Updating Valkyr

[Ver_se]

Why don't you guys just simply let this topic die? There's no need for any change on her (and not that DE ever give a f* about these "my idea for rework" stuff), just buy an arcane enrgize set and you can be in hysteria forever with insane damage and attack speed, done.

[GPrime96]

1 minute ago, Ver_se said:

Why don't you guys just simply let this topic die? There's no need for any change on her (and not that DE ever give a f* about these "my idea for rework" stuff), just buy an arcane enrgize set and you can be in hysteria forever with insane damage and attack speed, done.

Everytime when their's a "Rework Valkyr" thread, there's going to be another one like if the Topic is Viral. But this topic is more common for other frames than Valkyr.

[HanShotFirst]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

If it was re designed, i could tollerate building for it. But for something people consider a panic button to set a prefix that you have to build for it is pure and utter bs.

You can have playstyles dictate builds, Main abilities, kits. Literally anythings makes sense building for except for something that is supposed to be used at last resort. I mean really, does it make sense to that something you are NOT supposed to use forces you to abandon a weapon AND you frames build for it? Only so you get...what exactly? A little life steal you could easily manage with a single mod? A reduction with a chance for invulnerability if, and only if you flew from battle? Like you couldn't flee from battle in the first place...

Hysteria does have quite the requirements and cost for how little it does, whether you see it as mountain or not.

So equipping a decent melee weapon and adding mods like Streamline, Flow and Intensify to your Valkyr build is a huge sacrifice? Really? 

None of her other abilities, much less her playstyle in general would benefit from that?

You're not exaggerating even a little bit?

Insane damage, inherent life steal, status immunity, invincibility, and lasts upwards of two and a half minutes or longer. Yeah, how little it does.

[GPrime96]

18 minutes ago, HanShotFirst said:

So equipping a decent melee weapon and adding mods like Streamline, Flow and Intensify to your Valkyr build is a huge sacrifice? Really? 

None of her other abilities, much less her playstyle in general would benefit from that?

You're not exaggerating even a little bit?

Insane damage, inherent life steal, status immunity, invincibility, and lasts upwards of two and a half minutes or longer. Yeah, how little it does.

With Rage/Hunter Adrenaline and her Armor from Steel Fiber, she can get more energy while she's not in Hysteria so she can use Hysteria to get more health which gives her more energy. Managing energy is easy for Valkyr and she can have a lot of them left unless you spent too much of it.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb HanShotFirst:

So equipping a decent melee weapon and adding mods like Streamline, Flow and Intensify to your Valkyr build is a huge sacrifice? Really? 

None of her other abilities, much less her playstyle in general would benefit from that?

You're not exaggerating even a little bit?

Insane damage, inherent life steal, status immunity, invincibility, and lasts upwards of two and a half minutes or longer. Yeah, how little it does.

Lets see here...Compared to a eternal war build, what's essencially the same playstyle. What would profit? Eternal war? Nope. One cast/game is usually enough. Building for max strength is actually more favorable. Paralysis? Nah. Costs Bananas anyways.

Rip line? I guess. Tho i hardly can't not use it even with negative efficiency due to the fact that having health means energy management for her.

The damage? Nope. Melee with permanent combo or CO>Hysteria with reseting combo/no status. I actually have this channeling+toxic riven for my dual prisma cleavers so i actually have more, also permanent life steal that serves a purpose on more raw damage that sets viral and slash off that base.

Got an unused one for my scindo too that would result in massive damage and cc and compliment her suvivability even more. The difference to hysteria is thousands to hundret thousands to those weapons.

The defense? Nah...max armor + max strength + max life steal carrys you much further then a "panic button" build would. So by the time you need it, you're screwed anyways and you wouldn't be if you did build for it.

What you actually gain is status immunity (you're still getting jerked around by moas) and a chance for invulnerability while loosing stats, efficiency, utility and damage. Lots and lots of them.

A wukong would be able to rival this cause his primal fury is cheap and scales excellent with the gladiator passive. Hysteria can not. I'm not exagerating. You're just giving this mess of a ability waay too much credit.

...keeping the stats as they are but enabeling a health bar and a buff working on the absorbed damage would essencially put valkyr where chroma has been. Not o.p. but justified for what it is. Would this really be a bad place for her? Would changing anything really harm her when not using her hysteria is literally better then using it? She needs a change. Desperately.

Edited April 29, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

10 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Lets see here...

In short, you just don't want to have to slot mods that benefit ability duration or efficiency.

You'd rather rely solely on Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline for energy management, maintain high survivability via armor and lifesteal, and focus on maximizing ability strength.

Somehow Hysteria should contribute to this playstyle, without costs you can't trivialize, if not completely mitigate. 

Am I wrong?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb HanShotFirst:

 

Am I wrong?

This could be acchieved by linking to cost to the damage counter together with a damage buff. Somewhat of a high risk, high reward kinda thing.

The health could stay locked at 1 until you balance the damage out completely. At zero, you'd gain the least but have the most efficiency and you would be able to regenerate energy. At max, you'd do the biggest damage, maybe gain effects on tresholds (more attack range, running speed, aoe dps you name it) but you would have the risk of running out of energy and thus ultimately dying.

You're not wrong, high cost even fits her theme. That you're forced to toggle cause a point and effectless high drain that does nothing but...forcing you out dictates so just doesn't.

Edited April 29, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

This could be acchieved by linking to cost to the damage counter together with a damage buff. Somewhat of a high risk, high reward kinda thing.

The health could stay locked at 1 until you balance the damage out completely. At zero, you'd gain the least but have the most efficiency and you would be able to regenerate energy. At max, you'd do the biggest damage, maybe gain effects on tresholds but you would have the risk of running out of energy and thus ultimately dying.

You're not wrong, high cost fits her theme. That you're forced to toggle cause a point and effectless high drain forces you to just doesn't.

Okay, one more time for clarification...

What's the tradeoff? What's the "risk"?

You've complained the cost for Hysteria is too high, it's duration too short, and that you want more control over your mortality.

You're proposing that you should be able to dedicate your warframe's build to armor and strength (save one or two slots for Rage and/or Eternal War), and somehow still significantly benefit from Hysteria? 

What's the downside here again?

It sounds to me like you're expecting to sustain the ability indefinitely via energy conversion, and/or mitigate any true risk via lifesteal and maximized armor.

What am I missing? 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

Okay, one more time for clarification...

What's the tradeoff? What's the "risk"?

Damage for risk. No risk, energy management, no damage. High risk, no energy management, high damage.

You can literally keep any channeled ability on indefinitly if the frame has enough armor to allow it or if rng is in your favor. Wukong beeing the prime example.

 

Let me ask you a question, what may be the issue with using a ability that is not working on duration indefinitly? Are channeled abilities not literally designed to be able to be uphold? They restrict you, sure. You won't profit from energy plates, abilities... you can't cheese them but all of them allow you to keep them in battle. To not have to recast them. 

Why should Valkyr

A berserker themed frame

not

be able

to uphold her ability in battle?

Why should it leave you vulnerable, midbattle, with no energy at all? After all the restrictions it puts onto you? After all the energy it costs?

Edited April 29, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Shaw1996]

Putting Max Strength on Valkyr is like ignoring half of her kit. - Efficency and - Duration would cause obvious problem for most Channeling frames. It doesn't matter if it's Valkyr, Excalibur, Mesa, Ivara, you would drain a lot of energy with negative efficiency unless you would rely on the channeled ability in a short amount of time. Efficiency is more important with Valkyr because of WarCry and Hysteria. Rage/Hunter adrenaline can help with the energy issues besides Efficency.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Shaw1996:

Snip

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Eternal_War

You're literally loosing hysteria on balanced duration/negative efficiency builds. Nothing else. While everything else gets better, better then hysteria ever could be in its current state.

Edited April 29, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Vohim]

[HanShotFirst]

8 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Damage for risk.

Risk of... what?

You're arguing Rage should allow you to channel abilities indefinitely, while lifesteal and armor should mitigate incoming damage.

In short, you're lamenting a build focused on armor and strength (at the expense of EVERYTHING else) should have ZERO drawbacks.

What's the "risk" here? What exactly are you proposing you should be "at risk" from?

8 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You can literally keep any channeled ability on indefinitly...

Ask Ember fans how that's working out with World on Fire. Or Resonating Quake Banshee players.

8 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Why should Valkyr

Why should ANY warframe have to manage energy?

Why should mods like Continuity or Streamline even exist?

Heck, by that logic, why even have abilities? Why not simply make Warcry and Hysteria passives that are always on?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

Risk of... what?

 

Way to ignore the answer to your question and put it outa context to run your agenda.

A build that ignores efficiency now would ignore efficiency then an lead to the same results it does now. Logically speaking you would have shorter windows to do damage and would have to revert to zero more often, otherwise you'd have higher risk of dying. Thing is, building for it would actually reward you if there was more to it but high drain. It doesn't now. In no way does it reward you.

 

Ember is a horrible example btw. Ask Ember fans how she works at all these days.

Edited April 30, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Way to ignore the answer to your question to run your agenda.

LOL, what am I ignoring?

Outline a scenario where your Valkyr maximized armor/strength/Rage build would be at risk of ANYTHING under your proposed changes. Risk of what?? Please provide DETAILS.

I'll repeat myself:

9 hours ago, HanShotFirst said:

It sounds to me like you're expecting to sustain the ability indefinitely via energy conversion, and/or mitigate any true risk via lifesteal and maximized armor.

What am I missing? 

 

[HanShotFirst]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

A build that ignores efficiency now would ignore efficiency then an lead to the same results it does now. Logically speaking you would have shorter windows to do damage and would have to revert to zero more often, otherwise you'd have higher risk of dying. Thing is, building for it would actually reward you if there was more to it but high drain. It doesn't now. In no way does it reward you.

Apologies if there's a language barrier, but this is just word salad to me.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ember is a horrible example btw. Ask Ember fans how she works at all these days.

For better or worse, both Ember and Banshee are recent examples of DE's reevaluation of channeling abilities. If I were you, I'd be *very* careful asking them to do the same for Valkyr, much less extol the virtues of Wukong. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb HanShotFirst:

 If I were you, I'd be *very* careful asking them to do the same for Valkyr, much less extol the virtues of Wukong. 

Doesn't Valkyrs current hysteria essencially share WoF's issues? Was its drain not the model ember was nerfed with?

Ember can't manage her energy, what makes the higher drain fatal to her. It's the same as Valkyr. She lost part of her Cc, what makes matters worse.

Hysteria sure has higher defense but valkyr is currently able to build around that. In contrary, you loose defense when building for it as a full Eternal War build is able to manage just fine in levels where a hysteria build leaves you vulnerable due to its stupid high energy drain.

Whatever they do can't be worse then what it currently is since she's reached rock bottom a long time ago and now serves as model to *nerf* other frames. I see where you're comming from, you fear that they'd screw her up but seriously dude, how could it be worse then what it is?

Edited April 30, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Doesn't Valkyrs current hysteria essencially share WoF's issues? Was its drain not the model ember was nerfed with?

Nah. Ember's WoF went from moderately effective against entry level content to moderately effective against entry level content... with a stupidly high cost.

Your gripes against Hysteria notwithstanding, it still provides above average damage output, life steal, status immunity and invincibility. And its costs can be more than countered with a balanced build rather than one that fixates exclusively on strength/armor.

You just can't channel it indefinitely, which despite your fondness for Wukong is clearly NOT what DE wants.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Whatever they do can't be worse then what it currently is since she's reached rock bottom a long time ago and now serves as model to *nerf* other frames. I see where you're comming from, you fear that they'd screw her up but seriously dude, how could it be worse then what it is?

Easy. See Resonating Quake.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb HanShotFirst:

Easy. See Resonating Quake.

Resonating Quake is O.P.

Definitly not the best ability when it comes to restricting its use but it's a rather potent Cc in regular gameplay since it is really just an alternative to the Silence Recast that's been long requested for her.

Edited April 30, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

You know what the difference is between these two builds?

Config A
Armor: 82% Damage Reduction (86% w/Warcry)
Melee Speed: +65% w/Warcry
Can channel Hysteria for over 2:30 minutes

Config C
Armor: 87% Damage Reduction (90% w/Warcry)
Melee Speed: +125% w/Warcry
Can channel Hysteria for 20 seconds

~5% damage reduction
60% melee speed
7.5x duration 

So yeah, for a marginal difference in armor, effectively negligible difference in attack speed (virtually unnoticeable on anything besides very slow weapons), you go from an ability you can barely sustain for 20 seconds to one you can channel for more than two and a half minutes.

Respectfully, maybe you should try a slightly more balanced build before writing this ability off as "rock bottom"?

Edited April 30, 2018 by HanShotFirst
typos

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb HanShotFirst:

~5% damage reduction
60% melee speed
7.5x duration 

You forgot the appoximate 5000% melee damage trough a not reseting combo counter

Slash status off that base

Riven mods

The need to recast Warcry every 15 seconds for around 19 energy, what lowers your hysteria timer to something closer to a minute and a half. And the only thing you gain? Status immunity and pseudo invulnerability.

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[NoLazyShadow]

В 29.04.2018 в 07:22, Ver_se сказал:

There's no need for any change on her 

lol no. She need tweaks and hysterya rework. She is old damm it

[Vohim]

1 hour ago, NoLazyShadow said:

lol no. She need tweaks and hysterya rework. She is old damm it

honestly if hysteria needs a buff  its 20-25% base  status  and cleaving melee, even with primed reach the side swipes only hit linearly

Edited April 30, 2018 by Retepzednem

[HanShotFirst]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You forgot the appoximate 5000% melee damage trough a not reseting combo counter

Slash status off that base

Riven mods

You lost me. How are you deriving +5000% melee damage via the combo counter? It caps at an 8x multiplier, after a minimum of nearly eight million consecutive hits. Furthermore, how is it relevant to this discussion (much less slash status or Riven mods)?

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The need to recast Warcry every 15 seconds for around 19 energy, what lowers your hysteria timer to something closer to a minute and a half. And the only thing you gain? Status immunity and pseudo invulnerability.

Okay. Swap Intensify for Eternal War. Or just don't bother casting Warcry. The only things you lose are minor CC and speed/armor buffs.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Btw never bothered with armor calculators ... is the difference between 1650 armor and 5000 armor only 5%?

If the wiki's calculator is to be trusted, the difference between 1650 armor and 5000 armor is just under 10% damage reduction (84.62% v 94.34%).

[Vohim]

4 hours ago, HanShotFirst said:

You know what the difference is between these two builds?

Config A
Armor: 82% Damage Reduction (86% w/Warcry)
Melee Speed: +65% w/Warcry
Can channel Hysteria for over 2:30 minutes

Config C
Armor: 87% Damage Reduction (90% w/Warcry)
Melee Speed: +125% w/Warcry
Can channel Hysteria for 20 seconds

~5% damage reduction
60% melee speed
7.5x duration 

So yeah, for a marginal difference in armor, effectively negligible difference in attack speed (virtually unnoticeable on anything besides very slow weapons), you go from an ability you can barely sustain for 20 seconds to one you can channel for more than two and a half minutes.

Respectfully, maybe you should try a slightly more balanced build before writing this ability off as "rock bottom"?

can always run a build like the one i linked before with 245 power and 170 duration with eternal war, personally I shred everything apart with warcry and Galatine prime  , and use hysteria for reviving allies and shredding stuff  that has  massive shields   or has  adaptive armor(Sentinels/shadow stalker).

 

gonna want zenurik(60% channel efficiency) and the 60% channeling  +lightning mod  so ya can infinitely mash  life strike

Edited April 30, 2018 by Retepzednem