Phobos And Health Gating.

[Eirshy]

Firstly, on Phobos...

 

I'm curious as to why you guys decided to put both bosses that have annoying invulnerability mechanics a duo boss?

 

Like...

 

Okay, Kril's frozen, Vor's in his bubble, and I already killed all of Vor's minions. Welp.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em?

 

 

To be fair, Kril's is only annoying because someone dun goofed it and you can't damage him while he's frozen any more, so you literally have to take him to fire mode (assuming his cryo pack doesn't decide to duck under his invulnerability cloak and turn him completely immortal, of course).

 

That and uh... whoever thought making Vor health-gated was a good idea needs to be knocked upside the head. It might just be the annoyance from having both Vor AND a glitchy Kril in the same fight at the same time, but....

 

Okay yeah, no, it probably is almost *entirely* glitchy Kril making everything Vor does even more annoying.

 

 

 

Secondly, on Health Gating...

 

Kril was a good idea when he worked properly. You have to destroy one part in order to damage the body. If you're strong enough to do so after you break that part, you may kill the boss in one shot. This makes it interesting, as that sniper who has been honing thier massive one-shot damage to be so incredibly high they can one-shot the world (as they should be) has to take a few trick shots in order to use their massive damage.

 

Vor was a bad idea. You hit him hard enough, he stops taking damage mid-shot, goes into a bubble of invulnerability then pops out. And he does this multiple times. This is directly spitting in that Banshee with the maxed Lanka's face- why be that Banshee with a maxed Lanka, when the Ash with the half-modded Vulkar can do the exact same thing with less than half the prepatory work?

 

 

Now, I can suffer through Vor's health gating so long as Kril behaves how he's supposed to. But having Kril turn into a bizarre failed Mario/Zelda boss applicant (you have to hit him 4 times to beat him!) just really puts me on edge regarding this.

[Aure7]

Most of the boss fights was just spraying bullets fast enough and long enough into the confused boss until it dies. And that happens way too fast most of the time, that's why they're trying to prevent quick and unusual boss fights.

[MeteorKing]

Yes, DE, why don't you just let me 1 shot ALL your bosses and then complain that your bosses are too simple?

WHY MUST YOU DO THIS?!

Edited August 14, 2013 by MeteorKing

[SilentCynic]

I can't talk much about Kril (I haven't fought him enough to provide a proper opinion), but regarding Vor; perhaps you should give his forcefield bubble an HP bar of its own? While inside it, his shields recharge until they're maxed, like now, but if you can deal some arbitrary (and suitably ludicrous) amount of damage, you can blast your way through the forcefield, cut his regeneration short, and force the fight to continue.

Edited August 14, 2013 by SilentCynic

[Troublechutor]

Yes, DE, why don't you just let me 1 shot ALL your bosses and then complain that your bosses are too simple?

WHY MUST YOU DO THIS?!

I think people might be missing the point here... by the time you've farmed up weapons and skills to be able to one-shot bosses, they are already simple -  to you - because you've probably killed them 100's of times by then.

 

The challenge is to be able to one-shot a boss, and it doesn't happen until you've gotten to a pretty mature state of the game.

 

The complaint isn't so much about how simple bosses (or anything really) are to defeat, it's really a sideways complaint about not having suffiecient things to do with godly-farmed frames and weapons.  Still, people want to have ways to see their hard "work" in action... and one-shotting the highest health and unique enemies in the game is just one of those things people want to do.

[Verazix]

Yes, DE, why don't you just let me 1 shot ALL your bosses and then complain that your bosses are too simple?

WHY MUST YOU DO THIS?!

Guy A posts about how he hates health gating and a buggy boss fight.

Guy B posts strawman acting like he knows Guy A's opinion on boss fights in general.

What's up with these forums and baseless interpretations?

Edited August 14, 2013 by Verazix

[DiabolusUrsus]

The Kril-Vor duo actually made for a pretty interesting fight, in my opinion. Much better than yet another placeholder bullet-sponge boss with ridiculously powerful attacks. can't argue that bugginess with invulnerability mechanics can be rather frustrating, but I don't think that it is a good idea to allow players to get to the point where they can one-shot boss characters.

[TemetNosce]

Yeah, it's Kril which is the real problem. I will agree that Vor's invuln phase is boring, but it's nothing on Kril at present. At this point in time, the biggest threat in this fight is your own boredom as you wait to be permitted to shoot Kril. Seriously, it's a horrible mechanic. Worse, whether he uses those abilities seems almost totally unrelated to your actions. You try to stand in front of him and he'll just use his other @(*()$ hammer ability.

[Eirshy]

Most of the boss fights was just spraying bullets fast enough and long enough into the confused boss until it dies. And that happens way too fast most of the time, that's why they're trying to prevent quick and unusual boss fights.

 

Well yeah, but health gatings is a punishing way to accomplish that. And this specific combo is more of a snooze than actually entertaining or difficult. I finally had a run with people who understood how to *not* glitch Kril (though we somehow made him nearly immune to Lankas, really no clue how we accomplished that), and it really happened exactly as I was joking, where we had at least twice where we had nothing to shoot at because it was all invulnerable.

 

 

Yes, DE, why don't you just let me 1 shot ALL your bosses and then complain that your bosses are too simple?

WHY MUST YOU DO THIS?!

 

 

In all seriousne- oh who am I kidding.

This thread sailed right over your head, and it's obvious :/

 

 

I can't talk much about Kril (I haven't fought him enough to provide a proper opinion), but regarding Vor; perhaps you should give his forcefield bubble an HP bar of its own? While inside it, his shields recharge until they're maxed, like now, but if you can deal some arbitrary (and suitably ludicrous) amount of damage, you can blast your way through the forcefield, cut his regeneration short, and force the fight to continue.

 

That would be an interesting idea, even if it was a nearly-unreachable amount of damage, it'd give us sniper types something to strive to be able to do even if it was more for bragging rights than anything.

 

 

I think people might be missing the point here... by the time you've farmed up weapons and skills to be able to one-shot bosses, they are already simple -  to you - because you've probably killed them 100's of times by then.

 

The challenge is to be able to one-shot a boss, and it doesn't happen until you've gotten to a pretty mature state of the game.

 

The complaint isn't so much about how simple bosses (or anything really) are to defeat, it's really a sideways complaint about not having suffiecient things to do with godly-farmed frames and weapons.  Still, people want to have ways to see their hard "work" in action... and one-shotting the highest health and unique enemies in the game is just one of those things people want to do.

 

Quite a bit of this, really. Good show ^_^

 

 

The Kril-Vor duo actually made for a pretty interesting fight, in my opinion. Much better than yet another placeholder bullet-sponge boss with ridiculously powerful attacks. can't argue that bugginess with invulnerability mechanics can be rather frustrating, but I don't think that it is a good idea to allow players to get to the point where they can one-shot boss characters.

 

Agreed regarding placeholder bullet sponges, but disagreed that these basically *aren't* placeholder bullet sponges. The only difference is you gotta wait for them to wring themselves out before you can return to filling them with rounds. Or in my case, round.

 

 

Yeah, it's Kril which is the real problem. I will agree that Vor's invuln phase is boring, but it's nothing on Kril at present. At this point in time, the biggest threat in this fight is your own boredom as you wait to be permitted to shoot Kril. Seriously, it's a horrible mechanic. Worse, whether he uses those abilities seems almost totally unrelated to your actions. You try to stand in front of him and he'll just use his other @(*()$ hammer ability.

 

It's a little annoying when he does that, but at least Back In My Day you could kill him after he finally does it the first time. It was an interesting idea that could go places without stepping on any toes- like health gating does *glares in the direction of a faceless DE employee*.

Edited August 14, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[TemetNosce]

It's a little annoying when he does that, but at least Back In My Day you could kill him after he finally does it the first time. It was an interesting idea that could go places without stepping on any toes- like health gating does *glares in the direction of a faceless DE employee*.

 

Fix the gating and I'd only have to wait around a short amount of time. Would be mostly happy. Fix the AI in regards to ability triggering from player actions and I'd only have to wait around a short amount of time. Would be mostly happy. Fix both, and I'll be significantly happier. Fix both and make him actually a threat and I'd be @(*()$ ecstatic.

 

Ultimately, I think this applies on a broad scale across DE's implementation of bosses, and game mechanics as a whole - they need to respond more directly to the player rather than being effectively a simple damage or time tax. Failure to react to a given mechanic on the part of a player should have a large chance of being downed at least, and similarly player actions which correctly identify and react to a threat should be reward in an amount which matches the players investment. Sadly, it feels like DE is moving in the opposite direction from this.

[Fundance]

I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that higher lv players can level with lower lv players.

It's no fun for the newbie if they don't even get to shoot the boss, so they're making the bosses go down in stages so that everyone feels like they've at least put some rounds into him.

Nothing is more annoying than players running ahead of everyone else, killing a boss before the rest of the party gets there, and then zooming off without even marking where the loot dropped. The waypoint changes and it suddenly becomes rather hard to find where the boss died.

[Eirshy]

I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that higher lv players can level with lower lv players. It's no fun for the newbie if they don't even get to shoot the boss, so they're making the bosses go down in stages so that everyone feels like they've at least put some rounds into him. Nothing is more annoying than players running ahead of everyone else, killing a boss before the rest of the party gets there, and then zooming off without even marking where the loot dropped. The waypoint changes and it suddenly becomes rather hard to find where the boss died.

 

It's also no fun for the old, experienced player when that new player is the one who's glitching Kril. Seriously, that one run I did (actually a duo with Vera up there) was incredibly smooth. Seriously, the glitch only happens if you waste ammo at him while he's invulnerable. Why people feel obligated to empty clips into him after being told it does nothing until he's frozen (before they dun goofed him) or on fire (now that he's been dun goofed), I'll never understand.

 

 

And it also sucks when you try to claim that old players are the only ones that do that- and that the majority of them do that. I'm not that guy (I actually know how to put the game on "solo"), and when I'm in a party I'll intentionally wait (or at the very least, camp the drops with waypoints) until everyone has gotten them- because I don't want people to blow my drops off like that either. And I know a *lot* of people who *aren't* That Guy.

 

 

 

And stupid gating isn't how you solve that, it's how you create elitism. If you wanna kill the game by blaming bad design on newbies, go right ahead.

When making it hit-based will slow everyone down equally, without actually punishing the player who *is* at endgame. There's a reason I said Kril was a good idea, Vor was not. There are ways to fix this without making the game actively $&*^ the player who's been around for a long while.

 

Hell, another way? Make the matcher on the early planets prefer people of the same mastery rank- and refuse to auto-match people with too much mastery disparity. Can't find a group? Maybe go to the recruiting channel and ask for one! Or maybe invite your friends from real life (or other games) to play with you! Or, Or, Or. There's a lot of ways to make this less painful than simply making all the old players stand around while Johnny tries not to shoot his eye out. Or worse, runs in front of the Ogris.

 

 

Oh and the current drop system from bosses needs a rework in general- as Raptor demonstrated. My favorite solution was to make it work like a Raid/Capture/Spy/Etc- all of the boss's "drops" get given to you at the end of the run, rather than having to be scavenged after dropping out of the boss.

Edited August 14, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Mainutz]

So DE, why isn't Kril fixed already?

[Aggh]

Imo Vor's shield bubble should go away after you've killed the mobs that he summons and the level/type of the mobs summoned should be based on the amount of damage you dealt to him before the shield goes up.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Aggh

[Eirshy]

Imo Vor's shield bubble should go away after you've killed the mobs that he summons and the level/type of the mobs summoned should be based on the amount of damage you dealt to him before the shield goes up.

 

So, if you shoot him with a properly built Lanka in a sonar splotch, you summon....

25 lv9001 rollers?

 

Or do you mean weaker mobs the more you overkill?

 

Either way you're punishing either the high level or the low level, both of which are bad ideas.

 

 

Though I do like the idea of making the bubble pop if you kill the summons. Wonder if that's even possible without quite a few changes to the engine. Still a decent/good idea (in spite of the questionable implementation ability). Would fix the chopping up of the fight, and would kinda go with the idea of multiple targets rather than health gating.... while still playing into health gating...

 

Eh, at least it would let me take down his stupid invulns faster, rather than starting up a game of poker with my party after every shot I take.

Edited August 14, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Aggh]

So, if you shoot him with a properly built Lanka in a sonar splotch, you summon....

25 lv9001 rollers?

 

Or do you mean weaker mobs the more you overkill?

 

Either way you're punishing either the high level or the low level, both of which are bad ideas.

 

 

Though I do like the idea of making the bubble pop if you kill the summons. Wonder if that's even possible without quite a few changes to the engine. Still a decent/good idea (in spite of the questionable implementation ability).

It's not punishing, it's scaling the fight to the actual capabilities of the player..  Instead of standing around waiting for his shields to recharge, you get to spend time killing something.  There'd obviously be a cap based on the level of the mission, but it wouldn't unreasonable to summon a handful of lvl 90 lancers if someone is dealing that kind of damage.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Aggh

[Eirshy]

It's not punishing, it's scaling.  Instead of standing around waiting for his shields to recharge, you get to spend time killing something.  There'd obviously be a cap based on the level of the mission, but it wouldn't unreasonable to summon a handful of lvl 90 lancers if someone is dealing that kind of damage.

 

No, it's punishing. Suddenly I can't bring my Lanka into a non-high-level party because if I do, everyone else will get overwhelmed (well, theoretically. I'd likely be able to throw everyone on my back fast enough, but the fact remains). Or, I simply switch to something with high dps but low per-bullet damage (like Vipers or even the joke that is the Grakata), and use those instead.

 

All this would do is give the person who worked their &#! off to actually bring to bear the maximum firepower of the mastery 7 clantech sniper rifle the finger for having the gall to want to use the damn thing. Sure, while I could easily oneshot those grineer as well... that's the thing. There's no difference between a level 1 and a level 100 medium Grineer to my Lanka. Both go squish in one shot even when I roll a 1 (no crit no double) without sonar, and I'm fairly sure without even making it a headshot (though it's not like it's hard to headshot to guarantee that fact). Or I could use the Snidal, lower the overkill, and be in the same situation- only now I'm using a lower-powered (sorta) sniper rifle that is by far easier to use (no charge, hitscan). I can still oneshot the stupid health gate in my sleep, only I lowered the overkill by a huge amount.

 

And what if someone brings an Acrid (also clantech and m7), the best non-Sonar DPS in the game? A tick from the DoT breaks the gate. "overkill" is insanely small. Mobs that spawn are pathetic. Woooo.

 

 

 

 

What makes it unreasonable is both how pointless, and how *targetted* the effect would be. Only snipers would cause it, and only snipers wouldn't care.

Edited August 14, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Aggh]

No, it's punishing. Suddenly I can't bring my Lanka into a non-high-level party because if I do, everyone else will get overwhelmed (well, theoretically. I'd likely be able to throw everyone on my back fast enough, but the fact remains). Or, I simply switch to something with high dps but low per-bullet damage (like Vipers or even the joke that is the Grakata), and use those instead.

 

All this would do is give the person who worked their &#! off to actually bring to bear the maximum firepower of the mastery 7 clantech sniper rifle the finger for having the gall to want to use the damn thing. Sure, while I could easily oneshot those grineer as well... that's the thing. There's no difference between a level 1 and a level 100 medium Grineer to my Lanka. Both go squish in one shot even when I roll a 1 (no crit no double) without sonar, and I'm fairly sure without even making it a headshot (though it's not like it's hard to headshot to guarantee that fact). Or I could use the Snidal, lower the overkill, and be in the same situation- only now I'm using a lower-powered (sorta) sniper rifle that is by far easier to use (no charge, hitscan). I can still oneshot the stupid health gate in my sleep, only I lowered the overkill by a huge amount.

 

And what if someone brings an Acrid (also clantech and m7), the best non-Sonar DPS in the game? A tick from the DoT breaks the gate. "overkill" is insanely small. Mobs that spawn are pathetic. Woooo.

 

 

 

 

What makes it unreasonable is both how pointless, and how *targetted* the effect would be. Only snipers would cause it, and only snipers wouldn't care.

It justifies allowing you to take down the bubble by simply killing the mobs.  If they're too low level your sentinel will take them out before you even have a chance to shoot them, and if you can kill them quickly enough, it allows you to kill the boss faster.  And it's a level 45-47 mission.  By the time you're playing those kinds of missions you can just as easily deal with higher level mobs as you can with lower level mobs.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Aggh

[Eirshy]

It justifies allowing you to take down the bubble by simply killing the mobs.  If they're too low level your sentinel will take them out before you even have a chance to shoot them, and if you can kill them quickly enough, it allows you to kill the boss faster.  And it's a level 45-47 mission.  By the time you're playing those kinds of missions you can just as easily deal with higher level mobs as you can with lower level mobs.

 

What?

You're trying to inconvenience sniper weapons, and you're failing.

 

A DPS weapon on the other hand gains insanely from this, as it'll likely oneshot whatever weak spawn show up (due to its lower overkill), and with its massively lower target cycle time than a sniper weapon, you allowed the DPS weapon to bypass the invulnerability much, MUCH faster.

 

 

 

 

Are people really this offended when I talk about oneshotting a boss?

 

Ya'll do understand that most of the DPS weapons in this game, if built right, can do the same, just in one clip (or less), right?

 

First time I think I've ever seen "Nerf Lanka" over "Nerf Acrid" lol

Edited August 14, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[KitMan1973]

Firstly, on Phobos...

 

I'm curious as to why you guys decided to put both bosses that have annoying invulnerability mechanics a duo boss?

I would imagine it is down to Kril and Vor being the only Grineer bosses that have been 'finished' as all other bosses are place holders. 

My only hope is that this fight is a place holder for an actual unique new boss who'll be made later.

[Davoodoo]

Yes, DE, why don't you just let me 1 shot ALL your bosses and then complain that your bosses are too simple?

WHY MUST YOU DO THIS?!

The problem is that they arent hard anyway, 3 mags with my braton (150 bullets) is enough to kill them both and all adds, problem is that it takes forever to kill them, while on 1st few runs it isnt problem, rng doesnt really help with farming blade and it takes more than 100 runs usually to get miter.

Im not against making boss fights longer but at same time it should be less grindy.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Davoodoo

[Ventose]

the Phobos boss fight is bugged as hell but even if it worked as intended it still would suck; partly becouse of droprates and rng, partly couse NPC AI is poorly done in this game so bosses are distinguished with a S#&$load of HP and DPS, a uniqe skin and some boring scripted fight. I'm looking forward to the day when developers will come up with a game in which NPCs and especially bosses pose a threat and present a real chalenge to the player not becouse they have a gazillion HP and shields but couse they use actuall tactics. also one-hiting a boss shouldn't be considered OP or blasphemous. with proper gear you should be able to do that; why break a sweat when you honed your skills, collected the best damn weapons available. imagine if having better weapons and gear wouldn't make a difference when in a boss fight: why the hell bother collecting them?

[Eirshy]

I would imagine it is down to Kril and Vor being the only Grineer bosses that have been 'finished' as all other bosses are place holders. 

My only hope is that this fight is a place holder for an actual unique new boss who'll be made later.

 

... This is actually a very good idea as to why, and I'm ashamed for not thinking of that myself O_o

 

 

The problem is that they arent hard anyway, 3 mags with my braton (150 bullets) is enough to kill them both and all adds, problem is that it takes forever to kill them, while on 1st few runs it isnt problem, rng doesnt really help with farming blade and it takes more than 100 runs usually to get miter.

Im not against making boss fights longer but at same time it should be less grindy.

 

I got my Miter Blade on that last run (the one with Vera).... Still no Gremlin print, which is the entire reason I was running them :(

 

 

the Phobos boss fight is bugged as hell but even if it worked as intended it still would suck; partly becouse of droprates and rng, partly couse NPC AI is poorly done in this game so bosses are distinguished with a S#&$load of HP and DPS, a uniqe skin and some boring scripted fight. I'm looking forward to the day when developers will come up with a game in which NPCs and especially bosses pose a threat and present a real chalenge to the player not becouse they have a gazillion HP and shields but couse they use actuall tactics. also one-hiting a boss shouldn't be considered OP or blasphemous. with proper gear you should be able to do that; why break a sweat when you honed your skills, collected the best damn weapons available. imagine if having better weapons and gear wouldn't make a difference when in a boss fight: why the hell bother collecting them?

 

AI is always the problem with giving a boss "actual tactics". It's really hard to make an AI intelligent enough to do things like that.

[Aggh]

What?

You're trying to inconvenience sniper weapons, and you're failing.

 

A DPS weapon on the other hand gains insanely from this, as it'll likely oneshot whatever weak spawn show up (due to its lower overkill), and with its massively lower target cycle time than a sniper weapon, you allowed the DPS weapon to bypass the invulnerability much, MUCH faster.

 

 

 

 

Are people really this offended when I talk about oneshotting a boss?

 

Ya'll do understand that most of the DPS weapons in this game, if built right, can do the same, just in one clip (or less), right?

 

First time I think I've ever seen "Nerf Lanka" over "Nerf Acrid" lol

Since it's based on the damage done before the bubble goes up, no it wouldn't.  Unless you want to waste the time letting him put the bubble up over and over again.  Snipers would be at an advantage since they'd be able to deal more damage per time he puts up the bubble and be able to deal with the mobs he puts out faster.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Aggh

[fatpig84]

I would imagine it is down to Kril and Vor being the only Grineer bosses that have been 'finished' as all other bosses are place holders. 

My only hope is that this fight is a place holder for an actual unique new boss who'll be made later.

 

That will suck really hard. 

The only thing that made Miter and Gremlin bp farming bearable was the chance of 2 Bp / component drops.