Hitscan Needs To Go

[Tsukinoki]

@JerichoFayne

And you seemed to miss out on one thing: the bullets are not "lasers" but are much closer to "plasma" projectiles. (Hek, I even said that just barely further in the post if you had actually, oh I dont know, read what I had posted).

There is a *huge* difference between lasers and plasma, so please do your research there.

Energy =/= Laser

In this case their energy weapons are much closer to the plasma pistol from halo then to laser beams. Otherwise they would just be hitscan weaponry as well.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[JerichoFayne]

FTFY.

 

I'm not saying rolling = invulnerable.  This isn't Devil May Cry.  I'm saying that if an enemy unit sends a bullet on a trajectory, and I move myself from the trajectory, then I should not be hit.  The point is to better simulate evasive maneuvers, not create another way to completely avoid damage.

[OblivionNecroninja]

@JerichoFayne

And you seemed to miss out on one thing: the bullets are not "lasers" but are much closer to "plasma" projectiles. (Hek, I even said that just barely further in the post if you had actually, oh I dont know, read what I had posted).

There is a *huge* difference between lasers and plasma, so please do your research there.

Energy =/= Laser

In this case their energy weapons are much closer to the plasma pistol from halo then to laser beams. Otherwise they would just be hitscan weaponry as well.

Allow me to quote the in-game descriptions here:

"The Supra is a heavy laser gun with a short wind up time."

"The Dera is a repeater that fires super-heated plasma."

 

So, according to Physics, the Dera should use projectiles, while the Supra should be either hitscan or so close it doesn't matter.

...Which would make Corpus Techs REALLY damn annoying...

Edited August 22, 2013 by OblivionNecroninja

[JerichoFayne]

@JerichoFayne

And you seemed to miss out on one thing: the bullets are not "lasers" but are much closer to "plasma" projectiles. (Hek, I even said that just barely further in the post if you had actually, oh I dont know, read what I had posted).

There is a *huge* difference between lasers and plasma, so please do your research there.

Energy =/= Laser

In this case their energy weapons are much closer to the plasma pistol from halo then to laser beams. Otherwise they would just be hitscan weaponry as well.

 

Fair enough.  I've seen enough Star Wars to get on board with plasma as a projectile to justify slow moving beams of light.

[Tsukinoki]

@OblivionNecroninja

Then you have to take into account the entirety of the Corpus faction, which all uses 'energy' weapons that behave exactly like plasma weapons, not laser weapons. And if you go ahead with the "Oh, they use energy weapons which are lasers..." you've not solved anything by making the grineer have non-hitscan weaponry, all you've done is given the corpus hitscan weapons instead.

Currently *all* of the energy weapons in the game behave as plasma weapons, not lasers. And the point I was trying to bring up is that plasma weaponry in games almost universally travels slower than bullet weaponry so I dont see why this game should reverse that trend.

[Ronyn]

Guys....Don't try to make this a debate about realism or what is reasonable in a sci fi world.

That is all secondary stuff that should mainly be used to enhance the gameplay goals.

 

Because the paramount concern is the gameplay goals.

Warframe is intended to be a run and gun game.

Warframe has a variety of acrobatic actions meant to flow into that run and gun style.

SOOO If enemy fire cannot be evaded by any of the run and gun or acrobatic movements....

the gameplay goals are off kilter.

 

Due to warframes gameplay goals evasion should have some sort of effect on enemy fire.

Either give us enemy projectiles slow enough to dodge or allow evasive moves to throw off enemy aim.

[HAR1MAU]

Yea, the mechanics of the ignis is messed up : the way it currently works is that is fires ''fire'' bullets with limited range that are hitscan,
And the most confusing thing about it is that the animations have travel time, but the actual ''fire'' bullet does not.

[JerichoFayne]

Yea, the mechanics of the ignis is messed up : the way it currently works is that is fires ''fire'' bullets with limited range that are hitscan,

And the most confusing thing about it is that the animations have travel time, but the actual ''fire'' bullet does not.

 

This was kind of what I was getting at in my original post.  I would prefer that fire weapons created an arc of damage in front of the character, such that it wouldn't hit instantaneously, but would still require some skill to evade.

[Pekku]

I didn't take the time to read their name while I was running around, but they had the same NPC model as the seekers & were holding a flame thrower.  Any difference between the two is irrelevant to the point of the thread.

 

With regard to range, the point is that a jet of fluid doesn't instantaneously traverse the distance between 2 objects moving through space.  Think about THAT.

 

You do realize the AI keeps that jet of flame right on you? You're going to get burned no matter how or fast hard you roll when you're in range. First time I saw someone claim they "rolled" a flamethrower attack, really.

 

This was kind of what I was getting at in my original post.  I would prefer that fire weapons created an arc of damage in front of the character, such that it wouldn't hit instantaneously, but would still require some skill to evade.

 

A cone of flame is going to be even more impossible to dodge. I don't even know where you're going with this anymore.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Pekku

[Jefftiffy]

Let me help settle this OP. Corpus and our weapons are energy weapons (With the exception of the Fusion Moa). Laser plates shoot lasers because they are more advanced. As a Loki, I have no issues outrunning any form of bullet or energy shot. Lasers are glitchy and I can just roll through them the majority of the time.

 

Now, as for scorchers they are nearly impossible to dodge because their gun shoots a cone of fire and they turn in reaction to you moving so they just have to skim you with the cone to get hit. But honestly if you are close enough to the scorcher you are getting hit by it you may need to revise your gameplay strategy.

 

I am not saying that rolling is perfectly fine as it is. I am just saying that what you are saying isn't 100% accurate. Rolling has never been a viable strategy for anything but lasers and avoiding detection while crouched. Rolling honestly does need some use for in fights, but I honestly do not now how we could actually make it useful because in real life doing a roll wouldn't help much in a gunfight (swordfight yes).

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jefftiffy

[JerichoFayne]

You do realize the AI keeps that jet of flame right on you? You're going to get burned no matter how or fast hard you roll when you're in range. First time I saw someone claim they "rolled" a flamethrower attack, really.

 

 Go out in your back yard with a garden hose & try to hit a rabbit or a cat with the water jet.  Then come back in & tell me how impossible it is to dodge this type of weapon.

[Lord.Finster]

1) Giving all types of weapons travel time will unlikely result in reduced performance, seeing that Corpus maps (where all enemies fire Plasma) don't perform worse than Grineer maps (where almost all enemies have hitscan). I'm not running a high end machine but I wonder who really has problems on Corpus maps due to travelling projectiles and what their system specs are.

 

2) Dera and Supra and Lanka are plasma weapons, even if their description says otherwise. Stylewise they are StarWars blasters, which are also plasma based. Plasmabolts travelling slower than bullets is completely acceptable. Since they are a complete fantasy, no rules apply.

 

3) The only pseudo-real lasers in this game are the Flux, Spectra and Orokin traps in the Void. They work in acceptable parameters, since they fire continuous beams. You are right when you say that laser travels faster than bullets but that would mean that they too would be invisible to the eye, when fired in small packages. However, the lasers in this game are only visible because they are fired continuosly and burn up the air in their path, which creates the beam.

 

4)Unlike Planetside2, this game isn't a simulator. In PS2 every gun has different projectile speeds, which can also be modified with attachments, creating an authentic feel to the guns. You'll have to lead more or less on great distances, compensate for bullet dropoff, enemy movement and manage your recoil. Shooting (and positioning) is highly skillbased and takes most of the players brain resources.

Warframe isn't a simulation, though. While not being as OTT as UnrealTournament, Warframe guns are on a middle ground between fantasy and realism emphasizing style and feeling of guns, as well as their role in a coop game complemented by skills, melee and acrobatics. In that regard it plays more on the level of TF2. For this reason it's not possible to snipe with the HEK and the Gorgon anymore. The gun roles are more abstract in this game than in a simulation.

 

5)Changing bullets into projectiles with travel speed will not solve our dodging problem. Travel speed of the bullets will be so high, that the difference is negligible. Key is the enemy AI and how it reacts to a dodging/running player. The simplest solution is to reduce enemy weapon accuracy while shooting a dodging/wallrunning player, resulting in more spread and thus more missed bullets.

It would even be possible to reduce this penalty as the enemy mob level increases, simulating fighting enemy veterans who can deal with Tenno tricks better.

[Pekku]

 Go out in your back yard with a garden hose & try to hit a rabbit or a cat with the water jet.  Then come back in & tell me how impossible it is to dodge this type of weapon.

 

Your logic is amazing. Are you really trying to compare an actual flamethrower with a garden hose? Have you SEEN real flamethrowers? I cannot comprehend how you keep imagining that it's possible to dodge one that's in range.

[Jefftiffy]

Your logic is amazing. Are you really trying to compare an actual flamethrower with a garden hose? Have you SEEN real flamethrowers? I cannot comprehend how you keep imagining that it's possible to dodge one that's in range.

Real flamethrowers shoot a cloud of fire at speeds that cannot be dodged when within its range (which was a pretty big cone in front of the user). There was a reason they were used during WW2. And yes I am quoting you to back you up.

[MageMeat]

If this idea goes into the game in any form, then at least keep hitscan for certain sniper rifles.

Sniper rifles in real life fire the bullet by creating controlled ignition of an explosive material (like most firearms), and the projectile will on average travel around 320 or so m/s (can significantly vary between firearm and ammunition type).

The Lanka's description states that it fires "a high velocity projectile through magnetic induction", which is firing a bullet or similar object with magnetism. Since it is Corpus, and the Corpus manufactured the Snipetron and to an extent the Vandal version, we can assume that they operate under similar mechanics.

TL;DR: Hitscan for Corpus snipers. And the Lanka should have hitscan.

[OblivionNecroninja]

Your logic is amazing. Are you really trying to compare an actual flamethrower with a garden hose? Have you SEEN real flamethrowers? I cannot comprehend how you keep imagining that it's possible to dodge one that's in range.

Well, a REAL flamethrower DOES fires a stream of burning liquid...

At MUCH higher pressure. Thus making it more accurate.

Edited August 23, 2013 by OblivionNecroninja

[Psroij]

Also, modern projectile weapons fire their bullets at over 300m/s - in the short range combat that most of Warframe is based around, this is basically the same as hitscan (especially seeing as Warframe is futuristic, so the projectiles will probably travel even faster)

Just to add some specificity, 300m/s (~984ft/s) is on the low end for bullets fired from a handgun, rifle bullets travel ~750m/s (~2,460ft/s) to 1,250+m/s (~4,100+ft/s). Games rarely get the velocities correct because if they were to model them at distances maps typically are then there would be little difference from just making the guns hitscan, unless things like loss in velocity over time is calculated. Most games just choose somewhere between 300-600m/s because it gives the impression of realistic bullet travel without having to add in additional calculations to make it actually realistic.

 

Given how wonky meters are in Warframe though, a 300m/s velocity on bullet projectiles might be very noticeable, since a meter seems to correspond to a foot in game. (I guess they redefined the meter in the time frame Waframe takes place)

[Loswaith]

While the ignis is an issue in this reguard (and is on the top of the list to be looked at), keep in mind too that most of the grineer spray bullets, and rarely fire just one at a time, their snipers (rail moas as well) are actually quite easy to avoid the bullets of while moving

 

I dont mind the Ignis too much because it's more a factor of if you are too close you will get burned, which can be somewhat expected from a cone flame effect (even though it isnt).  So while it could use some tweaking it is still something reasonably easy to avoid by not getting close.

 

 

The bigger issue I see is the lack of reloading enemies have (not to mention an infinite bullet/energy/deployables capacity), sure they have pauses (so it works to an extent), but they are no where near the length of time it can take to reload the same type of weapon as it does for the Tenno, even if the weapon is fully modded with reload speed.