So...pistols Have 180% Multishot + 90% Ap, And Riffles Have 90% Multishot + 60% Ap...

[fatpig84]

Just make them all in line with each other and whining would all cease lol.

 

Currently 7 pts 90% AP are.

No Return

Sundering Strike

[W4RM4CHIN3]

You missed the actual problem there. The problem isn't that primaries need to be absolutely better than secondaries, the problem is that secondaries are absolutely better than primaries right now.

[Wooffgang]

You are all blind I think:

 

NOTE: Some ppl don't use Despair/Acrid. Idk if there are any left but Twin Viper/Afuris users apreciate the mod, Same goes for Vasto/Lex users. More like lethal torrent and the AP buff made these pistols usable once again. Or what now i'm supposed to load my despair with every possible Elemental damage mod + faction specific damage mod and forget any other secondary weapon exists? Don't try to balance the game around them. I don't like Despair, I don't like acrid. So I appreciate this buff.

 

On the other hand you missed out another thing. Hornet strike > Serration. So my max out Serration is 165% damage and my lvl 12 hornet strike is 180% Damage. Did I miss something here? Ye the rifle's are clearly underwhelming compared to sidearms on this session. But then again if we take Big Daddy Lanka the only problem we have here is Multishot not procing because of the 90% chance. Sure it doesn't matter on low level but on High end Damn. That is a lot of damage missed. Same goes for armor piercing. The 2 Armor ignore Rifles Boltor/Flux will eventually fade to not efficient because of ammo economy and overall DPS to the mob HP. Oh and I forgot to mention a Non Armor Ignoring rifle like the Braton will also fail even harder because it does not ignore armor. This problem is very noticeable on the supra since you cannot really get constant headshots with the gun.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Kyryu

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

I didn't end up getting the new pistol mod, but I don't need it. <-< my accrid can tack down anything faster then any of my other guns.

never even needed to put a forma in it ir max out the damage mods. 

 

when it comes down to pure numbers, the multi shot for primery guns effective dobels the damage you do assuming that both fire.

with pistols or shotguns, it douse alot more, and on secondary can triple the damage. with most of the more popular secondary this puts them on par with any gun, regardless of slot they tack, and in some cases (accrid) makes them more viabul to use then there counterparts. with ammo mutation, freeze, multishot, hornet stick, and the two nightmare mods on it, my accrid tacks down high level armored targets faster then I can damage them with my flux with similar mods on it. even if they came out with a new mod that added that extra 10% multi to primerys it would be a good thing. I do not think we should ever see a multishot mod on the scale of the secondary applied in the same way to our primerys, but being able to level multishot up to full to only sometimes work bothers me. even if it was boosted to 95% id be happy, but the point is it feels like it should never go over 100% yet be able to cap out at that level.

 

if the DEs are smart, and I know they are, they probably will not be doing another kill event where the top 100 players get an exclusive mod. the resion being is that for most of there player base it excludes them rather then encouraging them because they know that there is someone out there who will sit and grind these missions to no end or use exploits/means to get to the top that most players cant. there is no question about fairness of guns, it in fact has no barring on events like this. if you complaining about kill steals then stop talking, as you can always solo things. I expect thay will be doing more events that encourage players to work together rather then kill events, or at lest during the kill events have a hard number for getting awards rather then jest the top whatever of there players. the top clan makes scents as it still encroaches people to work together, but otherwise its a system that needs improving.

[Saenol]

Well... they sort of threw any sense of realism out the window when they made a game of space pirate ninjas.

The fact that throwing knives are stronger than a rifle is rather easy to swallow when you have a fully-armored and suited humanoids jumping, running up the walls, manipulating various 'elements' such as fire, ice, and electricity, and (soon to be) life and death.

 

Verisimilitude is not realism.

 

Realism (in Warframe) is both impossible and undesirable; verisimilitude is necessary.

 

It's not easy to swallow a weapon with a shorter barrel, held in one hand, of one fifth the mass, firing more damaging projectiles more accurately, with less recoil, even if can accept magical space ninjas without batting an eye.

 

Why do primaries even exist when adding a box magazine to a secondary would give you a weapon that was twice as good in every conceivable way? It's just illogical to the point of silliness and it doesn't feel right.

 

I find it hard to believe that your "fundamental aspect of what makes [the game] enjoyable" is the fact that primary weapons are stronger than the secondary. I'll assume that this is a mere exaggeration since I can't imagine anyone firing up a shooter game, and throwing it out the window as soon as you find out that your secondaries are more potent than your primary. 

 

I wasn't exaggerating, at all.

 

It doesn't matter how fanciful the game, or how unrealistic the world, it still needs to have some logical sense; effect must follow cause.

 

Inserting fundamentally nonsensical stuff (like being able to fit more damaging hardware in a small space, but not being able to fit it in a larger space) gradually whittles away at a game's capacity for immersion by destroying my ability to suspend my disbelief.

 

If primaries are in dire need of a buff make a topic on how to even the playing field such as fixing split chamber or something.

 

I feel that secondaries are more in need of a nerf than primaries are in need of a buff.

 

Buffing something else every time something prior was buffed too much is too inflationary. Better to revert a flawed fix, than be forced to correct everything else to compensate.

 

I like being able to finaly retire my despair so I can use other weapons now that there is a reliable way to bypass armor for the non chosen weapons that do not happen to be Ai.

 

The same problem with your Seer that has been fixed to your satisfaction is now being forced on nearly all primaries.

 

NOTE: Some ppl don't use Despair/Acrid. Idk if there are any left but Twin Viper/Afuris users apreciate the mod, Same goes for Vasto/Lex users. More like lethal torrent and the AP buff made these pistols usable once again. Or what now i'm supposed to load my despair with every possible Elemental damage mod + faction specific damage mod and forget any other secondary weapon exists? Don't try to balance the game around them. I don't like Despair, I don't like acrid. So I appreciate this buff.

 

I don't like throwing knives either (I do have them all, supercharged and rank 30, I just don't like them), and I don't have Acrid.

 

I still do not appreciate this buff. My Kraken can kill more rank 70 medium Grineer with one 24 round mag than my Gorgon (with higher ranking mods, and more forma) can with 117 rounds. Hell, with equivalent mods, my Kraken can often out do a Boltor against many armored foes. This is just silly, and if I had Lethal Torrent, it would be even more absurd.

 

The real issues with with armor scaling and armor ignoring/piercing weapons haven't been addressed by buffing No Return. It's a band-aid fix that breaks a lot while poorly addressing a lesser issue.

[LazyKnight]

I feel that secondaries are more in need of a nerf than primaries are in need of a buff.

The same problem with your Seer that has been fixed to your satisfaction is now being forced on nearly all primaries.

Acrid is OP and the full auto primaries are useless. Auto and burst weapon are not even good on their own merits at level 40. I would rather see Acrid nerfed then No-return left weak. Even my gremlins I have forma 3 times and have highest level mods are not OP and it is only 1 secondary that people judge ALL secondary by as if people use nothing else.

 

I still use my V-Snipetron the Sniper are eclipsed by nothing just the auto-burst weapon haven't been good since u8 and supra isn't good either. Nothing can beat Lanka in single hit damage and it is King. Shotguns are fine as well and they can get 150% damage and 150% AP tell me how that is weak....

 

Even if armor was fixed a lot of the auto weapon need a rework they have too low of a base and serration is too low. All the weapon that focus on DPS and are primaries fail, I haven't found a good one yet and I have rank 10 serration as well. Autos are just too weak and not worth slotting on anything higher than earth because they do not scale.  

 

If DE doesn't fix Auto/burst primaries in U10 you can bet I will be one of the people bugging DE to take a look at them again. DE needs to remove Rifle amp and buff serration, really how many people slot it and DE is letting serration stay weak because people might stack amp. They are also letting serration stay weak because of how corrosive projection works and you can do insane damage if 4 people in party use it as long as you have a weapon effected by armor.  They need to remove both of those Aura and keep Auras utility and fix the primaries.

 

I wanted the Hind as soon as I saw it, I like primaries weapons more as well and using pistols as my main weapon gets old. From everything I heard Hind sucks past level 40 -_-. so I do understand why your not happy.

 

I am not trying to give DE more to do either but they need to relook at those auras and see why full-auto primary weapons are so useless.  Serration could be 220% as well if they removed amp and they could also buff split chamber to 120%+ and piecing hit to 90%. No one would care if the Lanka or V-Snipetron overkilled for more and this would only help the rifle ammo using weapons.

 

I use weapon based on fun factor and for me the twin gremlins>seer>Snipers. I would like to be able to use weapons like gorgon, Hind and Supra without knowing that I am needlessly handicapping myself.

Edited August 17, 2013 by LazyKnight

[6samara]

just pretend all the secondary weapons are primary and vice versa and all of your tears will soon dry.

[EinRyu]

Twin Gremlins became my Primary's as the take down everything as fast as my Despair or Sobek.... Really... Sad... And I love my Sobek, but ever since I got Twin Gremlins and did a T3 Run with em and they shreaded everything (No potato or Forma) I started to feel the hit Rifles were expierencing, especially when I made Hind and finally used a Rifle again after long term use of Sobek which is at 150% AP and lemme tell you... the switch aint nice. Hind just felt brutally underpowered, almost like a Unranked Shotgun when I got to Phobos/Eris with it. And even with Rank 30 due to the fact that Rifle Mods cost a ridics amount of Mod Points in comparison to other Guns, you're almost forced to potato it to attempt to make it slightly more viable then before.

 

In the end I'm not saying Side Arms need to be nerfed but I am saying something NEEDS to be done with Primary's as it's honestly annoying when a pair of nail guns or a loogie shooter are making even the Sobek look bad, when it's right behind them DPS wise. And to the people saying Secondary's are fun and just enjoy it, did you ever think some people would like to use there 5 Forma'd Braton in something other then Earth because it's drop off is too high when you try doing Void with it? Or maybe make Gorgon viable again. Or idk, any wep that's not AI/AP which is currently consisting of more and more secondary's and less and less primary's? It's a problem and needs to be fixed, not because you think it's fun but because it will have more negative effects on the game later on as more people join.

 

(Especially when PS4 Warframe hits and those CoD players see it and jump on and find out there Fully Automatic Braton pales in comparison to some sniper pistol like Lex, can we get the ragers on board now?)

[W4RM4CHIN3]

boop

[Saenol]

I would rather see Acrid nerfed then No-return left weak. Even my gremlins I have forma 3 times and have highest level mods are not OP and it is only 1 secondary that people judge ALL secondary by as if people use nothing else.

 

I'm not talking about Acrid. Nerfing Acrid does nothing to all the other sidearms that match or surpass the majority of primaries.

 

Overall, my Kraken and Vasto out do all but three or four primaries, and I don't even have Lethal Torrent. Your Gremlins are certainly more powerful (killing enemies faster) than the overwhelming majority of primaries, assuming similar effort is placed in modding them.

 

Shotguns are fine as well and they can get 150% damage and 150% AP tell me how that is weak....

 

There are only four shotguns, and they are all terrible beyond 20m.

 

They are, and should be, some of the most dangerous weapons at close range, but even shotguns can be rivaled by many secondaries in this. Fully mod Sobek or Hek and pit them against fully modded Dual Vipers, Akfuris, Bronco Prime, any of the throwing knives, or a few others and there doesn't seem to be much difference in TTK, even sustained TTK, if you have an ammo mutator.

 

Even if armor was fixed a lot of the auto weapon need a rework they have too low of a base and serration is too low. All the weapon that focus on DPS and are primaries fail, I haven't found a good one yet and I have rank 10 serration as well. Autos are just too weak and not worth slotting on anything higher than earth because they do not scale.  

 

If DE doesn't fix Auto/burst primaries in U10 you can bet I will be one of the people bugging DE to take a look at them again. DE needs to remove Rifle amp and buff serration, really how many people slot it and DE is letting serration stay weak because people might stack amp. They are also letting serration stay weak because of how corrosive projection works and you can do insane damage if 4 people in party use it as long as you have a weapon effected by armor.  They need to remove both of those Aura and keep Auras utility and fix the primaries.

 

I wanted the Hind as soon as I saw it, I like primaries weapons more as well and using pistols as my main weapon gets old. From everything I heard Hind sucks past level 40 -_-. so I do understand why your not happy.

 

I am not trying to give DE more to do either but they need to relook at those auras and see why full-auto primary weapons are so useless.  Serration could be 220% as well if they removed amp and they could also buff split chamber to 120%+ and piecing hit to 90%. No one would care if the Lanka or V-Snipetron overkilled for more and this would only help the rifle ammo using weapons.

 

I use weapon based on fun factor and for me the twin gremlins>seer>Snipers. I would like to be able to use weapons like gorgon, Hind and Supra without knowing that I am needlessly handicapping myself.

 

We agree that burst/auto primaries are weak, but we have diametrically opposed suggestions to fix it.

 

To me these weapons, being the majority, and the archetypal long guns, should be the base from which all balance is derived. Thus they are not in need of a buff, but other weapons, and armor scaling, are in need of a nerf.

 

As for auras, I feel they can stay where they are at, and they should not be influencing decisions on weapon balance. If DE is doing what you claim, they have cause and effect backwards. Individual weapons and weapon mods should have been looked at before Auras. Also, Corrosive Projection doesn't seem to be a reason why primaries are kept weak, because it benefits secondaries just as much.

 

just pretend all the secondary weapons are primary and vice versa and all of your tears will soon dry.

 

This is often what I am forced to do, and this is precisely what my complaints center around. It's difficult to suspend my disbelief this much, for reasons previously stated...far too silly for a tiny side arm to be outdoing a vastly larger long gun in the areas which should be most directly limited by weapon size.

[LazyKnight]

We agree that burst/auto primaries are weak, but we have diametrically opposed suggestions to fix it.

 

 

I doubt it is as extreme as diametrically opposed, I want primaries to be the strongest weapon and side arms as back up. My issue is just AP>all and nothing else is worth slotting in any weapon, that is why I want AP build option for pistols until DE fixes armor. I wouldn't mind if DE made the secondary significantly weakened after U10, as long as they fixed primaries along with armor.

Edited August 19, 2013 by LazyKnight