Updating Valkyr

[Pizzarugi]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:45 PM, VPrime96 said:

I think Nidus got the worst effect with Nullifiers.

I main Nidus. Nullifiers are as scary to them as they are to any frame that relies on powers: None if you're paying attention.

If you fail to see a big blue or gold humming bubble slowly shuffling its way to you, you deserve to have your mutations drained, your link broken, and your flesh garden mowed. :P

Edited April 30, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb HanShotFirst:

You lost me. How are you deriving +5000% melee damage via the combo counter? It caps at an 8x multiplier, after a minimum of nearly eight million consecutive hits. Furthermore, how is it relevant to this discussion (much less slash status or Riven mods)?

250 basedamage doesn't really compare to blood rush, maiming strike, scaling status pushed by stance and combo multipliers... and the speed buff, that one makes you reach those 5 million pretty fast in longer games.

...each crit rank is a final multiplier after everything else. Remember how the telos boltace was nerfed not too long ago? Reason was that it could cheese combo buildup, rather then the low damage nuke attached to it.

Condition overload is literally able to reach a 450x multiplier. Nah really, look.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Condition_Overload

Melee is pretty darn overpowered by default. It's intendet to be. Valkyr may be able to do...goodisch damage compared to some guns but for a melee weapon ability, it is weak af simply because it's designed to reset your counter.

How is it irrelevant that you loose a allmost infinite, scaling damage potential using a ability that drains waaay too much energy for simply pseudo invulnerability? Because what? Because the devs thought it was o.p. for a frame to survive high damage at the time?

Edited April 30, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

7 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

250 basedamage doesn't really compare to blood rush, maiming strike, scaling status pushed by stance and combo multipliers... and the speed buff, that one makes you reach those 5 million pretty fast in longer games.

...each crit rank is a final multiplier after everything else. Remember how the telos boltace was nerfed not too long ago? Reason was that it could cheese combo buildup, rather then the low damage nuke attached to it.

Condition overload is literally able to reach a 450x multiplier. Nah really, look.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Condition_Overload

Melee is pretty darn overpowered by default. It's intendet to be. Valkyr may be able to do...goodisch damage compared to some guns but for a melee weapon ability, it is weak af simply because it's designed to reset your counter.

How is it irrelevant that you loose a allmost infinite, scaling damage potential using a ability that drains waaay too much energy for simply pseudo invulnerability? Because what? Because the devs thought it was o.p. for a frame to survive high damage at the time?

Right, because none of the other warframes' exalted modes reset the combo counter. Just Valkyr's. 

So yeah, anything short of a Hysteria that pumps out +5000% melee damage, doesn't reset your counter, and can be maintained indefinitely with nothing more than a Rage mod is simply unacceptable. Oh and status immunity and invincibility are worthless. Got it.

Good luck with those *very* reasonable expectations and keep living the dream.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

Right, because none of the other warframes' exalted modes reset the combo counter. Just Valkyr's. 

Wukong is rather reasonable in cost. Cloud walker can save your bum from falling and his block combo is a nullie killer. Not to mention that his augument pushes his crit chance to... what was it? 70? 80%? You gotta be really, really bad with him to have it reset and you gain much from lower counters even then.

Excal provides a savage base for CO to work on. It doesn't matter for him.

Valkyr is really just the one exception among the pure melee users.

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

So yeah, anything short of a Hysteria that pumps out +5000% melee damage, doesn't reset your counter, and can be maintained indefinitely with nothing more than a Rage mod is simply unacceptable. 

You mean like normal melee does? I'm not saying that you need to utilize melee propperly, screw your builds up all you want if you find it unacceptable for melee to be strong but for hysteria to be inferior to...not using it is bulls**t.

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[GPrime96]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Wukong is rather reasonable in cost. Cloud walker can save your bum from falling and his block combo is a nullie killer. Not to mention that his augument pushes his crit chance to... what was it? 70? 80%? You gotta be really, really bad with him to have it reset and you gain much from little even then.

I wonder why people hate him so much then?

[HanShotFirst]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You mean like normal melee does?

Yes, "normal" melee. The numbers you're citing aren't at all exceptional, or the product of excessive theory crafting. Nope.

Which apparently still isn't good enough? You want more on top of that--just not invincibility or status immunity--with the zero-sum cost of only having to equip a Rage mod. Seems pretty reasonable.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb VPrime96:

I wonder why people hate him so much then?

For one it doesn't seem to be well known just how big of a potential primal fury has. I mean the crit base alone rivals maiming strike slides, per hit rather then sliding...can't argue results. I have never seen anyone mention it tho. The second reason may be that DE has pretty much abandoned him since his release. They made big promises back then....His primal fury was supposed to cover a map with its range, cloud walker was supposed to be fast and stunlock CC enemys and his Iron Jab could have had much more widh then it has now.

Insider info: cloud walker even got voted to recieve a massive speed boost with its Augument by the design council close after his release, which he never recieved.

Wouldn't know about people hating him. He sure got his issues too but he's still well played and outclasses valkyr in her own game regardless.

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

Yes, "normal" melee. The numbers you're citing aren't at all exceptional, or the product of excessive theory crafting. Nope.

Which apparently still isn't good enough? You want more on top of that--just not invincibility or status immunity--with the zero-sum cost of only having to equip a Rage mod. Seems pretty reasonable.

No they are not. Not much of a melee player are you?

Like most frames with as much as above average survivability. Yes.

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

No they are not. Not much of a melee player are you?

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying any of that is unobtainable (though I'm a little dubious on the "pretty fast" five million). 

I'm saying you're comparing this to the high end of the curve--content I suspect the average player will never see. Pretty much *all* Warframe abilities fall short by that measure, or they get nerfed.

All I'm saying is you might want to rein in those expectations. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

. Pretty much *all* Warframe abilities fall short by that measure, or they get nerfed.

Not just abilities, guns too. Melee doesn't have theyr range tho, it has build up...what may just be the reason the balance is the way it is. There is a norm for melee and Hysteria falls short, no matter what your point is.

 

[HanShotFirst]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

There is a norm for melee and Hysteria falls short, no matter what your point is.

Because you want it to be an analog to Wukong's Primal Fury.

Personally, I see it as more akin to Nyx's Absorb... with inherent mobility, and lifesteal. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

Because you want it to be an analog to Wukong's Primal Fury.

Personally, I see it as more akin to Nyx's Absorb... with inherent mobility, and lifesteal. 

Is there anything keeping nyx from using actuall melee?...

[HanShotFirst]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Is there anything keeping nyx from using actuall melee?...

You mean other than the self-root and locked animation that can only be semi-compensated for via the Assimilate augment mod? Nah, I guess?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

You mean other than the self-root and locked animation that can only be semi-compensated for via the Assimilate augment mod? Nah, I guess?

Building for it can't be the issue appearently. Plus there's multiple stances that make a movement penalty irrelevant. Nyx is also somewhat of an odd example...

What about rhino who has no penalty?0 Nezha? Zephyr? Nekros? Oberon? IA Frost?Any invisibility user? Don't all of them basicky share what valkyr has with no drawback whatsoever?

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Building for it can't be the issue appearently. Plus there's multiple stances that make a movement penalty irrelevant.

I mean you can't jump, can't slide, not even sure if you can crouch, but sure... I guess the right stances might help overcome *some* of that. At least it doesn't reset the combo counter, so you've got that going for you.

54 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Nyx is also somewhat of an odd example...

It's an example of absolute invincibility. Apples to apples.

54 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

What about rhino who has no penalty?0 Nezha? Zephyr? Nekros? Oberon? IA Frost?Any invisibility user? Don't all of them basicky share what valkyr has with no drawback whatsoever?

Honestly, I'm not familiar with all of those frames (Nezha & Zephyr especially). Are we equating armor buffs and/or damage resistance to invincibility now? Out of all of them, Rhino is the only one to stand out as a genuine analog, though the duration is nothing to write home about.

And invisibility? As great as it is for obvious reasons (golly I miss the old version of Naramon), it isn't invincibility by any stretch. Existing DoTs and AoEs retain their lethality. 

If we're just gonna go with the kinda, sorta, basically the same thing route, then we may as well say your +5000% melee combo dmg is roughly equivalent to Hysteria's base dmg.

[GPrime96]

With Max efficency (Hysteria's drain scales better with Max Efficency than Duration and Efficency even though the ability scales with Duration), Primed Flow, and some duration in Valkyr Prime, Hysteria can last for three Minutes. Three Minutes of you not taking damage unlike with DR because DR only reduce the amount of damage you taken. If you Compare Lech Kril to a Napalm, you would get the idea.

Edited May 1, 2018 by VPrime96

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb HanShotFirst:

 

Honestly, I'm not familiar with all of those frames (Nezha & Zephyr especially). Are we equating armor buffs and/or damage resistance to invincibility now? Out of all of them, Rhino is the only one to stand out as a genuine analog, though the duration is nothing to write home about.

And invisibility? As great as it is for obvious reasons (golly I miss the old version of Naramon), it isn't invincibility by any stretch. Existing DoTs and AoEs retain their lethality. 

If we're just gonna go with the kinda, sorta, basically the same thing route, then we may as well say your +5000% melee combo dmg is roughly equivalent to Hysteria's base dmg.

Not necessarly. While nezhas ward is inferior tho Rhinos Iron skin, it shares the same mechanic of scaling off enemy damage on greater Cc. So does Frosts bubble, Icy Avalance gives you the status immunity. Zephys Averts all types of bullets... immunity to bullets paired with close range Cc (like that of Tempo Royale) really just equal pseudo invulnerability....hell i main her for a while now. Can't remember to have died once ever since her tweaks. Oberon sure ain't invulnerable but the combination of Cc, armor and heals make him facetank perfectly fine in levels valkyr is long overdue using Hysteria and more vulnerable regenerating energy.

As far as reductions go...i've seen a calc on reddit that compared pre nerf ice chromas max max reduction with the synergy between medicore armor (health conversion -450 armor +90 basearmor back then) and a strong damage reduction... was it 5? 10% weaker to have a 90% damage reduction on 500 armor? Wasn't chroma known to facetank in levels valkyr has become long unable to survive any bit of damage outside of hysteria? 

With the change to Arcane Guardian, using this has become possible and stronger for Nekros (shield of shadows), Trinity (Bless) and Gara (shatter shield)

And invisibility? I mean sure, aoe but doesn't valky have to flee from LoS? How is controllable damage not comparable to controllable invulnerability?

 

All of them would be able to use melee (except for maybe Gara if she's using the Shatter Shield damage at all, which is even superior by a margin) to kill foes Valkyr would be long unable to kill, suviving those levels each with theyr own strategys. I'm aware that i'm not comparing apples to apples here but straight up invulnerability is unnecessary outside of...how did you say it?

vor 7 Stunden schrieb HanShotFirst:

 the product of excessive theory crafting. 

It is plenty for them to be able to survive perfectly fine while providing a unrestricted base for you to do things you could only dream off while using hysteria. All of them arguably provide what you consider unrealistic and unacceptable on a equal/better power efficiency. Why should Valkyr be inferior to this? Her invulnerability i consider hardly a reason.

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[HanShotFirst]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I'm aware that i'm not comparing apples to apples here but straight up invulnerability is unnecessary...

Yet 5000% melee damage, a 450x multiplier, and a non-resetting combo meter with five million consecutive hits is?

[(PSN)OvalNova]

On 4/23/2018 at 1:29 AM, VioletGoblin said:

I feel her passive should be changed to build in melee life strike (about 10-20% life steal) instead of faster knock down recovery. This plays into her being a melee frame and gives her a more integrated way to recover health without have to use hysteria just to top off her health. And since Nidus passive is constant health regen, I don't see how this change could be considered ridiculous.

Aw but I love her Passive! It makes parkouring MUCH more fun now that you can't randomly fall to your knees when on unbalanced terrain (Such as PoE)

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb HanShotFirst:

Yet 5000% melee damage, a 450x multiplier, and a non-resetting combo meter with five million consecutive hits is?

Scaling damage appropiate to your progression in games sure is. What's the invulnerability worth once you'll become unable to kill.

Might as well not play at all and don't take spots.

[HanShotFirst]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Scaling damage appropiate to your progression in games sure is. What's the invulnerability worth once you'll become unable to kill.

I'd really like to know what you're "unable to kill" without sustained throughput of that magnitude, but doesn't pose enough of a threat to merit the usefulness of invulnerability even once in a blue moon.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Might as well not play at all and don't take spots.

"Hey guys, might as well not play at all if you don't have god roll Rivens, multi-forma'd gear, and a full set of arcanes."

[Tuoweit]

On 2018-04-30 at 11:57 AM, HanShotFirst said:

just under 10% damage reduction (84.62% v 94.34%).

 

That's a 63% (relative) damage reduction:    100 - ( ( 100 - 94.34) / (100 - 84.62) )

That is, 94.34% DR only takes 36% of the damage of 84.62% DR.  Of course it's all approximate and changes based on actual damage done.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb HanShotFirst:

 

"Hey guys, might as well not play at all if you don't have god roll Rivens, multi-forma'd gear, and a full set of arcanes."

Might as well not dragg your squad down with results that equal afk. Or are you really convinced that 250 basedamage with no scaling or status whatsoever are gonna cut it against high level armored enemys where invulnerability makes sense? There's a limit to how delusional someone can be.

This isn't even about rivens. This is about basic melee mods that won't work due to its reset mechanic.

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[GPrime96]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

are you really convinced that 250 basedamage with no scaling or status whatsoever are gonna cut it against high level armored enemys where invulnerability makes sense?

It depends on how high you think “high level” is. To me, high level would be 150+ but there’s players who think lvl 100+ is. The higest i reached with her was at lvl 180+ in the Kuva Fortress in a team and MOT in Solo. But that’s when i was using the old account.

Edited May 1, 2018 by VPrime96