Why Progression Kinda Sucks

[aTaVaX]

There are many different forms of progression in Warframe. Which is good, i think, because it allows you to get frequent carrots without making you progress too quickly through any specific area. Going to try to quickly list the different ways to progress real quick for reference sake, level primary, level secondary, level melee, level frame, level character, find mods, find blue prints, gather resources, craft blue prints, unlock new levels, find items through alerts. I think its too hard to do multiple at the same time though, so instead of getting frequent carrots, we don't have a clear direction because we have to do completely different things to progress our character. If i'm leveling a primary, i can't really level any other weapon at the same time. If i am farming max level mods then i can't level a weapon or a frame and will likely have all the blue prints and resources from that zone fairly shortly. If i'm farming a rare resource it will likely be too difficult to level a weapon, but too low to get useful mods from; i'm pulled in completely opposite directions and always feel unproductive in certain aspects of progression so i just stop trying to progress and stop playing.

Edited February 8, 2013 by aTaVaX

[CapricaSix]

If it's not fast enough for you, you could always get Affinity Booster and double the amount of XP you're getting. Just a suggestion.

Aside from that, I think it's perfectly fine for the most part, but maybe the melee weapons might need a little buff on the XP side. Personally I'm loving the rank system, as in leveling only what you often use.

Edited February 8, 2013 by CapricaSix

[aTaVaX]

the complaint is not about speed.

Edited February 8, 2013 by aTaVaX

[HUmar]

I think it is good that they have a lot of ways to progress, personaly I like geting my mastery rank up by LvLing as many equipment to 30 as poseble! While an other person has a way more fun farming mods. I don't see the problem.

[[DE]Steve]

I suppose this is the problem with Warframe's item-based level vs. character-based level. We've even got player level on top of that, which is a big push for us now. Some people like picking their own goals from a large array of options. Others feel like it is too-much, too-soon.

One possible improvement we have in the queue is to call out some specific advancement objective so that if you're feeling overwhelmed it can give you a focus to pursue.

That said, we are trying our best to make Warframe feel different so the advancement systems are unfamiliar, which is for better or worse: 'by design'.

[TheRealTuna]

I think this might be the first time I've heard of someone being unhappy at having a lot to do.

So you need to level your primary weapon, your secondary weapon, and your melee weapon, but you also need to farm a specific material that requires you to use your higher level gear...so pick an objective and follow through! There are so many games that suffer from a severe lack of things to accomplish. It is ultimately a good thing that you feel like there is a lot to do. I personally feel like that there is NOT much left to do, which is unfortunate. Having a lot of goals is a great thing in a game. Just devote your time to one objective at a time if you feel overwhelmed by how much there is to accomplish.

[aTaVaX]

it actually isn't different things to do because all the missions feel almost identical. Its doing the same thing, but only accomplishing 1 thing at a time

[TheRealTuna]

Well if that's how you feel, then the issue you're having isn't one of progression or having too many objectives, it's one of feeling that the gameplay and missions are repetitive...which is understandable. Despite the "variety" of missions -- sabotage, deception, rescue, etc -- they all feel more or less the same. The missions that require you to destroy a reactor or acquire an ancient artifact involve doing the same exact thing. Rescue doesn't feel challenging at all as your hostage seems basically immortal.

Essentially, I would argue that there are really 4 mission types:

- Extermination

- Defense

- Assassination

- Everything else

I think it's safe to say that noone enjoy the missions that fall into the "everything else" category as they are much less stimulating than the others. But the other 3 -- Extermination, Defense, and Assassination -- seem decent. I think the other mission types would benefit from another look, though.

Anyway, players who continue to play this game presumably enjoy the game, and any game will have certain degrees of repetitiveness involved. If you aren't having fun with the game, why are you playing @_@?

Edited February 8, 2013 by TheRealTuna

[CapricaSix]

I think it's safe to say that noone enjoy the missions that fall into the "everything else" category as they are much less stimulating than the others.

That is a huge assumption dude, that's all I have to say. :|

[Cawkslapjones]

I find it's best to just focus on one thing at a time, and everything else kinda goes a long with it. Farming resources can still be great xp for weapons and frames, just start on the lower level planets that have them. Need Rubedo? Go to Earth. Venus for Alloy Plates. If you have one decently high level weapon that should still be fine almost no matter the level of the frame or your secondary weapons.

Although it's tempting to want to rush into things, and just do mod farming on Pluto while you level your Mag that you just pulled out of the Foundry yesterday, using the Akbolto you just picked up today, that's not realistic. Playing with friends helps with any issue you have in progression. The only problem I have with progression is how restrictive the game is when it comes to super charging weapons and frames. You are essentially always going to be level 15 with any weapon/frame unless you pay, or never leave your computer. The Alert system is in serious need of a revamp, and that's really the only progression bit that sucks.

[TheRealTuna]

That is a huge assumption dude, that's all I have to say. :|

According to the "What's your favorite mission type?" poll in the design council, it is clear that people vastly prefer defense/exterminate/assasination missions to others, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to use that poll as a small sample representing the body of players playing this game. It's not an assumption...although you are right in that I shouldn't have taken it upon me to speak for everyone. I should say that I PERSONALLY find missions that fall into the "everything else" category to be completely unworth playing as compared to missions of the other 3 types.

The point was that there is actually very little difference between the other categories of mission. Finding the artifact is exactly the same as destroying the reactor. Delivering the payload is very similar to collecting data units. The only missions that actually offer something different are the abovementioned 3.

Edited February 8, 2013 by TheRealTuna

[CapricaSix]

According to the "What's your favorite mission type?" poll in the design council, it is clear that people vastly prefer defense/exterminate/assasination missions to others, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to use that poll as a small sample representing the body of players playing this game. It's not an assumption...although you are right in that I shouldn't have taken it upon me to speak for everyone. I should say that I PERSONALLY find missions that fall into the "everything else" category to be completely unworth playing as compared to missions of the other 3 types.

The point was that there is actually very little difference between the other categories of mission. Finding the artifact is exactly the same as destroying the reactor. Delivering the payload is very similar to collecting data units. The only missions that actually offer something different are the abovementioned 3.

We need lots more variety and game modes indeed, I just wouldn't go as far as calling "the rest" unenjoyable. I think the point of the poll was to determine which is the most liked rather than which is the most hated, seemed that way to me at least, but I suppose that's subjective eh?

They're all the same in the core. Defense mission is basically a single room with organised enemy waves rushing in every now and then where you normally see in a regular mission with no cryostasis pod yet full of enemies {even a boss}. Exterminate is like a mini mission compared to the regular missions™ again with the only difference being having a straight forward goal {kill all} and a very limited amount of enemies compared to the rest. Then there's the assassination, just another mission with the exception of having a hardcore boss somewhere on the map.

{Edited, oh god my grammar. RIP}

Edited February 8, 2013 by CapricaSix

[Mak_Gohae]

According to the "What's your favorite mission type?" poll in the design council, it is clear that people vastly prefer defense/exterminate/assasination missions to others, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to use that poll as a small sample representing the body of players playing this game. It's not an assumption...although you are right in that I shouldn't have taken it upon me to speak for everyone. I should say that I PERSONALLY find missions that fall into the "everything else" category to be completely unworth playing as compared to missions of the other 3 types.

The point was that there is actually very little difference between the other categories of mission. Finding the artifact is exactly the same as destroying the reactor. Delivering the payload is very similar to collecting data units. The only missions that actually offer something different are the abovementioned 3.

What are the difference between those 3?

There isnt one.... those 3 are just shoot everything.

Except the fact that in defense you stay in one spot.

So it's really.

1.KIlling

Kill Boss, kill everything, wait here and kill everything.

2. Messenger

Datamass delivery, and taking

3. Acquiring

Reactor, Capture, Artifact.

4. Escort

Prisoner

I really hope they actually add different types of missions and not just focus on just killing.

[TheRealTuna]

Well yeah...I mean if you boil it down enough, you can say that all games are just pressing buttons and looking at a computer screen. Yes, a large part of Warframe seems to be killing enemies...as expected. But, there are subsets of said killing, and defense, assasination, and exterminate are the ones that are the most unique of all of the mission types. That notion is supported by the results of the abovementioned poll, which clearly indicates that those 3 mission types are what players enjoy most.

Really, it seems like the majority of players that play Warframe play because they want to kill stuff. As you say, that's what defense, extermination, and assasination missions have in common -- unrestricted killing of mobs. No annoying datamass to deal with, no reactor to bother with. In those 3 mission types, you have one objective, and that objective is killing stuff. It is honesly not surprising that, in a game that is advertised as a third person shooter, fun comes from killing stuff.

With that said, there are still a lot of fun things DE can do with missions that combine killing enemies with other elements that aren't just bothersome, although the primary purpose of the game will ALWAYS be about killing stuff...that's just what the game is. With that said, new tilesets can be released that require wall running and backflipping. Maybe the rescue missions can be revamped; a grineer commander has him arm and a gun pointed at the hostage, and you have a second to aim properly and shoot the commander, freeing the hostage. You would then have to escort the hostage -- who will have been changed so that it doesn't take godzilla to take him out -- to safety while Grineer prioritize the hostage as the target. Etc, etc, etc.

[Mak_Gohae]

Well yeah...I mean if you boil it down enough, you can say that all games are just pressing buttons and looking at a computer screen. Yes, a large part of Warframe seems to be killing enemies...as expected. But, there are subsets of said killing, and defense, assasination, and exterminate are the ones that are the most unique of all of the mission types. That notion is supported by the results of the abovementioned poll, which clearly indicates that those 3 mission types are what players enjoy most.

Hey, you were boiling down over there too so i dont see how this other boiling down cannot be done.

And you explained that the poll was about what mission people would rather see and that in no way discusses the uniqueness of the mission. That just means people like to kill stuff.

Really, it seems like the majority of players that play Warframe play because they want to kill stuff. As you say, that's what defense, extermination, and assasination missions have in common -- unrestricted killing of mobs. No annoying datamass to deal with, no reactor to bother with. In those 3 mission types, you have one objective, and that objective is killing stuff. It is honesly not surprising that, in a game that is advertised as a third person shooter, fun comes from killing stuff.

With that said, there are still a lot of fun things DE can do with missions that combine killing enemies with other elements that aren't just bothersome, although the primary purpose of the game will ALWAYS be about killing stuff...that's just what the game is. With that said, new tilesets can be released that require wall running and backflipping. Maybe the rescue missions can be revamped; a grineer commander has him arm and a gun pointed at the hostage, and you have a second to aim properly and shoot the commander, freeing the hostage. You would then have to escort the hostage -- who will have been changed so that it doesn't take godzilla to take him out -- to safety while Grineer prioritize the hostage as the target. Etc, etc, etc.

The primary purpose is completing the mission which is why you can complete missions without killing at all. Some one just finished a mission without being detected which shows that the game has different styles so focusing on just one isnt going to help in the long run.

[djjdiss]

I suppose this is the problem with Warframe's item-based level vs. character-based level. We've even got player level on top of that, which is a big push for us now. Some people like picking their own goals from a large array of options. Others feel like it is too-much, too-soon.

One possible improvement we have in the queue is to call out some specific advancement objective so that if you're feeling overwhelmed it can give you a focus to pursue.

That said, we are trying our best to make Warframe feel different so the advancement systems are unfamiliar, which is for better or worse: 'by design'.

Hey steve not sure if anyone over there checked out my progression thread, but I am trying to gather some of the more unique ideas that have been stated on the forums and bring them into one place. I'd love for you guys over there to take a look and see if any of those ideas catch your eye or spark the immagination into what could be a goal driven succinct method for advancing yourself in various ways. I'm always trying to add to it so it can grow into a rather nice collection of ideas to pull inspiration from or even use outright.

Check it out here

Thanks

[aTaVaX]

Well if that's how you feel, then the issue you're having isn't one of progression or having too many objectives, it's one of feeling that the gameplay and missions are repetitive...which is understandable. Despite the "variety" of missions -- sabotage, deception, rescue, etc -- they all feel more or less the same. The missions that require you to destroy a reactor or acquire an ancient artifact involve doing the same exact thing. Rescue doesn't feel challenging at all as your hostage seems basically immortal.

Essentially, I would argue that there are really 4 mission types:

- Extermination

- Defense

- Assassination

- Everything else

I think it's safe to say that noone enjoy the missions that fall into the "everything else" category as they are much less stimulating than the others. But the other 3 -- Extermination, Defense, and Assassination -- seem decent. I think the other mission types would benefit from another look, though.

Anyway, players who continue to play this game presumably enjoy the game, and any game will have certain degrees of repetitiveness involved. If you aren't having fun with the game, why are you playing @_@?

aren't there low level missions of every type and high level missions of every type and every type of mission on every level? So no, even if every type of mission was completely unique, there would still be no difference between playing a high level mission for mods or playing the exact same type of mission but a lower level for either resources or even further lower level to level a weapon or frame. Only missions that are actually unique would be the boss fights even then 95% of the encounter is the exact same, its only different during the actual boss fight.

Edited February 8, 2013 by aTaVaX

[WildJuice]

This sort of progression just makes me want to freeload some maps and just follow higher leveled gear people...this system encourages people to leech off others to be the most productive, and it's bad.

Also, you can never really feel strong, because you constantly want to level your rank...There's absolutely no point in using a level 30 weapon except killing things faster, but you can use your abilities in defense missions and get the same amount of mods/exp...

Edited February 9, 2013 by WildJuice

[Furyion]

i like this system thats implemented for war frame.although i wish there was more maps and wish the levels are a diffeent colour with harder modes at least. or another boss or multi bosses after each sector possibly a larger group based mini raid after each sector.

[Gyarados]

I personally find the overall system well done. The fact that each item has a rank, your warframe has a rank, your account has a rank, and you can expand on most ranks that you end up getting in the game.

However, since this is CBT, it's hard to tell how the progression is really going to effect the end product. Right now progression sucks, but that's a lot to do with a lack of content because of the state of the game, and that's understandable. However, the economy is a little bit rough at the current moment because of the Foundry in my opinion. Taking 12 hours to craft your first possible item? That's a little much. 3 DAYS to craft a warframe after you probably have to spend equal amounts of time simply finding the necessary parts for it AND paying more money than what you'd expect? There needs to be some balancing done so that progression in all areas feels solid.

Weapon progression feels right at the moment, the only thing that annoys me is "Clip" when everything is clearly using a magazine, but that's a nitpick and I'm going to call it a magazine regardless. Getting new frames is where I think the most fine tuning needs to be done, along with a minor overhaul of the prices of items in game, since a large portion of the ones already in cost just above $10, it's not a good sign for the rest of the items that will eventually come into play.

[11.11.11]

Weapon progression feels right at the moment, the only thing that annoys me is "Clip" when everything is clearly using a magazine

Weapon progression feels right at the moment, the only thing that annoys me is "Clip" when everything is clearly using a magazine, but that's a nitpick and I'm going to call it a magazine regardless.

So I'm not the only one then?

I think the progression at the momment, for a CBT is good. Varied, and good. I'm a little worried about the effect the Orokin reactors are having on frame's skill progressions. But the rest seems good.

However, "clip" being used here does bug me. Especially for things like the Gorgon. I know this is a entirley fictional universe, so it's a bit of a petty issue. But couldn't they be called something entirley different to keep both the realists and origional-universe fans happy?

Like I dunno - cells? packs? Reservoirs? - or maybe something more Tenno-ish? Like, 'Zasshi' which I'm pretty sure is japanese for magazine.

[Gyarados]

Or simply "mag". Pacify both those who refuse to say magazine and those who refuse to accept clip.

[11.11.11]

But couldn't they be called something entirley different to keep both the realists and origional-universe fans happy?

Or simply "mag". Pacify both those who refuse to say magazine and those who refuse to accept clip.