Hexagonal Mod Tiles - A Jumping-Off Point On The Road To Unique Builds

[Lumireaver]

Any suggestions on how?

 

I've sketched up a handful of not-necessarily-inclusive ideas.

 

Part of the reason I haven't really elaborated a whole lot on them is because I feel that the idea I'm presenting to DE should be conservative enough so that they're totally free to shape it to their liking. The hex-tiles, unique weapon shapes, and the possibilities for relationships between adjacent tiles, I feel, are the heart of the idea.

 

As far as the relationships themselves... If we're keeping mods exactly as they are right now, I feel that a combination of random and deliberate relationships should be designed in. So Focus might coincidentally work well with Thunderclap, providing a ~1% boost to both. (Boost increments could be assigned per mod.) These random relationships could be decided via hidden values associated with each mod. (Each type of mod. However, perhaps each individual mod could have hidden synergy value giving the player a reason to hunt for the perfect multishot mod for their build.) In addition to the random ones, certain mods could be designed to have special effects when slotted next to each other. (Hypothetical: Retribution + Staggering Force = Enemies electrocuted on block.)

 

Certain mods could have a bit of power cut off the top to compensate for the raised power ceilings brought on by these changes. (Finding the ideal amount would take quite a bit of theorycrafting.)

 

Alternatively, if we're willing to change how mods work just a little, things can be more flexible.

 

Let me start by saying I really don't like the idea of using polarity as a significant factor in determining relationships with this idea. Polarity already has a huge role with how it affects mod cost. Not only that, but there are effectively only three polarities to divide between the weapon mods. (The other two polarities are reserved for abilities and precepts.) I once heard Steve say that polarities kind of represent characters in Tenno-script. We've currently got "Attack," "Defense," and "Tactic," but what if we divided and redefined those a bit. What if a mod could drop as one of a number of polarities? So Hell's Chamber could drop as a "V," or an "X, Y, or Z." In that case, I wouldn't mind if polarity had a part in the system. (Because Point Blank might only share one polarity with Hell's Chamber, meaning serious thought would need to be put into finding out which build would work best and unique weapon shapes mean the best build for one shotgun might not be physically possible on another. Also transmutation could become the "goto" method for getting another copy of the same mod with a different polarity.)

 

(Everyone's current copies would remain the same. Naturally.)

 

Re-skinning/remodelling the above idea while leaving polarities alone, we could also just add "suffixes" to mods.

(IE: Serration α, Serration β, Serration γ, etc...) 

 

I could argue that the idea itself is in fact genius in itself, even if it isn't fully fleshed out.

But yes, this idea isn't anything more than what we have right now but if we keep this topic alive and keep thinking we can make it so much more.

This thread is our think tank, so let's get thinking!

 

Thanks. :-)

[Aizeol]

One thing I can only imagine is the power creep coming off of that.

 

Now everyone stacks the same polarity streamline has, and now everything is next to spammable...

 

Or, in Loki, Vauban's, Trinity's, etc's case, people stack Continuity polarized mods next to Continuity.

 

Some balance would need to come out of that... that was worse then Pre U7 way of working..

Again, the first part of the suggestion is that all current mods stay the same way they are now. This eliminates a lot of potential power creep.

On top of that, not many players would run into a high level area with a spammable skill that does little to no damage and with stock health. Sure, it might be fun, but it isn't practical. A valid concern all the same though.

With the system not being implemented until the next set of mods, the designers have time to snuff out potential abuses this system might grant.

[gavdl13]

that looks like a really nice idea... hope that they implement it. +1

[litlit]

I'm on the bandwagon for this idea, I think it's great and has a lot of potential.

 

Hopefully the devs implement it or something like it, along with gameplay changes that make the game about more than pressing 4 (or 3 if you're Frost, Nyx, Volt, or Vauban).

[Unknown924]

Very nice idea.

What about having mods that only provide a boost to mods in connected tiles?

The boost mods could get weaker based on how many mods they are boosting(or stronger in some interesting cases).

EX

Weaker - Elemental Booster - Increases the damage of connected elemental damage mods by 50% / number of connected elemental damage mods.

Stronger - Resistance Amplifier - Multiplies the strength of connected elemental resistance mods by the number of elemental resistance mods connected to it(IE 3 resistance mods connected = 3x strength for all of them).

There could also be strong mods that get weaker for each mod next to them. Such as -1 effective mod level and they only provide half bonus effects for connected mods. This would make players think about where they placed those mods.

There could also be skill boosting mods, such as adding elemental damage, that only apply to connected skill mods. This would let variety in how skill mods tiles are positioned could be interesting.

There is a LOT of potential in this idea.

[PettiTheYeti]

This looks.. Oh my lord..

 

Its..

 

Glorious..

[Lumireaver]

Very nice idea.

What about having mods that only provide a boost to mods in connected tiles?

 

I was so focused on seamlessly adapting what was already there that the possibility for entirely new mods designed to be used as hex tiles completely eluded me. ...That's when things would start to get really crazy. 

[whitejackale]

Interesting idea. 

[Hawner]

The idea itself is quite nice (and visually striking).  Unfortunately, the odds of it being completely unbalance-able are 99.9%.  Balance is already Warframe's weak point, and if the devs are unwilling (or unable) to balance mods when they don't have a million potential interactive effects, then there's no hope for this system.  

 

I think the trick here is for DE to start giving small bonuses to see how each warframe/weapon could work in this system. When they see it all fits nicelly, then they can do better.

Anyway, this system can work perfectly by giving by default small bonuses (if any, not all the mods must give any bonus if paired with another). Maybe the max number of bonuses one can have may be fixed (total or of a certain kind)... Yeah, this could work and advanced players get to really work hard discovering nice matches between mods.

[blackraver]

I love it, reminds me of final fantasy 12 character customization. Hope DE sees and considers

[Rottae]

The first good thing about this is that we can easily see what other players have fitted to their frame and only that is a great change that will let ppl become more focused in how they are building their team.

Later, when we build into it more, the position of mods might become more and more important, giving bonuses or as someone else said, booster mods and even more stuff that requires a sort of puzzling sense, where should i put this mod for max effect, but putting that there reduces the effect of this and that, is that worth it or not would be questions about it

[PettiTheYeti]

I think the key to this type of system would have to be matching up similar buffs and resistances. Heated Charge mod has to be touching the Molten Impact mod, and you get an extra 5% increase on both of the weapons, for example.

 

Fire rates match to regen rates

Reload speed match to swing speed or running speed

Elements match to its own element (AP to AP, fire to fire, ice to ice, etc)

Multishot to Multishot if the tiles touch

 

Warframe mods for resistances and increased HP/EP/Armor/Shield would need some thinking over though..

[Hawner]

I think the key to this type of system would have to be matching up similar buffs and resistances. Heated Charge mod has to be touching the Molten Impact mod, and you get an extra 5% increase on both of the weapons, for example.

 

Fire rates match to regen rates

Reload speed match to swing speed or running speed

Elements match to its own element (AP to AP, fire to fire, ice to ice, etc)

Multishot to Multishot if the tiles touch

 

Warframe mods for resistances and increased HP/EP/Armor/Shield would need some thinking over though..

 

Another good add to this thread! Indeed, there are similar mods in every weapon, so pairing them should increase their effect in some way. Good idea.

[Atlas_Smirked]

I like it.

[UnworthySeraph]

Screw the arrangement buffs, this just LOOKS amazing. All my +'s!

[Lumireaver]

Later, when we build into it more, the position of mods might become more and more important, giving bonuses or as someone else said, booster mods and even more stuff that requires a sort of puzzling sense, where should i put this mod for max effect, but putting that there reduces the effect of this and that, is that worth it or not would be questions about it

 

Volt, suggested having a three different kinds of polarity. If we adapting that idea to this system, different weapons could have slots which behave in different ways. It could provide another way to balance weapons uniquely.

[blackraver]

I think the key to this type of system would have to be matching up similar buffs and resistances. Heated Charge mod has to be touching the Molten Impact mod, and you get an extra 5% increase on both of the weapons, for example.

 

Fire rates match to regen rates

Reload speed match to swing speed or running speed

Elements match to its own element (AP to AP, fire to fire, ice to ice, etc)

Multishot to Multishot if the tiles touch

 

Warframe mods for resistances and increased HP/EP/Armor/Shield would need some thinking over though..

I was thinking adjacent mods that have the same polarity boost each other as well as elementals if the same type. Debuffs would come from putting attack oriented polarities next to defensive one and different elements next to each other.

This would really mark out offensive oriented frames from defense and tactical frames. Frames like excali could be modded to do any of these since he is versatile and Ash would be a monster dps beast

[notionphil]

Maybe I'm just being a Luddite but can someone explain to me how this is functionally (not aesthetically) an improvement over the polarity system?

I never found an issue with making slight tweaks to my build, there are plenty of baked in ways to do that, simply use a lv9 heated charge and drop the trick mag to 3 instead of 4 for example. This seems like a tremendous overhaul if the goal is just to allow a different type of small min max tweaks.

If anything we need BIG tweaks in the mod department such as not every build relying on stacking fire rate, base dmg and multi shot, then squeezing in elementals. IMO this would just be another way that players would try and figure out how to get a few more % multi shot and base dmg.

Id much rather see a system that isn't giving MORE quantitative bonuses (+% to a mod near another specific mod ) bc we have enough and instead giving more qualitative or functional changes. Basically some aura like slot or something where you don't have to simply forgoe damage if you want your gun to do something interesting (knockback/zoom/do 2x crit from behind/etc) Bc most players do and will choose damage instead.

[notionphil]

One suggestion to help the designers, don't have any current mods interact with eachother. Let that be left to Mods Season 2. This would allow the design to be implemented quickly without having to re-write the behavior of all the current mods.

A second suggestion to flesh the idea out more: have mods that interact begin by having attributes that become more powerful or less powerful based on the polarity of the mods around them, not individual mods themselves.

Example: Have a +Health mod become more powerful with every adjacent "Defensive" mod around it.

Example 2: Have a damage mod become less powerful for every mod adjacent, regardless of polarity.

In both cases, where it is slotted becomes as important, if not more important, as what other mods are also equipped.

 

Ok there it is.....This is exactly what I am talking about :)

 

"I don't have enough ways to min/max my warframe's energy/shields, or my weapons damage"

 

said no one, ever :P

 

No one will maximize health anyway, they will all build for shields and energy/energy regen. And on weapon they will build for base dmg and multishot.

 

There are very few ways to, for example, make your frame do something different than have more health, shields or effective energy. And those few ways are competing directly with the health/shields/energy, so we don't use them.

 

Heavy Impact? Acrobat? Master Thief? Enemy Radar?

 

These qualitative mods can't compete with the quantitative mods above, so most people 'cant fit them' in their builds. First of all, we need more of them that are at least moderately useful. Secondly we need to have some system where qualitative mods don't compete for space with qualitative mods.

 

The aesthetic you're working on here looks cool. But try to think about the end goal. Hopefully it's not squeezing another X% of min/max because DE is already doing that with dual stat mods etc. We need true build diversity - frames that act and function differently based on build - not 10% more shields and fire rate.

 

Make this system as functional as it is cool-looking!

[Lumireaver]

Maybe I'm just being a Luddite but can someone explain to me how this is functionally (not aesthetically) an improvement over the polarity system?

 

It's not supposed to be an improvement over the polarity system. (Though it could easily be designed to incorporate polarities as a means of determining bonuses.) It's also worth noting that with a geometric puzzle-based mod system, the location of a polarized slots is much more important with respect to capitalizing on the best possible bonus. Which gives players more to think about.

 

For a while now, we've been experiencing a (somewhat) minor problem brought on by the introduction of Forma. The problem is that players can literally slash the amount of mod energy required by half on every slot of their weapon without putting a whole lot of thought into their build. It's a minor problem, but it's a part of the reason certain weapons will never be as effective a others. Moving forward, it's probably a good idea to give players some other factors to consider instead of just encouraging them to "equip the best mods on the highest base damage weapon with armor ignore."

 

I've tried to accomplish that by suggesting that each weapon have a differently shaped tile set. The adjacency bonuses exist to make certain combinations of bonuses impossible/less intrinsic on certain weapons. The system would also encourage experimentation until players could find a setup they believe is as effective as possible. 

 

I suggested the bonuses be small by design so that people could ignore the system if they're averse to change, but in reality DE could always slash base mod efficacy make the system more reliant on links. A main idea behind this suggestion is the introduction of a means by which weapons can have unique aspects again.

[notionphil]

It's not supposed to be an improvement over the polarity system. (Though it could easily be designed to incorporate polarities as a means of determining bonuses.) It's also worth noting that with a geometric puzzle-based mod system, the location of a polarized slots is much more important with respect to capitalizing on the best possible bonus. Which gives players more to think about.

 

"Best Possible Bonus"

 

That's my issue right there. We already have a system where we can put together the best possible bonus. It's just not complicated. That bonus being:

 

Frame: shield/energy/shield regen/energy eff

Weapon: base dmg/multishot/firerate/elementals

 

So this is just a more complicated way to min/max? "Build diversity" doesn't mean "I found a way to make my frame do % more dmg than yours". That is Min/Maxing.

 

Build diversity means my frame can do things differently than yours, and yet we are both effective.

 

I think your system looks great and has the potential for distinct interaction btw mods. But wasting awesomeness on even MORE min/maxing is dissappointing IMO :(

Edited August 27, 2013 by notionphil

[Lumireaver]

Min/maxing is going to exist in any system. Min/maxing is the practice of making the absolute most out of a system that you possibly can. (The opposite of min/maxing is self-handicapping.) The idea with this suggestion is to make min/maxing a thoughtful process instead of a universal list of eight to ten god-mods.

 

Build diversity will be mostly enforced by making the "ideal" min/maxed build different per weapon/loadout.

 

The system I'm suggesting should be easy to use, but take a reasonable amount of time and exploration to capitalize on all of the little complexities and relationships possible.

[notionphil]

I don't want to derail your thread as I can see there is a lot of thought behind it, so I will stop posting. But I strongly disagree that increasing complexity of min maxing across gear will lead to build diversity.

I think we need less min maxing and more options which don't directly boost combat stats (heavy impact, master thief etc) and don't compete for slots w min/max mods.

Not more ways to min max, which will simply be posted on wiki to copy.

But either way, nice idea.

[Aizeol]

-snip-

You are correct. We need mods that actually change behavior, not just bump stats. My point was that the mods that work with the system that is up there will have to be better than what we currently have. They need to interact with the mods around them. This will make the mods we currently have would be the basic or "beginner" mods. Since they don't interact, they provide a good introduction to the mod system without forcing new players to wrap their minds around how the interactions work.

This could also be used to change behaviors of weapons/frames. This would be a bit tricky, but maybe a mod that converts some shield energy into damage, or fire-rate (depending on what is slotted next to the mod. This would boost performance, but obviously it would take shield energy away every time you fire that weapon. If used correctly you are doing massive damage, or at least consistently higher damage, but leaving yourself open to receiving more punishment.

That is probably not the best example, but it's what came to mind. To reiterate, I agree wholeheartedly that we need mods that change behavior and gameplay more than simply increasing or decreasing numbers. My point is that if this redesign added interesting and strategic interactions it will be even more attractive. The devs might be able to stop min/maxing from getting out of hand and player would be able to experiment with what builds work the best depending on the loadout they are using.

Sorry that got a little incoherent towards the end, my brain is not a happy camper today.

[Lumireaver]

I don't want to derail your thread as I can see there is a lot of thought behind it, so I will stop posting.

 

Don't worry about it. Criticism often leads to improvement. Dissenting opinions and points of view are just as valid and important as supportive ones.

 

Also, like Aizeol just mentioned, while the current mods could always be made to interact with this system, the real interesting stuff starts when a new wave of mods specifically designed to be used as hexagonal tiles rolls out.

 

(Also, regarding Master Thief, and Heavy Impact... these mods and any other underused ones could be designed to have beneficial bonuses when adjacent to other infrequently used mods. Speaking hypothetically, imagine if by tiling together Thief's Wit, Master Thief, a third stealth-based mod, you were given assorted bonuses, like the ability to see lockers on the minimap, increased stealth attack damage, and some other nice bonus. Perhaps in addition to a slight bonus to mod base parameters. Overall it would help you build into a "thief/looter" archetype. Eventually someone will figure out the combination of mods to unlock this and they'll throw it out on the wiki, but the idea is to cultivate this sense of discovery when you build to a theme.)