Will warframe evolve from PvE to co-operative PvE?

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

I am new to this game, spent may be 40-50 hours until know and i am MR5 now. Right until now, this game was pure PvE. There was no any co-operative sequences except co-operative door openings.

I am on Neptune and I nearly finished all missions through out the planets till neptune. I also did quests, daily and hourly missions. All these were PvE. Grindings, farmings were proceeded over these missions and again over PvE elements.

Now here is my question, I am hearing some special missions for high level players, some players are complaning about the difficulty of those missions and special updates from DE have come especially for those missions. In any of those missions or during my progression from now on, will i be finding co-operative elements in this game?

As a certain example, destiny's nightfalls, raids and etc. Is there similar raids which requires communication and co-operative playing?

PS: English is not my native language, so there will be mistakes in this writing :)

Edited March 23, 2018 by (PS4)Buyukbaba

[Teloch]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Buyukbaba said:

Is there similar raids which requires communication and co-operative playing?

Not anymore. The only thing where you might want to cooperate is rare sortie missions, and the only situation when you should rather cooperate than go solo is eidolon hunting.

WF is a casual game fit for solo players and for those who OPT to cooperate. If that would change in the favour of one or the other side of the spectrum, the other side would end up alienated and the revenues will inevitably drop. Thus why the cooperative element will remain purely optional for as long as WF runs.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Teloch

[theraot]

You can find some cooperative gameplay in high level. For instance if you want to last hours in defense, you will need a well tuned team. Also, the Eidolon hunts can be done much faster playing cooperatively. Ok, granted, none of that is mandatory, you can go over virtually all content playing solo. In general terms, the game is light in cooperation... it is more like division of labor.

There are warframes with plenty of cooperative support and coordination mechanics, however, the thing is, that you do not need any of that.

Warframe raids were removed recently. So you got here a bit late for that. They say they will return eventually, they want to rework them.

The clan vs clan mode was removed long ago, and it appears they will be adding a new version of that. Now, sure that sounds like PvP, however it appears it won't be, instead the clan mates will cooperate and rank up leaderboards. Although it won't be as cooperative heavy as raids used to be.

Aside from those, there is an upcoming clan "kingping system" that shows promise. Got to wait and see.

Edited March 23, 2018 by theraot

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

2 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Not anymore. The only thing where you might want to cooperate is rare sortie missions, and the only situation when you should rather cooperate than go solo is eidolon hunting.

WF is a casual game fit for solo players and for those who OPT to cooperate. If that would change in the favour of one or the other side of the spectrum, the other side would end up alienated and the revenues will inevitably drop. Thus why the cooperative element will remain purely optional.

Cooperative playing is also optional in destiny but main success of the first destiny is coming from those elements, especially raids and nightfalls, I guess. I also think there is no "a side" within PvE and cooperative PvE, I feel and see these two as complementary materials each other. If only one exists, then a PvE game makes me feel something is missing. It is a package and warframe has great opportunity to spread it's success to more variety of player types. Do I mean destiny copy, certainly not, but while I was playing, I wished for a real cooperative gameplay. Just my thoughts.

[theraot]

Do you have more concrete ideas of how cooperative play could look like in warframe?

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

15 minutes ago, theraot said:

Do you have more concrete ideas of how cooperative play could look like in warframe?

Nope, I just said how i felt. It is not my job, I am a customer, cutomer is the king, right?

[Nigolasy]

Real cooperative gameplay is comming in late game, when you want to farm relics or recourses effitient.

Two nights ago I spent an hour, maybe one and a half in a excavation doing 50 excavators on Hieracon - Pluto. If you don't know your team and want to do that aswell, you gotta cooperate and say "I am moving on to the next, keep the excavator save" instead of just doing what you think is right. One excavator needs two Warframe to protect it in higher level as the excavators level don't scale. So they eventually just are a one shot and you loose your reward.

Raids sadly been taken out, but DE said, they will come back in a new dress, so I got hopes for that one as they left behind a pretty upset community. They can't take two or three years again like with the Dark Sector updates.

Hunting Eidolons, as said, is pretty cooperative aswell, if you want to hunt 4-5 times all three of them in one night.

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Buyukbaba:

Nope, I just said how i felt. It is not my job, I am a customer, cutomer is the king, right?

Good thing not every one thinks like this. Warframe would be non existend if not for the players to support and assist DE. I don't want to say, that you should come up with an idea and write it in the concept forums, but thinking about a gamemode like this shows yourself how hard it is to acually make one. You need to come up with something, that's not boring the second time you play it.

 

Over all, well no we don't have much cooperative gameplay and you CAN solo the whole game but it's way more fun with friends :)

[theraot]

hace 19 minutos, (PS4)Buyukbaba dijo:

Nope, I just said how i felt. It is not my job, I am a customer, cutomer is the king, right?

If you have suggestions or other feedback, the developers listen. Customer is the king, right?

I will give you some examples of division of labor, perhaps it gives you some ideas:

Edit: Note that most of this is only valid for high level missions or if you want to last a long time in the mission. As I said, you can do virtually everything solo, or with a casual team, except you will be extracting much sooner.

- In defense or mobile defense missions, we need to defend an objective and kill waves of enemies. Thus, we give a player the task of defending the objective, the classical example is a Frost with a Snow Globe (a.k.a Frost's Bubble), while another player focuses on DPS. Now, they will need energy and healing so you add a support player, and you can have a wild card fourth player.

- In excavation, we need to collect power for the excavators, and defend them from enemies. A similar setup of that of defense will work, however there is emphasis on killing enemies. Instead you want crowd control and the wild card could be a runner that picks up power for the excavators. Another form of division of labor that will happen more often in lower levels is separating the players in two teams each one defending and feeding an excavator.

- in sabotage, hive sabotage, spy and rescue missions, there are sections with multiple objectives (removing fuel injectors, destroying hives, hacking data vaults and opening prisioner cells, respectively) that benefit from the team splitting up, this done for speed not because of difficulty. 

- In defection missions, you need to escord npcs across enemy territory. If you want to last long, you will need a player that heals the npcs and players that kills enemies. Also the mission will force you to split in two teams as the defectors come from different points simultanously.

- In survival - which is farm central for resources - you will want a player that boosts loot, a player that gives support to that player, another player that kills enemies, and finally a wild card that will either kill or go for live support if needed.

- In derrelict, there are vaults that require dragon keys to open. But each player can only carry one dragon key at a time... and we do not know which key the vault will need. Thus, we need a full team, each with a different dragon key, if we want to be sure to open the vault. Now, the mission will have an objective (usually people do capture or extermination) and somebody has to complete that objective, but we also have to search the vault. So, it is not rare to split the team to do that.

Also, have a look at nightmare mode, the modifiers increase the difficulty of the mission, sometimes forcing extra cooperation... such as using support abilities or placing defenses (Frost's Bubble, Volt's Shields, Gara's Vitrify) at strategic points to be able to advance... however, I have to say, that is only useful for low level players. Most high level players will be able to do nightmare mode as if they were normal missions - even taking advantage of the modifiers.

Edited March 23, 2018 by theraot

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

6 minutes ago, Nigolasy said:

Good thing not every one thinks like this. Warframe would be non existend if not for the players to support and assist DE. I don't want to say, that you should come up with an idea and write it in the concept forums, but thinking about a gamemode like this shows yourself how hard it is to acually make one. You need to come up with something, that's not boring the second time you play it.

 

5 minutes ago, theraot said:

If you have suggestions or other feedback, the developers listen.

I thank both of you for your replies. Of course if I have any suggestions and ideas, I will share, I donot keep my ideas to myself if I got a bright one for the gaming industry. But for now, I can only offer copy paste ideas, and you cannot expect me to make a industry change level idea presentation, otherwise I would be a game developer, level designer etc.. "Come with an idea argument" in an era of billions of dollars is not a efficient reply. If you are really in search for an idea, "more cooperative gameplay may be better for warframe, DE should consider adding this into the game" is my idea.

All mentioned examples in your message, theraot, are PvE elements. Not strictly cooperative playing. Of course because of the increasing difficulty through the waves force players to communicate each other but thats not what I am saying.

-Do you require a player to be in a certain place?

-Do you require all 4 players to be in certain places at the same time?

-Do you require certain mods, weapons, powers etc. specific to that mission other than regular character developement? I am not talking about character diversification and special character powers. For example, only an example, you cannot procees with a door if any of the players have no single tigris prime in their hands. They are stuck and something like that.

-Do you require certain four characters for certain missions? Example, you cannot proceed without ember, frost, loki, excalibur primes (which is very rare) in your full group? Restricted.

-Do you require farming certain 4 different elements thorugh out the mission and 4 different players keeping each of those elements stand in certain positions to proceed?

I just farted these ideas now. But, these are actually not ideas, they are examples for the cooperative playing I wished to see in warframe.

I guess you both thought I opened this thread to beat warframe, on the contrary, these is actually feedback, not beating. Please consider these as this.

 

[Nigolasy]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)Buyukbaba:

 

I thank both of you for your replies. Of course if I have any suggestions and ideas, I will share, I donot keep my ideas to myself if I got a bright one for the gaming industry. But for now, I can only offer copy paste ideas, and you cannot expect me to make a industry change level idea presentation, otherwise I would be a game developer, level designer etc.. "Come with an idea argument" in an era of billions of dollars is not a efficient reply. If you are really in search for an idea, "more cooperative gameplay may be better for warframe, DE should consider adding this into the game" is my idea.

All mentioned examples in your message, theraot, are PvE elements. Not strictly cooperative playing. Of course because of the increasing difficulty through the waves force players to communicate each other but thats not what I am saying.

-Do you require a player to be in a certain place?

-Do you require all 4 players to be in certain places at the same time?

-Do you require certain mods, weapons, powers etc. specific to that mission other than regular character developement? I am not talking about character diversification and special character powers. For example, only an example, you cannot procees with a door if any of the players have no single tigris prime in their hands. They are stuck and something like that.

-Do you require certain four characters for certain missions? Example, you cannot proceed without ember, frost, loki, excalibur primes (which is very rare) in your full group? Restricted.

-Do you require farming certain 4 different elements thorugh out the mission and 4 different players keeping each of those elements stand in certain positions to proceed?

I just farted these ideas now. But, these are actually not ideas, they are examples for the cooperative playing I wished to see in warframe.

I guess you both thought I opened this thread to beat warframe, on the contrary, these is actually feedback, not beating. Please consider these as this.

 

This is why I said, try to think of something :) It was not ment as an insult just to make sure you see how hard it is. I understand your feedback and I see it as that. I just wanted questions like those you gave us now, so we know what you are looking for ^-^

 

To your questions:

1. No, not really. In high level missions you need your Frost/Limbo/Gara what ever keeps your objective safe to stay with the objective but other than that, no.

2. No, not anymore. Probably again, when Raids return

3. No, the only gear requirement is given by players to other players for efficient gameplay.

4. No, Warframe does not and probably will never restrict their players in the choice of their gear. DE tries to make every Warframe usefull for most mission types. And I personally love the variety and would be annoyed if I had to use specific gear to play one mission.

5. More or less, as excavators are powered with energy cells you need to collect during your mission. Also the Shrine of the Eidolon maybe somewhat like that as you need to collect a Brilliant Shard or a Radiant Shard in your mission and place it inside to summon the next Eidolon.

 

Overall Warframe tries to be as variable as possible. If you want to Solo Run your Defense with Ash, then go for it. No one stops you. You can try out anything you want. It's like a sandbox game without building houses.

[theraot]

I am not looking for an idea, I asked if you have a more concrete one because I want to understand what is it you find warframe is missing.

As per the game industry, a demo goes far beyond any pitch. But that is not what we are talking about.

I get that I posted is not what you mean by cooperative, given that the example you give of cooperative gameplay in warframe are the friendship doors. For more similar mechanics the now removed raids were where they were at. They had mechanics in which players had to stay on a location to open the path for another, or where a player had to carry an item, and while doing so could not attack, required other players to defend, and stuff like that.

Eidolon hunts are perhaps what comes closer. However - at least the terralyst, can't say for the others - they can be beaten solo.

---

hace 24 minutos, (PS4)Buyukbaba dijo:

Do you require certain mods, weapons, powers etc. specific to that mission other than regular character developement? I am not talking about character diversification and special character powers. For example, only an example, you cannot procees with a door if any of the players have no single tigris prime in their hands. They are stuck and something like that.

Warframe excel in allowing plenty of builds to be viable (most of the time, otherwise people will complain), which is good, because it means that there is not a single way to do stuff. Which also means it sucks at forcing you to have certain equipment...

However, this reads a lot like the dragon keys I talked about. Once you find the vault, you will not be able to open it, if none of the players have the right dragon key. Sure, they are not weapons. Instead, the gimmic is that carrying a dragon key gives an specific negative effect, depending on which one you pick. And thus, you will want a player that has a build that counter effects the negative effect or to which it is not a big deal.
 

hace 24 minutos, (PS4)Buyukbaba dijo:

-Do you require certain four characters for certain missions? Example, you cannot proceed without ember, frost, loki, excalibur primes (which is very rare) in your full group? Restricted.

 

The more warframes are added - the more they are reworked - the less this is true. For example, Trinity was for a long time the only option for support. Now, Oberon is pretty good healer (hek, even Hydroid can heal), and Harrow can restore energy. Trinity is still queen, but she is not the only viable option. I honestly believe this is how it should be, I would find the game more boring without that diversification.

---

People will still build in particular ways for particular missions. Most frames has at least two approaches to build them - some have more - and people might demand a particular build from other players. And people will still talk feces of another player if they did not bring the right build or are not good at using it - Edit: It has been a long time since I last saw that, but I guess it might happen. Please report those people if you ever encounter them... I do not think Warframe would have one of the best communities if this was the norm. I do not want it to be, and I do not want the mechanics of the game to encourage it.

Edited March 23, 2018 by theraot

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

Consider my examples for specific missions like raids. For the casual part of the game which you can proceed until the end game supports your sharings here. I would not support opposite of what you both said because warframe is a special game coming with variety in mods, weapons, characters companions etc. It will harm casual part of the game, I get that. 

But, raid type of missions are specialty and I find them attractive. As a optional progress, they can be reconsidered. For example, some mods farmed in raids cannot be farmed in normal game, without changing character balance of course. That mod found in raids may add additional role to a character or a gun. This also helps variety of characters, weapons in the game.

Communication is the key here, like in the destiny, I personally think there should be some missions which cannot be finished without communication with increased difficulty. Again, not related to regular progress of the game to the end game, they should be separate. This will certainly attract clans, friends, hardcore gamers and who are willing to try themselves in a group of players. Just my two cents.

Really expecting to see raids you mentioned in a near future.

Edited March 23, 2018 by (PS4)Buyukbaba

[theraot]

Yeah, raids. There are videos on youtube, you should be able to find them, there you can see how they used to work.

Addendum: Look for "Law of Retribution" and "Jordas Veredict"

Some day they will come back, hopefully better than ever. We gotta be patient. However, let us not let DE forget.
 

hace 7 minutos, (PS4)Buyukbaba dijo:

For example, some mods farmed in raids cannot be farmed in normal game, without changing character balance of course. That mod found in raids may add additional role to a character or a gun. This also helps variety of characters, weapons in the game.

Arcanes ;)
 

Edited March 23, 2018 by theraot

[MacEifer]

Cooperative is basically built in without being required. Just because you can do everything solo, that doesn't mean you should. Some stuff is locked behind long grinds. Grinds that are easier in groups by a magnitude that scales higher with more people. Say you want to farm condition overload. It's a very rare mod that drops off a specific mob type. You can farm that by yourself at speed X, but 4 people don't farm it at speed 4X, they farm it at speed 6X or 8X, depending on how good your setup is.

Derelict vault runs basically are mandated co-op, as you have incredibly low efficiency farming that stuff with anything less than 4 people. Interception and defection are practically co-op only because they are hideously annoying solo. Apart from that, playing solo is just a choice like any other. The game rewards cooperative play without forcing it on you and that's all you can ask for in a game that has this broad an appeal. 

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Buyukbaba said:

-Do you require...

Anything that "requires" more that one player is an instant failure for me.

Sure, provide optional extras if you complete sub-objectives that can be completed with multiple players. Perhaps stack them up so that players can split up (to the degree the cell is comfortable with) and time their actions to maximise return.

That fine.

But most games that create content that "require" multiple players become toxic hellholes over time, because any time you force people together by dangling a reward or required progression component in front of them you will quickly realise that people have very different ideas of what acceptable behaviour is and that results in the "bad" apples spoiling a lot of batches.

I've played those games, I'm not doing it again, I don't have the personal bandwidth for it anymore

I will rail hard against locking any unique content behind forced teaming mechanics.

Edited March 23, 2018 by SilentMobius

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

1 hour ago, MacEifer said:

The game rewards cooperative play without forcing it on you and that's all you can ask for in a game that has this broad an appeal.

I get this. But I need to add that forced cooperative gameplay was tried and proven to be succesfull in other games. I think this, as an additional content, does not harm the current state of warframe.

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

I will rail hard against locking any unique content behind forced teaming mechanics.

This is really personal preference. But I may agree if the unique content adds additional and clear advantage to the player, in pvp for example. Actually, I can easily imagine paid contents, items which requires very long survival runs or similar gameplays, as teaming mechanics which are not very different than communication based team gameplay. Fundamentally, they are all same to me because it depends on personal preference, will to pay or time to spend. Communication requirement falls in the same era i guess.

1 hour ago, theraot said:

Arcanes ;)

So, arcanes mean that, i see :)

[aligatorno]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Buyukbaba said:

I get this. But I need to add that forced cooperative gameplay was tried and proven to be succesfull in other games. I think this, as an additional content, does not harm the current state of warframe.

 

Problem is that Warframe is not like any other game out there, so just because it worked in something like WoW, doesn't mean it will ever work in Warframe as well. You have a very clear example of that, the now deceased Trials which forced cooperation between players. <2% of the active playerbase actually played them.

 

[(PSN)CommanderKelpie]

I personally find that having the option to cooperate with other players or simply go solo is a better option than being forced either way. It allows me to take my time if I want to, like I often will when farming for resources, while also allowing me to enjoy playing with others if and when I want.

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

8 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

<2% of the active playerbase actually played them

So, warframe community is different than. I understand.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

1 hour ago, MacEifer said:

Interception and defection are practically co-op only because they are hideously annoying solo.

I would argue that those are easier to do solo than in groups, because the enemy spawns are a lot lower and more controllable. In interceptions you only have to deal with 8 enemies at a time, and those can be easily CCd by whatever frame you desire. Defection, since it's just against mindless infested right now, is also rather simple to solo with anything that can CC reliably. The only content that as of this point requires more than one player is PvP. It used to include trials, but DE did a smart and removed them, so that's no longer an issue.

I feel the way to structure the game in a way that doesn't lock out solo play while giving benefits to group play is to reward more coop play with acquiring rewards faster, which is in line with the rest of the game's structure. Need to farm a mod? XP? Resources? More enemies means more of all of those. You can do more tridolon runs per night compared to a solo player, too.

If trials should ever return, I expect them to be fully soloable, but allow group play to attain whatever they reward faster. Here's a stupid example, but one that shows what I mean: If every player would only get rewarded for one trial per day, but could get more if they joined a squad where at least one other person hadn't done their daily run yet, you'd have people falling head over heels to carry anyone through the mission and put up with whatever skill level they possess, in the process allowing those new players to experience the content and learn without feeling pressured to perform at some imagined "pro skillz" level, although players will probably still demand them to fill an idiot proof support role if other games are any indication. Turning players into sought after resources regardless of their experience level is the philosophy of this game, and it's one of the reasons why Warframe's playerbase has such a positive reputation. If I needed some resource farmed from an enemy, I would no hesitate to team up with some beginners and show  them some tricks while they're happy to have someone of a my power level playing alongside them.

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

3 hours ago, theraot said:

Addendum: Look for "Law of Retribution" and "Jordas Veredict"

Some day they will come back, hopefully better than ever. We gotta be patient. However, let us not let DE forget.

I watched Law of Retribution and this is the missing part of the puzzle for me. I hope it will return with wider variety in a short while. This will make all players with different tastes happy, I believe.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

It used to be common place with the 45 minute mark in survivals, paying for those extra revives, and tower key runs...it forced team work to achieve a goal. Forums hated the Void..and we got what we got. 

[theraot]

hace 1 hora, (PS4)Buyukbaba dijo:

hace 1 hora, aligatorno dijo:

<2% of the active playerbase actually played them

So, warframe community is different than. I understand.

A lot of players didn't care for them. I guess there were people who weren't aware because you had to go out of your way to get a key to access them...

However, there were clans that dedicated themselves to do runs every day.

And you know what? PvP has been even less popular and it is still here.

I believe there is a place for such content in warframe. For me, I barely played them (I only completed 3 runs, total, and failed 2 of them), at the time I played them finding people to play it was hard, mainly because people playing them wanted people who already know how they work... and with mechanics that were not introduced elsewhere in the game it was hard on the newcommers.

Which is why the Warframe Raid School Bus became a thing:

However, after I became aware of what they were doing, I did not join. I felt like I already tried them and had no additional motivation to play them.

I want to add that they allowed for 8 players to run, and - at least for me at the time - that came with lag.
 

hace 39 minutos, (PS4)Buyukbaba dijo:

I watched Law of Retribution and this is the missing part of the puzzle for me. I hope it will return with wider variety in a short while. This will make all players with different tastes happy, I believe.

I want them to come back, and to better than they used to be. However, I think this will take a while.

We have a lot coming soon™:

- Excalibur Umbra and The Sacrifice Cinematic Quest
- A new Open Area for Venus, with more Eidolons, and - probably - some new custom weapon 
- The melee rework, and the damage rework
- New enemy types for Corpus and Grineer
- Clan vs Clan (Dark Sectors, but not those that are in game) is coming back
- The Kingpin system I mentioned earlier
- And of course new Warframes (Khora) and Primes (Probably Limbo or Chroma will be next)
- Other teased stuff: A new moa pet, A way to command pets, new weapons (long katana), the dojo obstacle course, daily tribute rework...

Look, The Wiki has list: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Upcoming_Features

Oh, @(PS4)Buyukbaba check this out: The future of Warframe!? DE Steve reveals potential awesomeness

Loot at Dogfooding/Coding Warframe! (February 19, 2017) [From 2h28m17s] instead.

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by theraot

[(PSN)OerbaYunFangSta]

No PVE game requires communication. It only needs it when someone doesn't know what to do. If everyone knows what to do then there is no need because CPU follow the same pattern unlike real people.

Edited March 23, 2018 by (PS4)OerbaYunFangSta

[(PSN)Buyukbaba]

3 hours ago, theraot said:

Look, The Wiki has list: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Upcoming_Features

Oh, @(PS4)Buyukbaba check this out: The future of Warframe!? DE Steve reveals potential awesomeness

Loot at Dogfooding/Coding Warframe! (February 19, 2017) [From 2h28m17s] instead.

 

Thank you for your great effort, theraot. cheers mate