A Glaring Problem In The "no Nerfs, Only Buffs" Ideology Curently Circulating.

[pdxdubin]

TL;DR: I know some people are going to say too long didnt read, so I'll spare you the trouble of looking for a gif on google telling me that you didn't.

Go ahead, choose one.

 

 

 

Now for this topic i will catch flak, be called dumb or assholish, and other variety of names but I see a problem going on. Everyone lately has been saying that since this is a PVE game, nerfs are essentially un-needed and everything should just be buffed to an equal level. 

No while that might sound beautiful to the ears, it may not essentially work out in practice. Here is a scenario I will give:

The Acrid is currently the best weapon in the game and Nova is the best frame in game. Now say that every gun and frame (barring the starter weapons) is buffed equally to the Acrid's level. The game's difficulty would be trivialized as every other weapon will be able to essentially melt every enemy in game in a matter of seconds. This would lead to the game becoming to easy. How will DE cope with this? By adding harder content. But how will that content become harder? Buffing enemy health, shields, and armor most likely. But this isn't a buff in difficulty. It just makes the enemies larger bullet sponges, and since all weapons are now equal in terms of effectiveness, there would be no need in acquiring new weapons since the ones you currently own will work just as well. This would lead to boredom. How will DE cope with the spreading boredom? Adding better weapons. But the complaints of "all the other weapons are now too weak to do harder content" will flow in. How will DE cope with this? By buffing all the weapons to the level of the new weapons in effectiveness, but this just creates the same problem in an endless loop until the game becomes too easy again. Any long time players have already experienced this long before the times of Kunai and Acrids when even the Sicarus and Kraken were good choices.

 

 

 

Solution? Maybe letting go of the philosophy of "Don't nerf Y to be as bad as X, buff X to be as good as Y". There is a reason nerfs happen in games. Instead of buffing everything to Acrid level, maybe nerf the Acrid by a reasonable bit to bring it to the levels of a sidearm in the same tier (Mastery Rank 7). Sometimes it's just necessary. I would love to own everything with  fully modded Twin Vipers just as well as I could with an Acrid. But know what would happen if every sidearm was equal? I would get bored. Now other people may not get as bored easily as I do, and I don't mean that in a way to encompass everyone else. 

I just think that nerfs are needed sometimes in gaming and buffing everything just isn't the answer. Does this mean we shouldn't get harder content? No. Not at all. This just means that future hard content shouldn't be downgraded and made for every weapon in order to be "fair and balanced". Does this mean the damage system doesn't need a fix? No that doesn't mean that at all. There is always room for improvement and high tier bullet weapons shouldn't always be lesser then an armor ignore gun of the same tier, but lets keep a Sicarus as a Sicarus, a low tier weapon, but instead look at the current dominating weapons and see how they can be adjusted to make current hard content less trivial.

 

No

 

Allow low teir weapons to become as strong as the acrid

 

Make the forma process do more then change polarity slots

 

Allow us to change stats, and make it require a certain mastery rank, to use weapons of certain upgrade levels.

Meaning if your mastery lv 7

 

Your acrid should do as much damage as your +7 Burston or sicarus

Because logically it should require the same amount of time.

However Mastery rank 1-2 people will still have S#&$ty burstons, meaning that people can choose to level a weapon they like

Or just buy one that is already strong.

That is how balancing should be, and how it is, in every game.

 

An Enhancement system needs to be created

[syle]

nope

I disagree

rebalancing by nerfs is garbage

lol is a perfect example

buff everything else

its way more fun

[BoompigXD]

No

 

Allow low teir weapons to become as strong as the acrid

 

Make the forma process do more then change polarity slots

 

Allow us to change stats, and make it require a certain mastery rank, to use weapons of certain upgrade levels.

Meaning if your mastery lv 7

 

Your acrid should do as much damage as your +7 Burston or sicarus

Because logically it should require the same amount of time.

However Mastery rank 1-2 people will still have S#&$ty burstons, meaning that people can choose to level a weapon they like

Or just buy one that is already strong.

That is how balancing should be, and how it is, in every game.

 

An Enhancement system needs to be created

<Implying the Mod system isn't basically Enchantments

[BoompigXD]

nope

I disagree

rebalancing by nerfs is garbage

lol is a perfect example

buff everything else

its way more fun

What a well constructed post with perfect reasoning

[Destro6677]

If the devs solve the problem by introducing tiered weapons with incomparable elements, I'm all for it.

 

Having a lower level bolt weapon for mastery 2 and essentially a faster-firing, higher damage reskin with a different firing mechanic or some other effect at mastery 4 is fine by me.

 

I give my boltor a generous amount of love and forma by my standards, but if they have to nerf it to make the game more balanced, I won't complain unless they destroy it in the process.

 

Edit: And if they give us a planet to grind for forma between tiers, would that solve part of the issue?

 

Eg: If I could use my boltor until rank 4 but needed to farm forma for it to actually reach rank 4 content.

 

Edit 2: I think Dubin is right on this one. An enhancement system, not necessarily the same as forma, would allow for 'master crafted' weapons that can be just as viable at higher levels. Lower tier weapons like the burston should have a greater maximum number of enhancements that can be applied than say, an Ogris.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Destro6677

[ThePresident777]

Glaring problems with NERF IT NERF IT:

1)  If people are doing X instead of Y, it's because they want to do X instead of Y, not because they need you to force them to do Y instead of X.

2)  Nerfing is not creative.  It's better to find a creative solution to the problem because the purpose of a game is to have fun.  For instance, gremlins as the full auto version of akbolto instead of persecuting, because Reasons of the Developers, players who use mouse macros.  Another example, Arid Fear was great for Volts.

3)  Some people like it easy.  Who are you to take that away from them?  If you like a challenge, then nerf yourself and try to outscore them.

4)  People don't need you managing their time.  If they don't have centuries to grind, who are you to get in their way?

5)  If you don't like something, then instead of asking the developers to make the entire game to suit you, come up with some creative ideas for scenarios that solve YOUR problem instead of inflicting your solution of everybody else.  For instance, Friendly Fire mode would do wonders to stop Press Button  4 to Win and prove very challenging and put an end to A****** who purposely block your shots.  Or, anti-matter containment environments.  Or more doors requiring 2 or more people to open them to slow down rushers.  Or ..........

 

Warframe doesn't have so much variety in it that just twiddling with straight numbers on weapons and warframes does anything to improve the game.  As an example of the non-sense that is the nerfer mentality I present Mass Effect 3 MP.  Bioware toyed with us every week or two with their silly little balance tweaks that did nothing to make the game fun, did nothing to address the real issues with the game.  Every once in a while they would dump a new batch of characters and weapons on us to chase around on the tread mill.  But, they never put out any new content that was a real game changer.  It was all just a bunch of rehashing and twiddling.  Even if Mass Effect 3 MP was perfectly balanced it would have still been a sluggish, buggy, clunky tread mill feeding players into it's troll store/casino.

 

So, screw balance.  I want a game changer.  I want fun.

Edited August 25, 2013 by ThePresident777

[dEEkAy2k9]

it's not about buffing or nerfing anything to be equal compared to another weapon.

 

weapons should first have tiers, REASONABLE tiers. this again would need some really heavy rebalancing of the game as mission progress is not linear. let's say you start this game on mercury and there, enemies are heavily armored, weapon of choice would be something armor ignoring or piercing.

 

on the next planet again you would need something that does electrical damage as there are a lot of robots that do not benefit from being shot by armor piercing/ignoring weapons but heavily get damaged by electrical weapons. next system again then is infested and weapon of choice would be something with fire. and so on and so on. you would somehow PROGRESS through the game and the last system (endgame for now) would need you to have a good balance of everything at hand to survive missions.

of course this would need a complete overhaul of the current mod system as you can just take your braton, pack on ap, fire, electric and ice damage and have fun with every enemy. (note that armor piercing weapons do have an advantage against ALL enemy types).

 

taking my suggestions into account, DE should introduce some tiered weapons. like tier 4 fire weapons etc and then again tier 3 fire weapons that are better then t4 fire weapons but harder to get.

 

right now there are just weapons that are UTTERLY and COMPLETELY crap EVERYWHERE and under all aspects while others are just superior in EVERY aspect. warframe should be about personal preference. otherwise the modding system would be completely useless. why do i need a specific weapon to be of any use in high wave high lvl defense missions? mods are here to customize our weapons, weapons are here to give us a choice what style we want to play.

 

do you love shotguns, take em and mod em the right way. do you love burstfire rifles or assault rifles? snipers? sure, why not.

right now there are only a few choices you can take to NOT be a burden to your teammates.

[Solaurus]

No

 

Allow low teir weapons to become as strong as the acrid

 

Make the forma process do more then change polarity slots

 

Allow us to change stats, and make it require a certain mastery rank, to use weapons of certain upgrade levels.

Meaning if your mastery lv 7

 

Your acrid should do as much damage as your +7 Burston or sicarus

Because logically it should require the same amount of time.

However Mastery rank 1-2 people will still have S#&$ty burstons, meaning that people can choose to level a weapon they like

Or just buy one that is already strong.

That is how balancing should be, and how it is, in every game.

 

An Enhancement system needs to be created

Kinda hurts to have your clan master disagree with you, but if an enhancement system were to be instituted, their would have to be certain limits in place. An Acrid enhanced 8 times should be more powerful then a Sicarus enhanced 8 times. Just because of the extra work it takes to get to rank 7, the materials are needed on a greater scale, and it would take more work doing all of that and upgrading Acrid 8 times than just buying the Sicarus and upgrading it 8 times.

[ThePresident777]

It doesn't matter if you have tiers, or tears, or if all weapons do the same DPS or if you make a big mountain out them and melt them all into a sculpture of mickey mouse.  You are going to do the same exact thing in the same exact place against the same exact enemy under the same exact conditions because there is nothing else to do.  Warframe's biggest problems require creativity, not arithmatic, not twiddling with numbers like Bioware did with Mass Effect 3 MP.

Edited August 26, 2013 by ThePresident777

[J-Pax]

The buff X to the standard of Y argument should only be applied to under developed weaponry and warframes. At the same time clearly OP weaponry and warframes need to be brought down. Trick comes in identifying which is which.

 

 

In all fairness fun factor matters more than nerfs/buffs. DE are currently working on a new model on how damaging enemies works, so while this post is a good argument it's kind of past the fact that DE has noticed this problem already from player feedback. Lets just hope their updated model is a solution and not another problem.

[J-Pax]

What a well constructed post with perfect reasoning

 As sarcastic as that reads, he is right. It's more fun to have your game play choices buffed, rather than someone else's choices nerfed. Still the system is being reworked for how damage is dealt to enemies so I'm going to hold my breath until that comes in.

[Reaver_X]

Making sure every gun in the game doesnt suck doesnt make the game boring, it gives u more freedom to play how u want....don't wanna use a gun that is slow, but can 1 shot enemies with ease? then dont, go ahead and take em down with a hail of bullets instead, Either way both weapons are effective and viable, they just have different ways to go about using them, The way i see it is, As far as mastery goes, i believe that weapons that are of the same mastery lvl should be interchangeable with each other, neither completely overshadowing the other. However, the mastery level above those guns will overshadow those guns by a reasonable amount (nothing too absurd) The whole point of mastery is getting access to better and better guns. (or melee weapons)

[Love2Camp]

What else would you measure? The fun factor? Yeah well I like bows when I want to have fun, but I think I would get a bit annoyed if the next 6 bows had different stats but were just as effective as each other as I would have no reason to get them other then "Durrrr i bye tings i dont ned cuz i likez wsting muney nd or t1me! DUUUUUUUUUUUUUIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUr"

What if you really like bows, and they release a shotgun that is more effective?

I pick my weapons by how much I like using them, their effectiveness is determined mostly by mods anyways.

[Zedonius666]

Honestly, nothing matters in this game in terms of power. 

 

How do you make the game harder? Really... Increasing HP and dmg output of mobs is pretty much the only way. 

 

How do you make the players deal with harder content? Make weapons that do more dmg, and frames that do more dmg. 

 

Repeat. 

 

Sadly, this is the way of PvE games. You make them too hard and people complain. You make it too easy, and people complain. You can't win. 

 

The only thing I wish DE would do is introduce new enemy types. Hell some of the enemies in the game hardly even show up. Look at "Napalm" Grineer... hardly even see them (never in defence missions). Why?  Why are the new grineer types also limited to spawning on the new tile set?. They don't even show up in defence either. 

 

I really don't understand where DE is going with this game any more. It seems like they are too scared to make the game a challenge.  The events are cool, but they really need to make it so they are HARD. The reward at the end should be kept secret at all times.  Rewards should be given as well AS you do the event, to give incentive to people to actually give a damn about it. 

 

This game in a nutshell right now is.  Start at point A. Go to point B. Leave at point C. Everything in between is trivial and pointless. Hell even the end is pointless. 

[RavenOfTheFlock]

I can tell by your post that you are missing your complimentary DIDNT READ LOL gif as nothing you said addresses any of the problems I brought up. Seems like you saw the words tier, frame, and Acrid than wrote some stuff you thought would fit.

 

So what are you saying exactly? Because I read it in full. Chuckled a little bit, too. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you then don't make threads, period. People are bound to disagree/agree/not be decided. I see threads of hate and such like you're posting pop up from time to time. The only thing that all of them are not understanding is that they need to 'trust DE to do what they've done best and keep on improving the experience for everyone rather than just one person.'

I could rewrite what I wrote and tear apart your OP while re-addressing what I stated. Fact is that I can't be bothered nor do I care to do as such. It seems like you're attacking anyone who disagrees with you that you think what you are saying is absolute. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying as hostility. People that know me know what I'm like when I get 'hostile', this is far from it. I am just responding. nothing more, if it gets too far off base I will just begin to ignore this thread like the thousands of others I ignore.

[ThePresident777]

Honestly, nothing matters in this game in terms of power. 

 

How do you make the game harder? Really... Increasing HP and dmg output of mobs is pretty much the only way. 

 

How do you make the players deal with harder content? Make weapons that do more dmg, and frames that do more dmg. 

 

Repeat. 

 

Sadly, this is the way of PvE games. You make them too hard and people complain. You make it too easy, and people complain. You can't win. 

 

The only thing I wish DE would do is introduce new enemy types. Hell some of the enemies in the game hardly even show up. Look at "Napalm" Grineer... hardly even see them (never in defence missions). Why?  Why are the new grineer types also limited to spawning on the new tile set?. They don't even show up in defence either. 

 

I really don't understand where DE is going with this game any more. It seems like they are too scared to make the game a challenge.  The events are cool, but they really need to make it so they are HARD. The reward at the end should be kept secret at all times.  Rewards should be given as well AS you do the event, to give incentive to people to actually give a damn about it. 

 

This game in a nutshell right now is.  Start at point A. Go to point B. Leave at point C. Everything in between is trivial and pointless. Hell even the end is pointless. 

 

 

There are other ways to challenge players other than just making enemies more bullet spongee and more damaging.  Friendly Fire is one example of such a challenge.

Edited August 26, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Bakim0n0]

"The Acrid is currently the best weapon in the game and Nova is the best frame in game."

And like that you lost me. Nice thread tho.

[Thorgest]

you missed one

[W4RM4CHIN3]

Forward this thread to Devs

 

DERebecca

 

DESteve

 

Grineeer

Edited August 26, 2013 by W4RM4CHIN3

[Relkin]

whoa whoa whoa OP are you insane?  Are you actually asking for all things in moderation?  What's wrong with you? lol 

 

No srsly, this is great. 

[Solaurus]

So what are you saying exactly? Because I read it in full. Chuckled a little bit, too. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you then don't make threads, period. People are bound to disagree/agree/not be decided. I see threads of hate and such like you're posting pop up from time to time. The only thing that all of them are not understanding is that they need to 'trust DE to do what they've done best and keep on improving the experience for everyone rather than just one person.'

I could rewrite what I wrote and tear apart your OP while re-addressing what I stated. Fact is that I can't be bothered nor do I care to do as such. It seems like you're attacking anyone who disagrees with you that you think what you are saying is absolute. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying as hostility. People that know me know what I'm like when I get 'hostile', this is far from it. I am just responding. nothing more, if it gets too far off base I will just begin to ignore this thread like the thousands of others I ignore.

I can handle people disagreeing with me. People did it on several occasions and I explained my opinions to them calmly while accepting theirs. I just see little to nothing in your statement that involves what I said.

[Solaurus]

"The Acrid is currently the best weapon in the game and Nova is the best frame in game."

And like that you lost me. Nice thread tho.

It's true. Acrid beats everything DPS wise and Nova, as long as you can keep yourself out of danger, blows up everything. I can do a T3 defense as Nova with a team without dying at all. Did it on several occasions.

[Reaver_X]

Dont complain about nova, Nova is how Ember should be, buff ember :D

[EnzoVulkoor]

I've noticed our community has a weird concept of the term 'Nerf'.

 

In some frame threads turning Frost's snow globe into a giant decaying over time Nova bomb = Nerf...

Here if I read it right. You are suggesting adding more purpose to our ranking system without making tons of guns on the level of a lato in terms of being useless.

 

if the above is not the case where we aren't just moving x to Y rank and calling it a day. Then in all honesty we have also seen in other games where nerf wars are just as bad as a buff war. Nerfing everything to add a fair balance field we end up with constant flux and people gettign sick and tired of one day X is decent, next it's one shotting everything and then the day after.. it's a lucky day it doesn't hit for 0.

 

A system where we are able to pick a weapon and frame that matches our own playstyle and is still useful is a decent balance system. A system where say a paris has been nerfed to being as damaging as a lato for the sake of 'balance'; is a bad design.

 

I really have no problem with how things are now except for any sort of power or ability that is single target, dart tickler for 25 energy.

 

 

It's true. Acrid beats everything DPS wise and Nova

 

Yeah see that's a problem. One I wish I saw with the OP. Everything has a role. Vauben with the same layout as a Nova makes damage pointless as it becomes an endless player's turn only fight. (Not just Bastille, his other powers are equally as good for this.)

Edited August 27, 2013 by KuzmaVolkov

[merryfistmas]

It doesn't matter if you have tiers, or tears, or if all weapons do the same DPS or if you make a big mountain out them and melt them all into a sculpture of mickey mouse.  You are going to do the same exact thing in the same exact place against the same exact enemy under the same exact conditions because there is nothing else to do.  Warframe's biggest problems require creativity, not arithmatic, not twiddling with numbers like Bioware did with Mass Effect 3 MP.

This, whether you nerf or buff everything to the same level you still have the same problem. The weapons don't need to be nerfed or buffed to similar effectiveness (well, some do) they need to feel and function differently from each other and have advantages that make each weapon worth using.