mechanisms. Take for example the Russian AN-94, which is a 2-rounds burst rifle. The mechanism of the gun helps in shooting the second bullet so fast, that the recoil from the first bullet is somewhat not in effect yet. Of course after that, you get the full recoil from both explosions, but during the burst, you should be able to land both shots where you want them and only compensate if you want to shoot a second 2 round burst.

 

If mechanisms like that exist IRL, I would think that space ninjas could get something similar. It makes perfect sense in terms of physics, and even if it's just a game, it would be pretty cool. Burst-fire weapons could have extremely high rate of fire during the burst, but compensate with a really big recoil afterwards. So the weapon would be a little more user-friendly, but would still require a lot of learning to be able to shoot bursts quickly in successions and controling the recoil of each bursts. But since the recoil would kick-in after the burst, you would be able to place a full burst in a Grineer from very far away, but would need a second or so to reposition for a 2nd one.

[Inofor]

I must say, I really like how the Burston works. I find manually compensating for the recoil an entertaining part of gameplay. I feel that the weapon would be boring to use without recoil and high accuracy as a reward.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Inofor

[LazyKnight]

First off, everyone complaining should educate yourselves:

 

I didn't say I hated the weapon or even say it even needs a buff. In its pre-buff levels I sold it because it was trash and this isn't the case with U9 Burston. The recoil is not even remotely in the same league as a v-Snipetron.

 

My issue might be 100% the fault of the weirdness of the game engine causing the fire pattern to change base of a minuscule change in frame rate.

 

Overall I would rate the gun B+ to A- it just isn't the type of gun I am drawn too. I am a more interested in a precision weapon that has predictability and single hit stopping power.

Edited August 7, 2013 by LazyKnight

[i6n0r4n7e-2.0]

Why are the burst-fire weapons so hard to aim with?  The recoil between shots makes it almost impossible to hit targets' weakspots at medium range with all the bullets, even if the player has good aim.  At longer ranges, you're lucky to hit the target with more than 1/2 of the bullets at all.  This means you end up wasting time and half of your ammo pool. 

 

The irony is that the Sicarus (the worst burst-weapon in the game due to a 3 shot burst) actually says that it provides a balance between accuracy and lethality.  If DE wants that description to be true, they need to overhaul the weapon. 

 

I propose a rework of the recoil system for burst-fire weapons.  These weapons should only have recoil between individual bursts, not in-between single bullets.  That way, these weapons remain more accurate than full-automatics, but less accurate than semi-automatics. 

Emm, because you are shoting bullets? because you are shoting 3 bullets? if you can hande the recoil, then make a spectra, flux, dera or supra.

 

In this game the weapons have no recoil at all, so i dont understand why you guys in all the games cry about RECOIL. You must understand that bigger caliber means MORE RECOIL. You cant compare a Co2 gun with a .50 AE, the Co2 have no recoil because it dont have gundpowder, the .50 AE have x amount of gunpowder in a single bullet, so when you press the trigger that makes a explotion in the chamber of the weapon making the bullet going out the weapon from the canon making RECOIL.

 

And you guys pretend to shot a gundpowder weapon in a game with out having recoil? even the Counter-Strike (1999) have recoil.

[Alphascrub]

The burst weapons are made for mid to close range combat and excel in such areas. I have no problem dropping a level 60 grineer with a single burst (with my formad burston, don't hate) to the head at medium range. Sure at distance it suffers but for the most part I'm on a rhino, running a few meters why taking enemy fire to get a clear shot really don't bother me. Aim for the chin peoples, if you running the right setup you should have no problem getting all three shots (or six I suppose if you running twin barrel) in the head.

[Alphascrub]

I must say, I really like how the Burston works. I find manually compensating for the recoil an entertaining part of gameplay. I feel that the weapon would be boring to use without recoil and high accuracy as a reward.

I agree, and to top it off the recoil isn't even that bad. Chances are if you like burst weapons and play video games and aren't a lazy or inexperienced player you can control burst and high recoil weapons really well.

If you really are struggling to use a burston than In the past I believe it was stated somewhere (warframe wiki I think) that fire rate mods improve the recoil. Personally I think its a waste of a slot and you should either learn to use the weapon as is or look elsewhere.

[Xylia]

Third, expecting to hit a far away target with burst fire is unrealistic. The shotguns have damage dropoff, the burst weapons have intense recoil, this is balancing to somewhat mimic realistic behaviour in these weapons.

 

But yet it IS realistic to hit a far away target with a FULL AUTO gun like the Braton? lol

[Volt_Cruelerz]

But yet it IS realistic to hit a far away target with a FULL AUTO gun like the Braton? lol

if you think it's absurd, support an accuracy nerf.

[i6n0r4n7e-2.0]

 

But yet it IS realistic to hit a far away target with a FULL AUTO gun like the Braton? lol

 

 

 

Yes is posible, not at the point to shoot the entire mag with out recoil, but shooting bullet per bullet or in burst will be very accurate.

 

if you think it's absurd, support an accuracy nerf.

 

 

I can do it quite well, i dominate a weapon with the worst recoil in Battlefield Play 4 Free (AK-47) at the ponint that i got acusated to being a cheater.

 

In that game "Battlefield Play 4 Free" almost all the wepons are well balanced, in exception of 4 or 5 weapons that are OP (overpowered, game breaker). I suggest you guys who cry about recoil that give it a try.

 

http://battlefield.play4free.com/en/'>http://battlefield.play4free.com/en/
 

Edited August 8, 2013 by i6n0r4n7e-2.0

[Ganpot]

Emm, because you are shoting bullets? because you are shoting 3 bullets? if you can hande the recoil, then make a spectra, flux, dera or supra.

 

In this game the weapons have no recoil at all, so i dont understand why you guys in all the games cry about RECOIL. You must understand that bigger caliber means MORE RECOIL. You cant compare a Co2 gun with a .50 AE, the Co2 have no recoil because it dont have gundpowder, the .50 AE have x amount of gunpowder in a single bullet, so when you press the trigger that makes a explotion in the chamber of the weapon making the bullet going out the weapon from the canon making RECOIL.

 

 

The entire recoil system makes no sense in this game.  Burst-fire weapons have about the same recoil per bullet as the Lex (which is supposed to be a pocket sniper).  Meanwhile, automatic weapons either have no recoil whatsoever, or only have recoil on the first bullet in a stream.  Not to mention that Warframe also features negative recoil, where the gun and reticule will both go down to where they originally were just after the recoil kicks in.  Because of this, the Grakata is far more accurate than the Burston.  

 

I should also point out that guns already exist which have virtually eliminated recoil.  For example, the KRISS Super V:

 

 

The burst weapons are made for mid to close range combat and excel in such areas. I have no problem dropping a level 60 grineer with a single burst (with my formad burston, don't hate) to the head at medium range. Sure at distance it suffers but for the most part I'm on a rhino, running a few meters why taking enemy fire to get a clear shot really don't bother me.

 

I was under the impression that burst-fire mode in real life was supposed to be a compromise between the accuracy of single-shot guns and the inaccuracy but lethality of fully automatic weapons.  So logically, it would follow that the fully automatic weapons were supposed to fall into the close-mid range, while burst-fire weapons were supposed to fall into mid-long range.  It's currently the opposite.  And if you're only using your burst-fire weapon at close range, why aren't you just using a shotgun? 

[GeneralArmchair]

The recoil CAN be compensated for....it is just really stupid for the recoil of a three-shot burst to be orders of magnitude greater than a fully automatic rifle unloading a whole magazine.  I don't care if the burston is firing higher caliber rounds, it is still firing only three shots while the braton can just go full-auto and still kick less.  That's just plain wrong.

 

The game already has a simple fix.  Just make the burst weapons have innate multi-shot.  Problem solved.

[Alphascrub]

I was under the impression that burst-fire mode in real life was supposed to be a compromise between the accuracy of single-shot guns and the inaccuracy but lethality of fully automatic weapons. So logically, it would follow that the fully automatic weapons were supposed to fall into the close-mid range, while burst-fire weapons were supposed to fall into mid-long range. It's currently the opposite. And if you're only using your burst-fire weapon at close range, why aren't you just using a shotgun?

The original purpose of burst fire weapons was to curve an unskilled shooter's massive potential to waste ammo. As time went on it was found that in the hands of a halfway decent shooter a burst fire weapon was not only economic for ammo conservation in combat but also a very effective way to put down multiple targets in quick succession. In short in a burst fire weapon allowed an experienced shooter to quickly shoot multiple targets at close to medium range in a near fire and forget fashion. Let me give you a few examples of situations where a burst fire weapon is useful.

Imagine their are three enemy combatants at separate ranges moving toward a soldier in a entrenched or stationary position. The enemy combatants are spread out and closing quite fast on the soldier's position. The solider maybe wounded, scared, inexperience, or possibly all three. The solider may also be completely calm, collected, well trained and experienced in combat.

For the first example we will say the solider is part of the inexperienced, wounded, and scared group. His heart rate will be up, he maybe losing blood, or maybe unable to focus clearly. His aim and ability to control an automatic weapon will be lowered. At the same point his ability to use a high accuracy weapon may also be lowered. A burst weapon offers him a middle ground that he will get no where else. It has the benefit of being able to quickly put rounds downrange, it doesn't not require him toe be a perfect,It will force him to conserve ammunition and make conscious effort to fire at each target. He aim, shoot, possibly shoot and again while maintaining a consistent level of accuracy with less thought. His targets have a high chance of being lethally wounded regardless of where he hits them, three bullets do lots of damage.

Now we have the second group of solider. The type that the tenno fall into. The highly trained, calm collected, and experienced group. Our solider is confident in his or her ability. He knows he is accurate but likes to insure his targets go down quickly, he knows he can get through his current situation. He maybe outnumber, but with his discipline the charging combatants haven't found easy prey. They have found his killing field. The solider knows that with one squeeze of a trigger his target is dead, and therefore does not waste time thinking about what ifs, he take aim, he fires, he repeats these steps twice more. Targets down.

Now that I've bored you with something you will probably aim to discredit, not read or just tell me I'm stupid and wrong Ill also go ahead and tell you why I don't use a shotgun over a burston. I can describe it with one word or many, I will do both. Short answer, flexibility. Long answer,the burston has better ammo economy than all shotguns, a larger magazine than all shotguns unmodded and modded, a fast base reload speed, and best off all, it has no damage drop off. Meaning if I can hit it, its going to take damage. Yes shotguns can fill a close up roll but in general most of them require a none damage type of mod to make them more efficient. In general a shotgun suffers from at least two of these problems. Low clip size, long reload times, poor ammo economy, and bullet drop off.

I hope this has made my a opinion more clear and hopefully it has given you a opinion opposite to that of your own. I hope this came as clear read, sorry if it did not, I'm a bit tired. Cheers if you actually made it to the end, this was quite the wall.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Alphascrub

[Xylia]

Yes is posible, not at the point to shoot the entire mag with out recoil, but shooting bullet per bullet or in burst will be very accurate.

 

You still don't seem to understand the point.

 

You can take a Full-Auto weapon (meaning the Braton, obviously. not the Grakata LOL), fire a 2-4 round burst and get almost no recoil and perfect accuracy with one tap of the trigger (mouse button).

 

OR

 

You can take a "Burst-Fire" weapon, fire one burst, and each shot creates enough recoil to make the gun nearly fly out of your hands.

 

..........uh?

 

That doesn't even make sense.

 

If the Full Auto weapon has some sort of anti-recoil magic, then why they hell wouldn't they put that same magic on the burst-fire weapon considering a Burst-Fire weapon is SUPPOSED to be a "halfway point" between Semi Auto (perfect accuracy, slow fire rate) and Full Auto (faster fire rate, less accuracy)?

Edited August 8, 2013 by Xylia

[JerichoFayne]

I realize this a game with space ninjas & all....but how is it that full-automatic weapons have less recoil per shot than a burst-fire weapon?  For whatever reason...this slid right through the QA/QC process.

[Riasiru]

So, I was thinking out what needs to happen when a thought occurred to me... What if you're comparing the recoil to the wrong weapon? Hear me out on this.

 

Braton; a low recoil weapon that fires the lowest caliber bullet rapidly. Recoil per shot is lower, but damage is also lower.

Burston; a medium recoil weapon that fires the standard caliber bullet in bursts. Recoil and damage is higher, but burst fire enforces good control tactics.

Latron; a high recoil weapon that fires higher caliber bullets one at a time. Recoil and damage is the highest of the three.

 

When I thought about it like that, I realized that the burston SHOULD have more recoil than the Braton, but less than the Latron. Of course, this is just me thinking about things logically. At the end of the day the Burston should still handle better than the Braton because of a reduced fire rate. Shooting just a little more than half as fast as the Braton, the recoil, despite being higher, should be easier to manage. Perhaps the center speed isn't high enough for this sort of design to work.

 

Edit starts here.

 

So, I grabbed the Burston and started tweaking the fire rate to see what would happen. Now, this is the strange thing... Making the gun fire faster resulted in more headshots at range than when it fired slower. I'll repeat that just because of how counter intuitive it is. The faster the gun fires the more accurate burst fire is. It appears that recoil doesn't instantly transition upwards. It accelerates upwards, slows down, stops, and finally begins to settle after every shot. Firing faster gives recoil less time to accelerate upwards and results in your second (perhaps even third) shot being much closer to the first shot. This would explain why the Braton seems to have less recoil when it fires twice as fast.

 

That said, this means that the problem isn't the gun but the way the game handles recoil all together. Higher fire rate guns will, if what I've observed holds true, typically have less recoil because the recoil has less time to actually happen between shots. I would not be surprised if the recoil from the first shot is cancelled all together when the second is fired. Same for the second shot being cancelled by the third's recoil and the third shot's massive jump up isn't the combined jerk of all three but merely a single shot's recoil being allowed to run the course.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Riasiru

[Bakercompany86]

The Burston would actually be a good weapon if you could just aim with the stinking thing.

 

I mean, wtf?

 

I can take my Braton out, and fire 2-4 shot bursts and hit a grineer in the head from clear across the largest rooms the Galleons have to offer. The recoil is very small, and non-existent.

 

I take a Burston and try shooting a Grineer in the head from 20 feet away and at least one of the shots end up in the wall behind him.

 

Seriously.

 

Why can I sniper with a Braton, but the Burston nearly flies out of my hands each burst?

 

I've shot Corpus Moas from clear across an open outpost area, some 200 yards away with a Braton, even. 2-4 shot bursts.

 

Try that with a Burston........

 

 

Was about to make a new thread. Used the search function.  This thread wasn't too old, so it's getting fresh life blown into it.

 

 

Burston recoil is a bit high.  Yes it is clearly higher caliber (more damage tells me this).

 

But the recoil of this weapon goes against the very reason we use it.  It's incredibly inaccurate past 20 yards.  And even at that range you cannot land all 3 shots as headshots.  

 

Recoil of this weapon needs to be reduced a bit.  As a 3 round burst weapon it should have incredibly lethal accuracy at medium range and maintain decent accuracy at long range.  It doesn't have any of that.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Was about to make a new thread. Used the search function.  This thread wasn't too old, so it's getting fresh life blown into it.

 

 

Burston recoil is a bit high.  Yes it is clearly higher caliber (more damage tells me this).

 

But the recoil of this weapon goes against the very reason we use it.  It's incredibly inaccurate past 20 yards.  And even at that range you cannot land all 3 shots as headshots.  

 

Recoil of this weapon needs to be reduced a bit.  As a 3 round burst weapon it should have incredibly lethal accuracy at medium range and maintain decent accuracy at long range.  It doesn't have any of that.

If you fight the recoil by sliding your mouse down, you can overcome it and get three headshots at range.  It's really not that hard.

 

And there's no need for that.  Fire rate dramatically cuts down recoil, especially now that we have Shred and Speed Trigger.  Also, burst weapons can either be so that all three bullets escape before recoil kicks in or for the purpose of just dumping lead into the target.  The Burston is the latter.

 

I've said it countless times before, I'd be happy if there were a new weapon or a skin for the Burston that was added with slightly lower rate that had recoil delayed until the end.  Wouldn't that make everyone happy?  A lot of people like the way it works right now and several don't.  It's not that either party is wrong, it's just that we want different things from it.  I like thinking about my weapons and I want them to be predictable so that I can get better with them and when I do better, it's because of me, not just because I stacked on more mods.  Hence why the only two weapons I've ever used forma on are the Dera and Burston.

 

 

 

So, I grabbed the Burston and started tweaking the fire rate to see what would happen. Now, this is the strange thing... Making the gun fire faster resulted in more headshots at range than when it fired slower. I'll repeat that just because of how counter intuitive it is. The faster the gun fires the more accurate burst fire is. It appears that recoil doesn't instantly transition upwards. It accelerates upwards, slows down, stops, and finally begins to settle after every shot. Firing faster gives recoil less time to accelerate upwards and results in your second (perhaps even third) shot being much closer to the first shot. This would explain why the Braton seems to have less recoil when it fires twice as fast.

 

That said, this means that the problem isn't the gun but the way the game handles recoil all together. Higher fire rate guns will, if what I've observed holds true, typically have less recoil because the recoil has less time to actually happen between shots. I would not be surprised if the recoil from the first shot is cancelled all together when the second is fired. Same for the second shot being cancelled by the third's recoil and the third shot's massive jump up isn't the combined jerk of all three but merely a single shot's recoil being allowed to run the course.

It's not really counter-intuitive.  The gun fires faster and thus recoil is reduced which translates into less time for the recoil to happen.  Anyways, thanks for looking into this.

[Bakercompany86]

I've been using burst weapons in shooters since forever.  I was unsuccessful at making the Burston perform in the way you've mentioned.  I'll make a video and upload it later to show you what I mean.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I've been using burst weapons in shooters since forever.  I was unsuccessful at making the Burston perform in the way you've mentioned.  I'll make a video and upload it later to show you what I mean.

I'm sorry you're having difficulty with it, but honestly, you really can just jerk your mouse downwards.  I've been doing that ever since they changed it to a vertical climb.  It makes the weapon predictable and means that you can compensate for it and can get better and more reliable with it.  Are you running into issues with not sliding far enough, overshooting the movement, not getting timing right, or something else?

[LazyKnight]

I've been using burst weapons in shooters since forever.  I was unsuccessful at making the Burston perform in the way you've mentioned.  I'll make a video and upload it later to show you what I mean.

I do not know if you have either of these mods but if you use both Shred and speed trigger it makes the grouping of bullets tighter because of the higher fire rate. Also when you use the Aim key it helps burston it shouldn't ever be hip shot unless they are like 2 feet away.

 

The fire rate mods helping might be a placebo effect but the gun does seem far more controllable.

Edited August 13, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Bakercompany86]

I do not know if you have either of these mods but if you use both Shred and speed trigger it makes the grouping of bullets tighter because of the higher fire rate. Also when you use the Aim key it helps burston it shouldn't ever be hip shot unless they are like 2 feet away.

 

The fire rate mods helping might be a placebo effect but the gun does seem far more controllable.

 

Didn't even think of speed trigger....that's brilliant.  Trying that as soon as I get home.

[Icymountain]

Instead of buffing the burston, they should nerf the braton. Give it either increased recoil to match the burston, or increased spread so you cant hit anything from far.

 

Also, like many said before, burston's pretty easy to use and land headshots from afar if you get used to the mouse movement downwards. Its actually easier if you play with higher sensitivity. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Once you get used to it, 50m triple headshots are quite possible. Obviously you can do better after getting better.