Suggestion: Instead of the cash shop go P2P

[IllusionOfShadow]

I'd like to spark this debate. Hopefully it won't end in some rediculous flame war. I've currently gotten to the point to where I am stuck in progression due to the Orokin system and I'm not gonna drop money in a beta. But I'd like the devs to consider just making this game P2P for like five to eight dollars a month once it goes live. It would open up new possiblities in progression for the devs to experiment with and give them steady cash flow for updates or expansions. The whole cash shop just smells of pay to win which turns a lot, including myself, off from the game. Having a trial account basis to lock progression in some form would be much more viable. Just advertise it correctly and have it as free to try or download the starter edition or whatever. This will keep the game just as accessible without having it feel like a scam.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

There is no way in which the game is pay to win. All gameplay-affecting elements can by dropped and crafted.

[G3rman]

It's not a scam, and if you aren't willing to pay any money for a Free-to-Play, how do you expect the devs to make any money? You can play without buying, but don't expect it to be easy or fun all the time.

It's not PvP-oriented, its co-op. How can you make a pay to win argument? What do you win?

They marketed this as a free to play, going back on their word now would be bad PR.

Edited February 8, 2013 by G3rman

[SpiderWaifu]

I'm rather on the fence about this whole thing.

I don't mind that it's F2P with grinding required to progress. [i'm talking farming, not just playing the game.]

As G3rman said, it is a co-op game, so paying to win against bots doesn't make sense, and I don't see it in this game. However, I do see progression barriers.

If it were P2P, the grinding would ~probably~ be removed, and more tuned towards progression. I'd gladly pay x number of dollars a month for this game, it's great.

I'm going to save my "Why even have F2P games?" debate for later. I just can't understand how it's profitable.

[G3rman]

I'm rather on the fence about this whole thing.

I don't mind that it's F2P with grinding required to progress. [i'm talking farming, not just playing the game.]

As G3rman said, it is a co-op game, so paying to win against bots doesn't make sense, and I don't see it in this game. However, I do see progression barriers.

If it were P2P, the grinding would ~probably~ be removed, and more tuned towards progression. I'd gladly pay x number of dollars a month for this game, it's great.

I'm going to save my "Why even have F2P games?" debate for later. I just can't understand how it's profitable.

Major reason is because it encourages return players. Subscription doesn't get that (to the same extent) because to play again, you have to subscribe. Your profit margin is more variable and dependent on the player base and your content, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

One system or the other has their strengths and weaknesses, but both pigeonhole the developers into making the game in a certain way. F2P gives them freedom that is clearly important to DE.

Edited February 8, 2013 by G3rman

[Nephera]

Pay to play is dying out pretty hard right now.

[Saekas]

Pay to play is dying out pretty hard right now.

Pretty much this. And on the P2P system, DE would likely have to charge a flat fee in addition to a monthly fee, since that'd be the only way to reliably get anywhere. That would most likely drive off most of the player base. I know I personally have the funds to give DE 30$ (and I have) but I am completely unwilling and unable to put forward a monthly fee both because of my means and because of principle. I think DE would lose a large chunk of their playerbase pretty quickly at that point. Not to mention the current direction Warframe is headed in doesn't really justify the P2P model and they would have to completely rework most of everything.

[Archade]

Pay to play is dying out pretty hard right now.

Only because few games that are long-term viable are being made right now because devs dont realize proper grind is the soul of the genre and what keeps people addicted to the game, so they need to attract new people to try it once everyone gets bored and quits after a month or two.

Id be all for a subscription based model. Its not going to happen though.

A good compromise is a fremium system, where paying for a 'gold account' or something gives you bonuses. Something like, for $10 a month you get:

1. One reactor and three catalysts per month

2. increased crafting materials (when ever you pick some up, you get extra)

3. ~20% affinity/exp boost

4. Maybe some sort of special hosting service where premium players can choose to have their games hosted on dedicated servers

5. Maybe rewards for the number of months you stick with it, like, a (permanent) extra weapon slot the first month, extra frame slot the second, unique profile portrait the third, etc.

Just ideas

Edited February 8, 2013 by Archade

[Ced23Ric]

As has been stated before, I am fairly certain that such a massive paradihm shift will not happen for Warframe.

[IllusionOfShadow]

That's sad, this game will die fast it seems. And yeah it is pay to win pretty much. Drop rates on Orokin reactors/catalysts are beyond low. Putting a wall in a progression is gonna kill this game fast. It killed Diablo III and then the devs learned their lesson and are really just now fixing things. See the thing is you have to cash shop to max out your favorite weapons/warframes as well as get more slots. In the player's mind they feel cheated because it's like okay I'm playing this game and doing all this stuff just to hit a wall that I have to pay real money to get past?

@Archade: I do like that compromise, The Old Republic has that model at the moment and it works pretty well.

@G3rman/SpiderWaifu: "If it were P2P, the grinding would ~probably~ be removed, and more tuned towards progression. I'd gladly pay x number of dollars a month for this game, it's great." Thank you Spider that is the point I am getting at. And G3rman I have to disagree with a steady cash flow I see the devs having a lot more freedom to expand on the game. Ultimately progression holds players, grinding does not. I really don't want to see the potential of this game wasted.

[REDACTED]

The Founders program is pretty much a pre-purchase at this point. They may introduce package deals upon release that give you plat and other bonuses.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

They are looking into the Orokin system as it is well known that the system is not well-liked. Saying that the game is p2w though is just wrong. If this was a pvp based game, then yes it would be problematic, but it isn't. It's entirely pve which means that there is literally nothing wrong with not being able to get those extra slots immediately.

[GratuitousLurking]

The game's been advertised from the start as play for free. The devs allready are looking into the progression system, so there's a good chance the reactors/catylists won't be as rare in future. There's no need to jump immediately to suggesting pay to play for something so trivial. Because seriously, there's no logic in that.

I can see where a 'premium' account would work, though not simply making the game pay for admittence. That's alienating potential customers moreso.

[Nephera]

Only because few games that are long-term viable are being made right now because devs dont realize proper grind is the soul of the genre and what keeps people addicted to the game, so they need to attract new people to try it once everyone gets bored and quits after a month or two.

Older subscription based games are going free to play as well, world of warcraft is one of the last few holdouts i can think of that still relies entirely on a subscription. But they already have the cash shop in place just in case. Anything else doesn't have the money to keep putting out content at the same rate as free to play games, subscriptions just do not generate enough money for that. Plus a subscription fee is a big barrier to entry and re-entry for players.

Secondly the western playerbase that still wants grind and has that much free time is too spread out across too many games to be a market worth pandering to anymore unless you have plans for a small niche game, which you could do. I havent seen a lot of people think small with an mmo. On top of all that, perception has shifted and grind is pretty much considered a waste of time by general audiences. Games with less of it or with the grind tacked on to fringe parts of the game tend to do much better financially.

edit: Freemium still seems to work though when the rewards are adequate enough.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Nephera

[Blatantfool]

If this game went pay to play not a single person who hasn't bought a Founder pack out of impulse would stick around.

I'm sorry but Warframe will never be good enough to warrant a monthly fee. Other games, like Tera online, feature everything a Pay to Play game would typically need and even that wasn't good enough. They've gone F2P now.

If a game built from the ground up to be a full experience as a P2P game couldn't do it then why could Warframe?

As for the P2W thing, people wont buy it. DE gets defended about this about as hardcore as fans defend Bioware's SWTOR. Getting pretty senseless to point it out, it feels like most people around here want DE to run this game like a Facebook app.

[G3rman]

If this game went pay to play not a single person who hasn't bought a Founder pack out of impulse would stick around.

I'm sorry but Warframe will never be good enough to warrant a monthly fee. Other games, like Tera online, feature everything a Pay to Play game would typically need and even that wasn't good enough. They've gone F2P now.

If a game built from the ground up to be a full experience as a P2P game couldn't do it then why could Warframe?

As for the P2W thing, people wont buy it. DE gets defended about this about as hardcore as fans defend Bioware's SWTOR. Getting pretty senseless to point it out, it feels like most people around here want DE to run this game like a Facebook app.

Explain how it's pay to win. How are you winning? There is no direct competition, only individual growth. Shelling out five bucks even once, when used wisely, will have you set for quite a while with Orokin catalyst/reactors. Even then, you still have 50 plat starter to do what you will.

Present an actual argument instead of just badmouthing the game. That isn't how anything gets improved.

[Blatantfool]

Explain how it's pay to win. How are you winning? There is no direct competition, only individual growth. Shelling out five bucks even once, when used wisely, will have you set for quite a while with Orokin catalyst/reactors. Even then, you still have 50 plat starter to do what you will.

Present an actual argument instead of just badmouthing the game. That isn't how anything gets improved.

You've got nothing except ignorance of how important the progression of a weapon is to back up defending any feature that serves no purpose other then to stop your progression.

Which is stronger Einstein - The Frame with three mod slots and 12 points of stat boosts or the Frame with 10 Mod slots and 20 or so stat nodes?

Want to pretend one player isn't outright more powerful? I'm sure if you thought real hard you could try to use the tired old "But you don't HAVE to pay"

But the Daily log in and the Random Alert system aren't good enough. The items are neccesary for proper item progression. It is a blessing DE is talking about making the rarer stuff more common. We can only hope they increase the odds of those items. I figure the odds are good they might. Their Orokin items are only horrible as a feature if the only method of getting them is poorly handled.

At this stage I'm hardly hating on the game. It is one of the more promising Beta I'm watching at the moment. I'm not, however, going to call the worst parts 'tolerable'. I'm going to call them what they are. That is probably the worst bit in the entire player experience.

The rest is great.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Blatantfool

[G3rman]

Great that you have an opinion on the game, no need to be rude about it. Honesty is appreciated, not sarcasm.

That still isn't pay to win because the players are not directly competing with each other, it is a cooperative experience. One player may progress faster with an upgrade, but that is merely individual growth that does not hamper other players. There is a problem with the Orokin system yes, but do not make it out to be a player vs player problem.

[Blatantfool]

Great that you have an opinion on the game, no need to be rude about it. Honesty is appreciated, not sarcasm.

That still isn't pay to win because the players are not directly competing with each other, it is a cooperative experience. One player may progress faster with an upgrade, but that is merely individual growth that does not hamper other players. There is a problem with the Orokin system yes, but do not make it out to be a player vs player problem.

Didn't neccesarily mean to come off as a huge $&*^. Apologies. I've been arguing this crap in circles for ages. It becomes a tired argument. At this point I just assume people will respond with something stupid.

It is Pay2Win. You can't twist the definition just because you hate the implications.

If money buys you strength and the game does a poor job allowing non-paying members to have a chance at keeping up the feature is Pay2Win.

You pay. You win.

The Co-Op nature of the game is a buffer but isn't immunity to the bullS#&$. Things like that are poison to the player experience. It is bad for the same reason that it would have been bad for players to buy the rights to start with much better weapons in Left 4 Dead. It is bad for the same reasons people say Excal got a Slash Dash nerf. Co-Op sucks if it feels like you aren't useful.

If they step up the game and make the Orokin items less obnoxious then it wont be half as bad. They need to change it up. If the item is too rare it becomes disruptive. The player should pay if they want to, they shouldn't feel they need to pay because it is the only good way to get the item. You get that now, considering the fact that Random Alerts mean that the game just doesn't fit well with the fact that no one is trying to 6 hour binge a game with this little content.

It'll either clear up in time or get much worse. DE can fix it easy, they just need to actually fix it.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Blatantfool

[IllusionOfShadow]

@Blantantfool: Agreed one hundred percent.

@Nephera: The failing MMOs have more to do with lack of endgame content and poor design choices than lack of cash flow due to a subscription model. I will agree that a subscription-based model will put more pressure on the developer but at the same time offer them more flexibility. Warframe has a really unique model that could really go places.

And to address the founders that's a pretty easy fix. They'll just get a free subscription period that pertains to what package they bought and some extra items or whatever. Depends on if they do a server reset or not but appropriate measures can be taken.

[Gyarados]

Only because few games that are long-term viable are being made right now because devs dont realize proper grind is the soul of the genre and what keeps people addicted to the game, so they need to attract new people to try it once everyone gets bored and quits after a month or two.

Id be all for a subscription based model. Its not going to happen though.

A good compromise is a fremium system, where paying for a 'gold account' or something gives you bonuses. Something like, for $10 a month you get:

1. One reactor and three catalysts per month

2. increased crafting materials (when ever you pick some up, you get extra)

3. ~20% affinity/exp boost

4. Maybe some sort of special hosting service where premium players can choose to have their games hosted on dedicated servers

5. Maybe rewards for the number of months you stick with it, like, a (permanent) extra weapon slot the first month, extra frame slot the second, unique profile portrait the third, etc.

Just ideas

Generally speaking, I would imagine that there would have be a little more incentive than that. It's not that that's not unreasonable or anything, but you'll need to provide a much better, concrete, and understandable advantage. The reactor and catalyst should be done right when the purchase is made, increased crafting materials works (since most just decrease costs, having the opposite could work), but a 20% boost might throw people off who are used to higher bonuses. You need to give people something they understand, throwing out reactor, cataylst, so on and so forth, a new customer is probably not going to know what the hell that means.

That's sad, this game will die fast it seems. And yeah it is pay to win pretty much. Drop rates on Orokin reactors/catalysts are beyond low. Putting a wall in a progression is gonna kill this game fast.

It's in a closed beta dude, you cannot logically comprehend the changes that will be happening, and thus, cannot talk about the life of a game.

[Silenterr]

Why are people saying the game will die are you guys magically forgetting it's still in testing phase? There so much debate on the orkin and catalyst system that the devs have to be blind not to pay attention. Give it some time and if you have no issue paying for a P2P game then no issue then you should have no problem with buying catalyst and orkins.

This game isnt p2win you aren't really winning anything significant like a heavy pvp match or some high level boss that requires only the best equips , everything in this game is possible without a single purchase plz understand this.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Silenterr

[Gyarados]

People tend to forget that beta != full game.

[Blatantfool]

Why are people saying the game will die are you guys magically forgetting it's still in testing phase? There so much debate on the orkin and catalyst system that the devs have to be blind not to pay attention. Give it some time and if you have no issue paying for a P2P game then no issue then you should have no problem with buying catalyst and orkins.

This game isnt p2win you aren't really winning anything significant like a heavy pvp match or some high level boss that requires only the best equips , everything in this game is possible without a single purchase plz understand this.

People say the game will die because it easily could without a fix. This sort of conversation will likely keep right on going until the Devs fix it. It is mostly just a bunch of people worried.

Most of the people posting post because they are interested on helping the game through feedback. Feedback is both positive and negative. Negative feedback happens often when a feature just doesn't cut it.

People tend to forget that beta != full game.

You seem to forget that it is part of a Beta Testers responsibility to give regular and honest feedback. This kind of thing is that feedback. If all anyone did was compliment the game it'd be worse off, compliments don't improve a games weak points.

[G3rman]

Negative feedback can be just as useless if it has no base, or is not well collected/explained/thought out.

Don't get the wrong idea that this is pointed at you, this is in general. A lot of people seem to think expressing pure negativity over an idea or an object is being a good critic.

Edited February 9, 2013 by G3rman