Energy Siphon: Too Fun Not To Be Inherant.

[gell]

That quick fix would only serve to make players hate Nova more. It fixes one issue and creates another, where players are deprived of energy from mobs just because one player nuked them all (and maybe DE could code it so only Nova is deprived of orbs, but it would be confusing and inconsistency isn't good, even for a quick fix).

 

I don't like cooldowns on most things. I don't think they work well as a mechanic. While they do work to pace players, they also cause unnecessary restrictions. Some moves would really work well being done 2-3 times in rapid succession. With cooldowns, this is never an option. Put a 2 second cooldown (would be considered fast in most games with cooldowns), and it just means the player can never do that move faster. Games built entirely with cooldowns in mind need the cooldowns since their entire pacing is centered around the cooldown. Without them, players could just press all the buttons all the time. For something with energy, cooldowns are an added restriction that only hinder game play and choice.

 

The better thing for DE to do is a full rebalancing of abilities w hile we're still in "beta." They said they want to use stamina a lot more, so we may see that in the future. Stamina could work very well with energy, where energy keeps you from using ults too often (but still with the occasional 2 in quick succession), and stamina serves to exhaust you if you get too crazy. It keeps the player from going nuts non stop forever, but also gives them the freedom to opt to do so in small bursts. I think this creates the best of all worlds. It satisfies the concern that players should also have consequence for their actions too, as using bigger abilities would be tied to stamina (but abilities may be designed to regain stamina as well).

 

I strongly believe cooldowns don't belong in action games, at least for the meat of the game (one could argue an ult could have such a restriction). There's always a better option, although it may be harder to design for and balance when the option to use them successively is a factor.

Edited August 21, 2013 by gell

[notionphil]

I'd love an ability rebalance or an energy regen overhaul like I've written abt in a thread called Stances. But not holding my breath for either :)

[Drasiel]

While I'm not going to argue that energy system as whole could do with another look over from the Devs, my topic with this thread was more about energy siphon.

 

 

This is actually a decent point... Give us enough base regen and we can do away with the orb drops entirely.

 

The problem with giving players too much regen is it really just becomes a cooldown down system in reverse, ie. you're just counting up instead of down. Which will lead back to the players standing around waiting instead of hunting down enemies for a better source of energy.

 

About the spam fest because of over abundance of energy, I've always found that's more play style than the energy systems fault. Yeah you can just save up so you can spam your ultimate all the time (and this mostly prevalent in Defence missions I find), or If you look at it the way I do, you can use your lower energy cost skills more frequently and have fun with less world destroying options right up until the point where things hit the fan and you actually need to drop the 4 bomb.  As an aside, I think the main reason we don't see a lot of the other lower cost skills being used is because they either scale really poorly, aren't that player friendly, or just aren't really good to start with. 

[PaperAlien]

Is this supposed to be a good thing?

 

Not everything should be about making an easy game easier, and foolish omissions should be punishing.

Are you serious? Why the hell should I be punished because I can't be bothered moving around 10 mods in 2 frames just to transfer the Aura I want into a different frame? If you think that unneccesarily clumsy and badly designed UIs are challenging.... you obviously have no idea about game design.

 

Also, Energy Siphon is not overpowered. It's used so much because it's the only source of regenerating energy. This game should have had innate regeneration already. But it doesn't, so many people use Energy Siphon to fill in this hole.

Edited August 21, 2013 by PaperAlien

[Thelonious]

I thought about this idea too. Or something like that

 

Replace orb drops with innate regeneration.

Flow would increase the rate, as well as energy siphon to a lower extent, just as Amps work: they give you a little bonus, over mods you can already equip (serration/rifle amp, pressure point/steel charge)

Streamline would work exactly the same, reducing the cost of abilities.

 

Numbers would be based on an innate cooldown you want abilities to have:

example: 25 energy abilities > 10 second cooldown---->2.5 energy/sec.

Meaning you'd need 40 sec to get the energy for an ult, 30 secs for a bastille or snow globe.

Seems fair enough.

 

Then you adjust mod/aura bonus values accordingly, to a "maxed mod equiped" ceiling. 

Like 40 seconds going down to a minimum of 20, with Flow, streamline, energy siphon equiped. Yes, utlimates only every 20 seconds with each and every energy mod equiped. Seems tight enough to me.

That's just an example though, if it were only for me, i'd set ultimates to be usable only every minute. Minimum. But it's just my opinion.

 

No more unpunished mindless spamming. No more orbs collecting. Intelligent energy management and added depth.

 

Incindently that would shift the meta: good frames would not necessarily be the one with great ultis, but emphasis would be shifted to those with cheap, effective skills, like #1 and #2's (yay slash dash :p)

 

Edit: oh, and trinity would be useful again :p

Edited August 21, 2013 by Thelonious

[-Kittens-]

That quick fix would only serve to make players hate Nova more. It fixes one issue and creates another, where players are deprived of energy from mobs just because one player nuked them all (and maybe DE could code it so only Nova is deprived of orbs, but it would be confusing and inconsistency isn't good, even for a quick fix).

 

I don't like cooldowns on most things. I don't think they work well as a mechanic. While they do work to pace players, they also cause unnecessary restrictions. Some moves would really work well being done 2-3 times in rapid succession. With cooldowns, this is never an option. Put a 2 second cooldown (would be considered fast in most games with cooldowns), and it just means the player can never do that move faster. Games built entirely with cooldowns in mind need the cooldowns since their entire pacing is centered around the cooldown. Without them, players could just press all the buttons all the time. For something with energy, cooldowns are an added restriction that only hinder game play and choice.

 

The better thing for DE to do is a full rebalancing of abilities w hile we're still in "beta." They said they want to use stamina a lot more, so we may see that in the future. Stamina could work very well with energy, where energy keeps you from using ults too often (but still with the occasional 2 in quick succession), and stamina serves to exhaust you if you get too crazy. It keeps the player from going nuts non stop forever, but also gives them the freedom to opt to do so in small bursts. I think this creates the best of all worlds. It satisfies the concern that players should also have consequence for their actions too, as using bigger abilities would be tied to stamina (but abilities may be designed to regain stamina as well).

 

I strongly believe cooldowns don't belong in action games, at least for the meat of the game (one could argue an ult could have such a restriction). There's always a better option, although it may be harder to design for and balance when the option to use them successively is a factor.

 

Cooldown rate can be scaled time-per-instance like any other value. CD are rather likely not be in place, as rushing is already a pandemic to being with.

[Saenol]

Are you serious? Why the hell should I be punished because I can't be bothered moving around 10 mods in 2 frames just to transfer the Aura I want into a different frame? If you think that unneccesarily clumsy and badly designed UIs are challenging.... you obviously have no idea about game design.

 

I made no claim to any special knowledge of game design (which is irrelevant), nor did I claim a clumsy UI was part of the challenge. I do think there is room for improvement with the UI, but this is a completely and entirely different issue from what's being discussed here, and not remotely a good reason to be integrating more powers into frames.

 

Also, you don't need to move around 10 mods in two frames to transfer an aura; worst case scenario you need to move a handful.

 

If you cannot be bothered to double check your config before you enter a mission, you are punishing yourself; the UI has little to do with it.

[VegetableBasket]

It would add diversity to auras used but I'm not sure if the player in general needs a buff.

[Deviantis]

So I gave this thread a quick glance a few days ago and thought you were smoking some real fat orbs. However, I've just recently got Ash's bladestorm maxed, and I now see how sad it is whrn bladestorm ends. To that end, I thought, wouldn't it be great if his bladestorm actually gave energy back? And then thinking about it some more wouldn't that be great for all of these so-called bruisers? Or maybe add it to their more useless skills as a method to actively gain energy (shuriken, venom, pull, etc).

[notionphil]

So I gave this thread a quick glance a few days ago and thought you were smoking some real fat orbs. However, I've just recently got Ash's bladestorm maxed, and I now see how sad it is whrn bladestorm ends. To that end, I thought, wouldn't it be great if his bladestorm actually gave energy back? And then thinking about it some more wouldn't that be great for all of these so-called bruisers? Or maybe add it to their more useless skills as a method to actively gain energy (shuriken, venom, pull, etc).

 

On the topic of getting energy back by doing something cool....

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/97811-stances-tactical-teamwork-roles-that-make-energy-awesome/

[h8seekr]

I couldn't disagree more with the OP.  Aura's are meant for team play and when they stack they work as intended, which is to say they work great!!!

 

And splitting the frames???

 

[CaptainohCaptain]

I know, I'll be catching all the flying hats, but... what about adrenaline-like mechanic?

You have zero energy in common and you have only 3 ways to get it — pills (Remember, we have only 8 slots. so it would be difficult to choose from), getting the health damage and killing enemies, the closer, the better, with some weapons providing no gain at all (Yes, Ogris, no sweets for you). Energy resets to zero on revive to avoid ogris|torid suicide tactic.

If there is a big delay between getting "adrenaline", it decreases like in "No energy" nightmare mutator.

[Vladokapuh]

I also though about you starting with % of your maximum energy, instead of flat 50, what would make bonus energy mods more useful, both in pve and duels. For now using it in duel makes you waste a mod slot :p

[Eirshy]

I know, I'll be catching all the flying hats, but... what about adrenaline-like mechanic?

You have zero energy in common and you have only 3 ways to get it — pills (Remember, we have only 8 slots. so it would be difficult to choose from), getting the health damage and killing enemies, the closer, the better, with some weapons providing no gain at all (Yes, Ogris, no sweets for you). Energy resets to zero on revive to avoid ogris|torid suicide tactic.

If there is a big delay between getting "adrenaline", it decreases like in "No energy" nightmare mutator.

 

Range denies gain? I know, let's be $&*^s to the snipers out there because F*** those guys.

 

If unintended, nope, because of that.

If intended, please pick out your own profanity-laced string of insults, I can't be assed to do it for you.

[Jefftiffy]

Something I want to mention real quick before this gets way too in favor of removing Ultimate spamming. The enemies are the reason ultimates are spammed. In large numbers with the huge amounts of armor the have, there is almost no choice especially on modes with infinite enemies.

 

So if you want to remove the spammage, enemies have to be fixed as well.