We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

[r3dzer0]

Corpus section finally started.... having some thoughts and i can't make up my mind about Grineer hit-scan, that's mostly what troubles me about them when thinking about how to step up their game

Good on ya.  Grineer should have to apply the same rules with their weaponry as us.  Recoil should be accounted, via  an RNG since apparently we're so RNG based as a game, or they can just remove hitscan altogether.  Corpus as a group doesn't have hitscan.  might as well.  Grineer I think on  a whole have the makings of the baddest group anyways; they have all the elements they just need to rework group structuring.  Obviously shield lancers with elites behind them would work.  Maybe having a heavy leading with flameblades behind to teleport after engaging?   Have grineer not post up facing a wall? Had that happen the other day.  room with pit and staircase on  a ship with many pillars.  one grineer was literally guarding a wall.... i mean wth?  i realize they're all clones but don't they go through some sort of anti retardation training to ensure that the cross eyed and otherwise mentally impaired don't make it into their ranks?

 

I did think of maybe a new boss.  Well a rework of two current bosses into one.  I think amphis and raptor would synergize well together much like a fusion moa.   rescale their damage, and tactics and it should be an interesting enough fight i believe.

[Eisvogel]

...

 i realize they're all clones but don't they go through some sort of anti retardation training to ensure that the cross eyed and otherwise mentally impaired don't make it into their ranks?

...

 

I loled so much :P.... so true

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

You probably mean "ambulas" as the boss, unless you mean give the amphis (weapon) to raptor.... which could maybe perhaps work if he sweeps by fast and melees us? =P

 

And yeah hit-scan is something to be worked with, the auto-detection doesn't really feel right.... and as well as making the game challenging, i would like to avoid cheap tactics (like what they tried to accomplish with nightmare mode)

[ThePresident777]

I expect:

 

1)  To be able to select a particular nightmare mode, not just random nightmare mode.

 

2)  Friendly Fire NM, damage scaled for players.

 

3)  NiMs to address various nerfer issues, such as anti-matter.

 

4)  Ammunition Speed NM, all ammunitions travel slower.

 

5)  Heavy Gravity NM.

 

6)  Ice and Fire conditions should be NMs.

 

7)  Locations should have their own environmental conditions.

Edited September 6, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

NM mode is really an alpha attempt to do something that ended up being a total disaster, in my opinion it should be scrapped completely and replaced for something actually good for adding to the gameplay and enrich the game.

 

As it is, it's probably already too easy to abuse.... it should be toggled... but then again, you already get the same rewards from doing a nightmare mode in Venus, than doing so in Pluto. At least now you have to deal with whatever mission is in NM and not the easiest/fastest one.

But again, NM as it is..... is just a cheap you to create an illusion of challenge that doesn't exist......

 

I hope that u10 starts addressing the real issues and doesn't come as a major disappointment. I still have faith that they can get it right

[r3dzer0]

-snip-

yeah i meant ambulas, my brain was fried sorry.  I was thinking about it while i was at work, and it could possibly have electric fields that they use to disrupt players but you could possibly force them to disrupt eachother so you could damage them effectively. Might have to scale down the damage a bit, so you're not overwhelmed by mines and missiles etc.  When I get a moment, i'll write it up. 

 

As for challenging, i think squad composition, and differentiation can go a long way to increasing that, provided that 1) there's no radar to screw them up as in you have nary an idea when a squad will be around a corner ever( this should work with lore in that Lotus isn't uploaded to their network yet and sonar would still work as sonar) 2) they're never the same squad and they work in harmony.  I find it baffling that grineer marines/lancers whatever you want to call them just run around like chickens. 

 

Considering they're almost a page taken out of Warhammer 40k space marines( they are cloned and serve a power emperor/sisters) you would think that they would work in tandem to take you down.  Nothing like the silly grineer trooper with his strun or w/e it is running away from you as you head in an opposing direction.  or scorpions running around with their swords in circles.  Corpus are another matter entirely but we'll stick to grinnies. 

 

I think to offset however an improved ai, they need to add reload times for themselves as well.  Tile sets need to be more conducive to both grineer and tenno squad tactics. 

Sometimes I wonder if we're attacking it from the p.o.v. of many other games (rainbow six/Dark souls/WoW etc...) and then i think it still could take some good notes from these successful franchises and put its own twist on them.  Rainbow six was all about squad tactics, enemy and player alike.  I think they'd get some good ideas from it, but it all comes down to how much bandwidth telecasting enemy ai from 1 host pc will be required to atleast run smoothly.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

 

Lol don't worry!

 

I think that could work if they do it properly.

But the first steps of this new update 9.8 worry me.... a lot

 

But i won't call the card on them yet, i shall remain patient and wait for update 10 before i call this a step in a horribly wrong direction. Making new players suffer ammo starvation and forcing the new frame into the gameplay would be a terrible, cheap and lazy move..... i am really hoping this is not the prelude to that case.

[r3dzer0]

I'm on the same boat as you.  Here's how bad its gotten with nightmare. If its infested i can solo it with a newly built frame fairly easily because my weapons will just carry me well enough that i never have to worry about using energy, losing life or shields.  And while we're at it.... i really do not like the necro abilities.... soul punch will be cool, but the other ones, really have no place in warframe.  There was a thread a while ago that i commented in, i think you did to, was space ninjas vs space wizards.  Yeah this new one falls under the latter.  resurrecting enemies will just be op since you'll wait till its a heavy and your heavy will destroy everythng not to mention if trinity can restore health/timer.   My only hope is J-3 golem actually being a fun boss and not an overgrown bullet sponge.  there's tons of ideas for boss mechanics floating around here.  maybe we should collect them, sort them and place them in a uniform listing for ideas, maybe draw from them, mutate them etc.  it'll at least keep me busy haha, since i barely spend any time in game besides trying out frames. 

 

I'm not sure if you've played it but any of the newest NFS games have leaderboards much like they're stretching for here, and i think that actually might be the real goal here.  I'd prefer that there wasn't any of that in the game.  It ends up pushing stupid stuff like Nova's too op cuz she takes all my kills, instead of because of Nova i was able to escape that s&^%tastic disaster and can now focus on the objective.  I really don't think abilities are that op, rather the game is just not up to snuff to deal with them. 

 

We'll take a note from defense. enemies bunch up quite easily and funnel into a nice format that make Nova/Old saryn/ or any other aoe frame excel beyond belief. that's why people cry nerf is because we only gauge their utility by defense or now survival.  Nova isn't as super powered when it comes to other missions however. 

[r3dzer0]

ok I need to respond to this power spamfest comment real quick.  Notionphil actually had a good point he brought up in one of his threads.  Chance to resist.  If an ancient doesn't become affected by the molecular prime or bastille then it really doesn't matter if you can spam does it?  Secondly, like i pointed out in the post above we only see it as a spam fest because, and only because of defense and survival.  Outside of those two modes, there's really no spamming, just rushing which is another problem all together.

 

So in short, don't nerf abilities so that x frame can't kill y^nth enemies anymore.  if it can then that's its role.  We're supposed to be a team, but instead we get caught into leader boards.  This unfortunately is becoming competitive co-op, which is a sad way to do it.  Then this game really does become a rehashed version of Mass effect 3.

With this all being said, enemies can counter the spam fest

Notionphil's resistance is one idea, another is that each class can have a type of move/unit that can disable a warframes abilities.  Corpus generator( all of these things have been mentioned before if memory serves me)to block out map and energy, instead of having troll swap, commanders can have a shout with a cooldown obviously to remove buffs.  Infested can have a unit that psychic locks one tenno.  there's really no need for cooldowns, there is a need for energy rework but we'll work with what we have.

 

there's some neat stuff that people are doodling up in the fan zone: Corpus clergyman https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96733-alternate-and-new-faction-designs/page-2  can spawn as 1 of 3 damage types( might be four) so i would direct you there. 

 

also while i'm thinking of it....... did no one really like my vor raid boss idea :( ?

[Aramahn]

You had me at Cryogenic Dreamland. This would be such an interesting way to get more immersion into the game. And the possibilities and potential, temporary but sudden, defense aspect to the game. Where a GOOD team would have to stop and cover their ally for a short bit.

Awesome!

[Aryajmarya]

I really like the random events thing. I feel like with a lot of brainstorming, DE can make them work wonderfully.

But something that I thought of, is that why are they (mostly) negative.

The Assassin squad is there to kill you.

The Cryogenic Dreamland seems like a hostile place. And not the best thing when your allies get caught up trying to defend you.

Faction favours are a bit neutral, I will admit.

But why not create random events to help you?

I had this idea just pop up in my head.

If you get, let's say for the sake of example, 50 Silent (not necessarily kills with that special animation, because that would be unfair to people with weaker melee weapons, such as the Dual Zoren. Kills with the Paris work as well, as long as no one notices) kills in one mission, there is a 20% chance for a friendly-stealth squad to appear and help you finish the mission stealthily. And they have a 5% chance to mess up. So even though it is hard to acquire, it is still not the best thing ever as you aren't guaranteed a win with them and it doesn't exactly promote stealth as the best way to play.

 

Also, the numbers I chose seem a bit tough. 50 -> 35, 20 -> 25?

[Akuarius]

PvP Can be a GREAT adition... Someone already told me that Warframe Team is not focusing on PvP, I don't know if this is true or not but if it is true, they will have to change their minds, I mean, COME ON, all games similar to Warframe have a nice and CHALLENGING pvp system, and not the curren sad jail pvp room we have right now. 

[jpvi1207]

PvP Can be a GREAT adition... Someone already told me that Warframe Team is not focusing on PvP, I don't know if this is true or not but if it is true, they will have to change their minds, I mean, COME ON, all games similar to Warframe have a nice and CHALLENGING pvp system, and not the curren sad jail pvp room we have right now. 

no

[Wolfstorm18]

Notionphil's resistance is one idea, another is that each class can have a type of move/unit that can disable a warframes abilities.  Corpus generator( all of these things have been mentioned before if memory serves me)to block out map and energy, instead of having troll swap, commanders can have a shout with a cooldown obviously to remove buffs.  Infested can have a unit that psychic locks one tenno.  there's really no need for cooldowns, there is a need for energy rework but we'll work with what we have.

 

The grineer can also have a engineer unit. I didnt see any grineer soldier in Phobos using the dual gremlins, so heres the idea: a kind of grineer like the Seeker, but with a grey armor, armed with the dual gremlins, and the ability to disable warframe's powers in a defined radius around him, using a wristlet. The players, of course, will try to target him first, but he will be surrounded by guards.

[r3dzer0]

The grineer for the most part aee a cookie cutter lore wise from warhammer 40k. They most resemble the space marines faction. That being said I don't think that an engineer really falls into their race. Yoir idea is still a good one. Not sure what a good name could be.

[Paprika]

I get r3dzer0's reasoning behind resisting powers, but I'm one of those people that think that powerplay should be the focus of the game, not gun play. I'm talking about powers like Wormhole Decoy. Enemies being able to disable players' offensive moves like Fireball and Antimatter Drop, I get, but when utility is taken away in the process, a certain depth that the game had is lost. What I'm hearing is, "how about have zones or AoE's given to enemies that disable player abilities", and the argument that supports it is that we should be on our toes and be wary, but I also think there is a role for moves to be defensive, as well. We can Teleport out of trouble spots. We can't do that if all our moves are disabled. 

 

General Sargas Ruk. His powers are interesting, but not interesting enough to make him a decent boss. I wouldn't mind those powers being taken and recycled into abilities for Grineer Heavies. It'll add depth. His reversal field can be changed to affect damaging abilities like Tesla, too. This way, utility moves aren't affected, but offensive moves are kept in check. 

 

EDIT: If I didn't completely understand the concept/idea you were trying to get across or if I misunderstood it, I'm sorry. Forgive my misconception.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Paprika

[Wolfstorm18]

The grineer for the most part aee a cookie cutter lore wise from warhammer 40k. They most resemble the space marines faction. That being said I don't think that an engineer really falls into their race. Yoir idea is still a good one. Not sure what a good name could be.

 

 

Space Marines have the Mechanicum.

 

[Eisvogel]

PvP Can be a GREAT adition... Someone already told me that Warframe Team is not focusing on PvP, I don't know if this is true or not but if it is true, they will have to change their minds, I mean, COME ON, all games similar to Warframe have a nice and CHALLENGING pvp system, and not the curren sad jail pvp room we have right now. 

 

Thank you for your input, but PVP is already a taboo topic and also answered in the FAQ as well as locked in multiple emerging topics due repetition and such. The game is PvE, as stated countless times and the only additions to PVP were probably put there due so many people insisting about it, but there's hardly any point to it or anything other that what's said in the livestreams.

 

I will just say this, the game is PvE and all the mechanics around it make it unfeasible to have a real PvP.... you can notice proof on this in the dojo, frames and mods overpower everything else completely... there's no skill mechanics in the game nor nothing to build a decent PVP... that's why dojos are usually empty and no one duels, or hardly anyone does

 

With that said, let's refrain from bringing PVP here... if you want, feel free to check the FAQ or other previous PVP threads, but this thread has no place for PVP discussions.

[Demon093]

 

 

Current Bosses

 

 

   A good starting point would probably be the bosses..... bosses usually represent a big accomplishment.... the ultimate challenge of that stage/mission/world/etc. Here, bosses are just bullet sponges which you can kill half asleep or some even fully asleep. They remade Vor..... what's the change? There's no change.... just hide inside a frost globe... or keep your distance... or unleash hell into him and you now have to wait LONGER to kill him due those immunity states..... it just takes more time, that's about it.

 

Why not put some challenge into it? Examples of this:

 

   How about a boss that is NOT a bullet sponge? For instance, maybe a boss that chases you through the level.... or better yet, a big boss that chases you VERTICALLY and you have to parkour onto platforms or different floors, before the boss reaches you (likely instantly killing you) and you need to shoot him when you have the chance? How about that for a change of pace and a heartfelt experience?

 

   Leaving aside the parkour approach, one way or another.... bosses could use rework to actually be feared and not just discarded as another lame bullet sponge. Reaction phases are an easy way to accomplish this. For example, a grineer boss that from time to times stays in place charging a beam or a laser (whatever you want) and you have to react when it shoots you and dodge it to avoid being the new TennoToasty (it would bypass anything of course... no frost's globe handing or cheap safeguarding). Simple patterns that would you have to react and rely on your reflexes to try and do something different that just exchanging bullets or hide in a frost's globe or similar. There's a lot to expand here, and we could also get enemies to attack us in more interesting patterns, as well as making use of the terrain (like enemies that could actually climb walls or ceilings..... i mean come on, wouldn't it be exciting and plausible for the hyena to do that?).

   Bosses could really use more dynamic movements and attack patterns that make us react and adapt to the moment, not just immunity phases where we do nothing but wait.... that only extends the bullet sponge process.

 

   And it wouldn't hurt for challenging bosses to give better or even multiple drops (say, a big portion of random drops/rewards and a minor portion of fixed rewards to ease up the grinding and encourage the sense of accomplishment after defeating a challenging boss)

 

 

Raid Bosses

 

   Now that we have engaged the boss topic in a general manner and addressed the need of making them fearsome and challenging, let's take a look at the grand picture of the game. The game is PvE Co-Op based, but it really lacks a lot of elements to encourage that with the missions and things to do. And i would hardly say that void key beg spam is encouraging a healthy Co-Op gameplay.

   So how about this instead? Raid bosses special assignments/missions! We could take the revamped bosses to the next level. Say for example, that the Lotus Group has found a very important Orokin relic or valuable technology hidden in a barren planet, or secured in a bunker over an unknown planet, etc (there are many plots or ways to introduce different reasons for this, just putting some examples). Then we go there with specific elite squad, venturing into the unknown, oblivious as to what to expect and ready to complete our mission.

 

   To summarize, we would venture into a new unknown challenge for fixed great rewards and face the most bad-&#! of bosses, not just a pansy ready to get hammered, but the big bad voodoo of all bosses. These special raid missions could require a full squad to attempt, and they could even have limited attempts per day (to both encourage the excitement of doing something special, and also prevent abuse/exploit of fixed rewards from completing them).

 

 

I think that although I agree with you about the bosses and how they end up to be bullet sponges and I really like your boss-chasing-you idea, theres not a whole lot someone can do when they're in a game with 400 ping and the boss whos supposed to be chasing just ends up teleporting next to you, the problem is that there is always going to be the issue with internet stability

[What_is_your_ip]

I like it. Thank you Eisvogel.

[Makemap]

End game I figured it out should be in the Corrupt area. A large room with locked doors full of cover. The Corrupt has access to all the bosses. It becomes a pure boss fighting arena. Last boss is a unique Corrupt boss comes out showing itself(possibly very big). Who was the one controlling all the corrupt bosses first place. Boss is harder to kill than all the other bosses with mixed abilities. Even Corrupt Stalkers(spawn max 4) is in there.

 

Lots of BP, lots of rare resource drop(control module, neurodes, neural sensor, etc) and high endgame money.

[alocrius]

With this all being said, enemies can counter the spam fest

Notionphil's resistance is one idea, another is that each class can have a type of move/unit that can disable a warframes abilities.  Corpus generator( all of these things have been mentioned before if memory serves me)to block out map and energy, instead of having troll swap, commanders can have a shout with a cooldown obviously to remove buffs.  Infested can have a unit that psychic locks one tenno.  there's really no need for cooldowns, there is a need for energy rework but we'll work with what we have.

 

there's some neat stuff that people are doodling up in the fan zone: Corpus clergyman https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96733-alternate-and-new-faction-designs/page-2  can spawn as 1 of 3 damage types( might be four) so i would direct you there. 

 

 

 Man this is exactly the kind of stuff we have been missing in Warframe for so long..

Edited September 7, 2013 by alocrius

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but i think that's a very narrow point of view.

 

What i see instead, is opportunities to make a more tactical and thought through decisions with powers. For example, let's take your abilities..... there's a null field ahead? Ok, deploy a decoy to give you some time to traverse it more safely........ Or use that wormhole to tactically deploy the squad in a secure or convenient spot.

[Mietz]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but i think that's a very narrow point of view.

 

What i see instead, is opportunities to make a more tactical and thought through decisions with powers. For example, let's take your abilities..... there's a null field ahead? Ok, deploy a decoy to give you some time to traverse it more safely........ Or use that wormhole to tactically deploy the squad in a secure or convenient spot.

 

Except the problem is that would have like maybe 2-3 abilities/frames that could do that, making certain team compositions a requirement.

We don't want a repeat of "bring Vauban and Frost or get #*($%%@"

[r3dzer0]

 Man this is exactly the kind of stuff we have been missing in Warframe for so long..

Credit where credit is due, Mr. Notionphil, here's his thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/99502-ancient-healer-resists-your-molecular-prime/#entry1130638

-snip-

I agree, to a certain extent.  These enemies wouldn't be found in  every group.  itd be fairly intermittent.  as for enemies resisting, that's in most rpgs and since our game is so RNG happy, it can have  a 5 percent chance just for debuffs.  that or it can have resistances.  this is just to the power fest that the devs are apparently seeing to rebalance

 

My main point in all of this is no frame is "broken"  all frames have something that they excel at.  The only reason that they are broken, and that the developers need to rework them, is because when you get to level 100+ enemies bunched up in a group attacking your cryopod, only certain ones shine through.  In an exterminate mission, those same ones do not shine through.  In capture/raid/spy/rescue/deception they are not overpowered.  Just in survival and (mobile)defense.  Killing hundreds of enemies at one time is what they were originally designed to do.  and wasn't that steve's idea of the game? you have one badass ninja with skills killing tons of enemies?  well that's what they do, but people cry nerf because in defense or survival they ruin your fun. 

 

Defense should be replaced with NM mode of defense where you only have a limited number of waves.  That stays more true to lore, and removes the problem of them becoming to OP at higher levels.  The lore shouldn't be "are you ready to extract? cuz we have a team, but if you're so bloodthirsty that you can handle more, i guess we could wait to take that important item you're guarding back home."  It should be, Great job protecting that pod while we infiltrated and cleared an extraction route, lets go."

 

survival should also be something like you have 10 minutes countdown in a location because you've been locked out.  Waves increase in size and ability every 2 levels.  no more stupid oxygen drops >.>and then after the 10 minutes you must head to extraction.  Not only will this reduce the amount of insane clutter that appears on screen, but it'll reduce resource farming on both mission types and make other ones practical. Endless= endless rewards.