A Glaring Problem In The "no Nerfs, Only Buffs" Ideology Curently Circulating.

[Solaurus]

I've noticed our community has a weird concept of the term 'Nerf'.

 

In some frame threads turning Frost's snow globe into a giant decaying over time Nova bomb = Nerf...

Here if I read it right. You are suggesting adding more purpose to our ranking system without making tons of guns on the level of a lato in terms of being useless.

 

if the above is not the case where we aren't just moving x to Y rank and calling it a day. Then in all honesty we have also seen in other games where nerf wars are just as bad as a buff war. Nerfing everything to add a fair balance field we end up with constant flux and people gettign sick and tired of one day X is decent, next it's one shotting everything and then the day after.. it's a lucky day it doesn't hit for 0.

 

A system where we are able to pick a weapon and frame that matches our own playstyle and is still useful is a decent balance system. A system where say a paris has been nerfed to being as damaging as a lato for the sake of 'balance'; is a bad design.

 

I really have no problem with how things are now except for any sort of power or ability that is single target, dart tickler for 25 energy.

 

 

 

Yeah see that's a problem. One I wish I saw with the OP. Everything has a role. Vauben with the same layout as a Nova makes damage pointless as it becomes an endless player's turn only fight. (Not just Bastille, his other powers are equally as good for this.)

Well of course nerfing would have to be somewhat of a last resort. Devs that tend to get nerf crazy sometimes overdue it and I would hate to see that happen. I just think weapons that dominate everything shouldn't dominate anything beyond its tier. Acrid should still be a very good sidearm, but should be kept on par with sidearms in its tier. Because really, T.Gremlins and Despair are Rank 7 weapons in functionality but DE doesn't see the balancing potential in their Mastery Rank system. It grinds my gears to see Mastery Rank 3-5 people with Despairs and T.Gremlins since I pretty much know that they are going to ignore other sidearms in such an early stage of the game since essentially nothing else beats the current sidearm they have. DE doesn't see this apparently.

[MattHarrigan]

DE never said, they wouldn't nerf stuff. I think you mean what Scott said about the warframe buffs on the previously useless frames Rhino, Mag, Volt etc. They never said they would buff other weapons to match the end game weapons like Acrid.

Some things btw have been nerfed: Saryn's Miasma, Latron Prime's base dmg just from the top of my head.

As the entire dmg system is reworked, you can assume that the number of viable guns for endgame will rise, which after all is what we all wanted.

[neKroMancer]

While it certainly feels good to have dev response with "buff x as good as y", I think it's ideal at best and rather impossible task to accomplish. Personally, I think 'buff everything" argument is kind of naive. Once you have everything as good as the most powerful thing, the game would be already too easy and DE have to increase AI durability to cope with our increasing power.

 

That's equal to nerfing everything simultaneously, imo. Only bloated stat and damage number remain. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

However, being on equal footing doesn't mean they are the same. In my point of view, GunA can shoot faster than gunB but deal less damage per shot and require player to get close to deal damage while gunB shoot relatively slower but deal higher damage. Even when both guns' DPS are roughly the same, they still offer different ways to cope with the situation.

 

Therefore, this bring us the the argument about role which each item perform in the game. When one look at the game and see two items that serve two different roles, that's good. However, adding third item into the game that can perform role of two previous items at the same time without any flaw mean the first two will be obsoleted.

 

Role and equality should be DE focus while balancing the game. Warframe monetary system solely based on varieties of weapons and frames that player can choose. Having direct upgrade serves no purpose but cutting their own profit. 

 

Tier system, as Scott mentioned in latest livestream, is as good as the game transparency goes. Of course, higher tiers should consist of better and better items as tier progress. What will happen when DE decide to release "Carid", a mastery 8 tier sidearm, into the game?

- Your catalysted, 8 times formaed Acrid becomes obsolete.

- One catalyst and 8 formas lost (hours of playing or 180 platinum down the drain).

- Resources used in the process of crafting Acrid are lost, along with hours of playing.

 

Do we really want tier system that potentially can make your existing weapons turn into inferior variant once newer things hit the shelves? Just like what Hind did to Burston?  

[Blatantfool]

NeKro, I disagree.

 

 Mostly because the current state of balance people are claiming DE should hold Warframes and Weapons to are pretty lame.

 

  Many Warframes are lucky to have two useful skills. What defines a Warframe as 'top tier' is literally just having a skill set with 4 abilities that are useful against tougher enemies.

 

 MPrime? It isn't that broken. The only bad thing about it is that DE has yet to include an addition to each enemy faction with the ability to cure status effects. Something they probably should have done before adding a damage amp status effect like that.

 

 Imagine how different MPrime would feel with a small change like, say, being unable to MPrime foes currently under the regen effect of an Infested Ancient Healer. Just imagine if that enemy was constantly cleansing status effects with its aura. MPrime isn't just a big deal then. Not so broken unless the player uses it at just the right moment.

 

 

 

 One of the biggest problem I have with the people saying the 'Buff it all' thing is nonsense is the fact that I feel like many of you are ignoring that most of the Weapons and Frames that aren't considered good are honestly quite bad. Eventually DE has to pick a power level and stick to it. If that is going to be the case I'd prefer that power level be something that feels good, like Nova, compared to other Warframes with useless skills on their bar.

 

 You should not be asking for any frame at all to be Nerfed to the level of Frames who need buffs and any frame that doesn't happen to be top tier right now isn't top tier because their skills don't cut it.

 

 Rhino makes the cut. Vauban makes the cut. Nova makes the cut. All Frames should feel that good. Feel that powerful. The rest of the game needs to rise up and meet this level of power. 

[Alohoe]

 

 

 

 

 One of the biggest problem I have with the people saying the 'Buff it all' thing is nonsense is the fact that I feel like many of you are ignoring that most of the Weapons and Frames that aren't considered good are honestly quite bad. Eventually DE has to pick a power level and stick to it. If that is going to be the case I'd prefer that power level be something that feels good, like Nova, compared to other Warframes with useless skills on their bar.

 

 You should not be asking for any frame at all to be Nerfed to the level of Frames who need buffs and any frame that doesn't happen to be top tier right now isn't top tier because their skills don't cut it.

 

 Rhino makes the cut. Vauban makes the cut. Nova makes the cut. All Frames should feel that good. Feel that powerful. The rest of the game needs to rise up and meet this level of power. 

This.  Give this man a cookie!

[neKroMancer]

NeKro, I disagree.

 

 Mostly because the current state of balance people are claiming DE should hold Warframes and Weapons to are pretty lame.

 

  Many Warframes are lucky to have two useful skills. What defines a Warframe as 'top tier' is literally just having a skill set with 4 abilities that are useful against tougher enemies.

 

 MPrime? It isn't that broken. The only bad thing about it is that DE has yet to include an addition to each enemy faction with the ability to cure status effects. Something they probably should have done before adding a damage amp status effect like that.

 

 Imagine how different MPrime would feel with a small change like, say, being unable to MPrime foes currently under the regen effect of an Infested Ancient Healer. Just imagine if that enemy was constantly cleansing status effects with its aura. MPrime isn't just a big deal then. Not so broken unless the player uses it at just the right moment.

 

 

 

 One of the biggest problem I have with the people saying the 'Buff it all' thing is nonsense is the fact that I feel like many of you are ignoring that most of the Weapons and Frames that aren't considered good are honestly quite bad. Eventually DE has to pick a power level and stick to it. If that is going to be the case I'd prefer that power level be something that feels good, like Nova, compared to other Warframes with useless skills on their bar.

 

 You should not be asking for any frame at all to be Nerfed to the level of Frames who need buffs and any frame that doesn't happen to be top tier right now isn't top tier because their skills don't cut it.

 

 Rhino makes the cut. Vauban makes the cut. Nova makes the cut. All Frames should feel that good. Feel that powerful. The rest of the game needs to rise up and meet this level of power. 

 

Two of us always disagree in this matter. 

 

"Feel good" is extremely subjective, hard to explain and one simply can't use it to create parameter or framework to work with. As far as I see, Vauban and Rhino do well in their intended roles : CC/buff and pure CC. They don't bring crazy damage abilities to the table since it's not their role, judged by the set of powers they have.

 

Nova makes the cut simply because she stands out among other casters since she has almost no cons in her abilities. Volt is good as long as he fights against Corpus, other than that he should be casting Electric shield all the time. Ember is good against Infest but a joke against other types of enemies and Overheat is her only useful power at that point.

 

What kind of enemy that Nova weak against? What is her intended role in the game? A replacement of all existing casters in the game? Her role heavily overlap with many other frames - damage, debuff, mobility, CC; All in one package.

 

If DE are to buff Volt and Ember to Nova's standard, what will happen to Loki which has 4th ability that debuff everything? What about Vauban and Rhino that seek to control the field of combat? 

 

What is there left to control in presence of Nova?

 

Playing Loki doesn't feel so good now, right? 

 

Asking the game to evolve is good. Asking the game to change in order to leave your (in general, not direct at you Blatant) favorite items intact isn't good. Something I have seen a lot in many topics. 

 

To be honest, DE should add enemy type that immune to powers in general along with armor2.0 overhaul. Not just cleansing status effect. While doing so, stop releasing new content that creating new standard in balance. The same idea I had been proposing again and again and had been met with rather... disappointing comments.  

 

Moreover, Warframe is already neck deep in powercreep. The fact that we have to judge frames' efficacy with lv 150 AI is already the fact that powercreep isn't beginning to appear but it's already here in full force.

Edited August 27, 2013 by neKroMancer

[jwya]

Rhino makes the cut.

Really...

[ArsVampyre]

Nerfs limit choices.  Buffs give alternate choices.  More player choice == more player enjoyment.

 

Your argument is dumb.  Asking for nerfs because the enemies at Mercury and Venus are trival to beat (or even Saturn or hell, xini on Eris) when your weapons are at rank 30 with a catalyst and you've got fusion'd mods and forma'd polarity to maximize damage is stupid.  As awesome as the Acrid is, the fact is that if you want Mastery points, you're only going to get 30 ranks out of it.  You might forma it a few times (why?) and play with it some more, or take it on particularly difficult missions like Void tier 3 defense missions, but the only REAL improvement in the game, the only REAL goal, is to increase mastery.  And that means new weapons, new frames, and leaving your ranked up Acrid behind because it's a weapon slot you could be using something like Dual Vasto's in and gaining mastery.

 

But if some of the really crap weapons were buffed, maybe they wouldn't be so painful to rank up (Ceramic Dagger).

[Blatantfool]

Two of us always disagree in this matter. 

-snip-

 

 Gotta admit, that is a big contributing reason as to why I like to talk with ya like this so often. Always interesting. 

 

  You are right in saying 'Feels good' is pretty different from one guy to the other - but that doesn't mean you aren't going to fine that it is important to work on that 'Game feel'. Things need to feel solid, responsive. You need to get good feedback from the game for making big plays.

 

The Easy mode example in this situation, like usual, is Nova. It isn't any mystery how to get a massive multikill or huge damage at Nova. To just wind up and unleash hell on something with a satisfying 'pop'.

 

 I'm not really saying that feel is for everybody - it isn't, some people wont care for it - but it is there. Nova feels good.

 

 Vauban, Rhino and Loki do too, although in different ways each. But to be honest I find that pretty fantastic. I mean, that seems ideal right? Multiple frames that just feel good to use in the right situation.

 

 

 

 And about my whole shtick with 'It is time to patch the holes in enemy factions'. It really isn't about Nova, she just happens to be the first example everyone thinks of right now. This goes on into the future too. If DE takes the time to round out the enemy factions - to make sure that there are things existing in each of them that can potentially counteract powerful player tools the likes of MPrime or Invisibility - then it'll help far into the future. DE will be able to be slightly more extreme with ALL skills because the potential for the enemy factions to still be able to deal with the player is still there.

 

 The perfect situation would be to have every single instance of 'Counteractive measures' among the enemy faction be something that a little clever gameplay would counter act. If they could make avoiding your potential counter as simple as paying attention and changing your gameplan a bit on the fly then I think it is more or less mission accomplished.

 

 Will it fix all balance issues forever? Hell no. But it is long overdue DE did it and the benefit is enough that its worthwhile.

[Solaurus]

Give it up for Blatant for resurrecting the topic I forgot in such a crucial time with all the (well deserved) nerfs going around.

[Blatantfool]

Give it up for Blatant for resurrecting the topic I forgot in such a crucial time with all the (well deserved) nerfs going around.

 

 Nope. Nothing can stop me from being handsome.

[BoompigXD]

Nope. Nothing can stop me from being handsome.

Z Classy

[counterintel]

This same argument occurred with the Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer and for the same reasons. The fact that weapons were not designed well, the overall enemy meta was a mess, artfical divisions were created based on 'rarity' which the Devs didn't even bother to follow.

The call for no more Nerfs comes when the majority of lower or intro weapons are not usable in late game play, or worse when 'rare' weapons do not fit the existing meta. In a game that encourages weapon collection and 'upgrading' for money it directly contorducits the "use the better tier guns". This is not a dungeon crawler as much as DE started it as such. The Overcharge and Forma systems threw the normal mode of "drop your current weapon for the next beast thing" a dissonant note in this game. Combine that with exponential enemy stat scaling and your cant do what Borderlands 1&2 or Alien Syndrome did, in that Diablo style.

Warframe is having that same messed up enemy meta and weapons that aren't following any real or clear tiered system. The current array of weapons has side grades (often dysfunctional in their intended role) and pure upgrades. This is a bad mix as it isn't always clear which should be which. What are Gremlins? Side grade or upgrade to Dual Vipers? Or are they side-down grades?

With that said, @OP, people will keep calling for Buffs over Nerfs until higher level enemy stats are sorted out and DE figures out how they are going to handle side-grades vs upgrades.

 

Everything you just said is all part of why I like the system the way it is.

[Madotsuki]

Honestly I would prefer weapons with differences in kind than differences in scale, basically more weapons with different abilities that make them fun and unique to use even if they aren't "optimal", rather than just different stats which fails to redirect attention from their optimability.

For example, the Miter is clearly less optimal compared to the Acrid or the Supra, but I like to use the Miter anyway because it's just damn fun to launch piercing sawblades at people. In the same way, while the Glaive or Kestrel is clearly less optimal than something like the Orthos, I would still use them over the Orthos because it's more interesting to spartan-kestrel someone into a bottomless pit or use the Glaive's return trip to hit someone from behind a wall. These weapons have differences in kind, which redirects attention from their non-optimability.

While it's okay to have tiered weapons (as long as the power creep remains reasonable and decelerates over time in favor of differences in kind within the same tier) as that gives players something to strive for, that doesn't mean that lower tier weapons should be neglected and be utterly redundant. The problem right now is that too many weapons simply differ in stats and not usage, thus resulting in a truckload of completely redundant gear and causing players to cry out for buffs to many weapons to increase variability in high level play. Afterall, who would ever use the Machete when the Orthos is just as easily attainable, yet has a much better power level?

tl;dr It's okay to have tiered weapons since the game would become boring if all or most weapons and gear were perfectly balanced, but DE should focus on introducing differences in kind over differences in scale, basically giving more weapons unique abilities and usage, which would make them fun to use despite their non-optimability. Weapons within the same tier should be relatively balanced both in terms of power and availability, while higher tier weapons should not be so powerful that it trivializes most gear in the lower one or two tiers.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Madotsuki

[Tetsmeha]

DE didn't really want to address armor issues or improving AI. So buffing weapons is really the only choice in that kind of situation. However, if they had a whole AI overhaul like the bosses, then it's better to nerf and re-balance rather than buff everything.

[Hoth]

can I choose all of them?

 

and yeah, I agree, being able to crush everything in my path in a matter of seconds would lead me to boredom.

[neKroMancer]

Gotta admit, that is a big contributing reason as to why I like to talk with ya like this so often. Always interesting. 

 

  You are right in saying 'Feels good' is pretty different from one guy to the other - but that doesn't mean you aren't going to fine that it is important to work on that 'Game feel'. Things need to feel solid, responsive. You need to get good feedback from the game for making big plays.

 

The Easy mode example in this situation, like usual, is Nova. It isn't any mystery how to get a massive multikill or huge damage at Nova. To just wind up and unleash hell on something with a satisfying 'pop'.

 

 I'm not really saying that feel is for everybody - it isn't, some people wont care for it - but it is there. Nova feels good.

 

 Vauban, Rhino and Loki do too, although in different ways each. But to be honest I find that pretty fantastic. I mean, that seems ideal right? Multiple frames that just feel good to use in the right situation.

 

 

 

 And about my whole shtick with 'It is time to patch the holes in enemy factions'. It really isn't about Nova, she just happens to be the first example everyone thinks of right now. This goes on into the future too. If DE takes the time to round out the enemy factions - to make sure that there are things existing in each of them that can potentially counteract powerful player tools the likes of MPrime or Invisibility - then it'll help far into the future. DE will be able to be slightly more extreme with ALL skills because the potential for the enemy factions to still be able to deal with the player is still there.

 

 The perfect situation would be to have every single instance of 'Counteractive measures' among the enemy faction be something that a little clever gameplay would counter act. If they could make avoiding your potential counter as simple as paying attention and changing your gameplan a bit on the fly then I think it is more or less mission accomplished.

 

 Will it fix all balance issues forever? Hell no. But it is long overdue DE did it and the benefit is enough that its worthwhile.

I agree that WF enemy factions are sorely lacking 'countermeasure' against players. They are helpless against Tenno's abilities. I also agree that AI improvement is long overdue (at least, DE is now looking for dedicate AI programmer). And, of course, we also lacking the AI with offensive abilities. Imo, with each type of power, we need at least one new unit/new ability for the AI to counter our power.

However, not everyone is going to enjoy the game more when DE finally solve this problem. As good as it sounds, AI improvement in ability will be a great challenge for players to cope with. The game will suddenly turn more tactical in stead of mindless killing. The recently mentioned 'captain' class AI from latest livestream will be the first iteration of more advanced enemy types. I'm extremely eager to see the community reaction with this addition. I'm doubtful that they'll be all positive about the change. Suddenly, someone piñata isn't going to be easily explode.

It also will bring more stuff into Scott's already overloaded plate of balance. He will have to find a point in which the game could be used as a balancing point.

However, given my experience with ME3MP, using better AI isn't a way to ignore balance from player's side. Adjustments will be inevitably made. Cycle of buff and nerf will continue even when the game finally reach released state. Right now, Frost is already on the chopping block from the recent thematic change of all frames. God mode is no longer acceptable. But I understand DE's delay on this part.

Frost is equal to the viability of Endless defense as a mode. They have to change the mode's gameplay to accommodate Snowglobe balance change.

[SilentCynic]

However, not everyone is going to enjoy the game more when DE finally solve this problem. As good as it sounds, AI improvement in ability will be a great challenge for players to cope with. The game will suddenly turn more tactical in stead of mindless killing. The recently mentioned 'captain' class AI from latest livestream will be the first iteration of more advanced enemy types. I'm extremely eager to see the community reaction with this addition. I'm doubtful that they'll be all positive about the change. Suddenly, someone piñata isn't going to be easily explode.

 

This hits the nail on the head. Most of the subtle nuances and tricks that certain frames and weapons provide become utterly worthless when one realizes that most of the content in Warframe can just be mindlessly blasted through with raw damage. No disadvantage, very little to check your advance. Someone will invariably, however, mention level 200 defense, but I think that attempting to balance the game according to such a tiny portion of the game's content is a deeply flawed concept.

[Luminati07]

Agreed.

The whole 'buff everything, nerf nothing' mentality is very narrow minded, and most of the time, very little thought goes into it.

 

To get rid of the monotony, DE needs to release weapons with new mechanics.

The whole aim and shoot business is getting old.

 

Charge weapons were step one.

Mine layers, timed detonations, proximity mines are some examples (although, all explosive) of mechanics that would go a LONG way in reducing weapon monotony.

[SilentCynic]

Agreed.

The whole 'buff everything, nerf nothing' mentality is very narrow minded, and most of the time, very little thought goes into it.

 

To get rid of the monotony, DE needs to release weapons with new mechanics.

The whole aim and shoot business is getting old.

 

Charge weapons were step one.

Mine layers, timed detonations, proximity mines are some examples (although, all explosive) of mechanics that would go a LONG way in reducing weapon monotony.

 

Not until the gameplay is fundamentally changed. Why use any of those tricks (Alright, maybe in defense) when you can annihilate your way through mobs like a tornado in a china store? Brute damage is the order of the day.

[Wallace24]

"If everyone's super, then no one is"

 

essentially

[Blatantfool]

I agree that WF enemy factions are sorely lacking 'countermeasure' against players. They are helpless against Tenno's abilities. I also agree that AI improvement is long overdue (at least, DE is now looking for dedicate AI programmer). And, of course, we also lacking the AI with offensive abilities. Imo, with each type of power, we need at least one new unit/new ability for the AI to counter our power.

However, not everyone is going to enjoy the game more when DE finally solve this problem. As good as it sounds, AI improvement in ability will be a great challenge for players to cope with. The game will suddenly turn more tactical in stead of mindless killing. The recently mentioned 'captain' class AI from latest livestream will be the first iteration of more advanced enemy types. I'm extremely eager to see the community reaction with this addition. I'm doubtful that they'll be all positive about the change. Suddenly, someone piñata isn't going to be easily explode.

It also will bring more stuff into Scott's already overloaded plate of balance. He will have to find a point in which the game could be used as a balancing point.

However, given my experience with ME3MP, using better AI isn't a way to ignore balance from player's side. Adjustments will be inevitably made. Cycle of buff and nerf will continue even when the game finally reach released state. Right now, Frost is already on the chopping block from the recent thematic change of all frames. God mode is no longer acceptable. But I understand DE's delay on this part.

Frost is equal to the viability of Endless defense as a mode. They have to change the mode's gameplay to accommodate Snowglobe balance change.

I think, at least to start, I'd love DE to just cover the really general stuff. To set up and say "Okay guys. This is how each faction will handle status effects/invis/shield skills"

There is no need for these enemies to absolutely stop players using that stuff - it'd just be something different or new for a player to have to handle. I'd hope it was real straightforward too. Easy to understand/spot if you know its something in play.

Easy example would be if the Grineer had an Elite Sniper unit that is likely to spawn when Invis is present in the squad. Their weapon damage would be respectable - but the real trick is that this sniper casts a laser sight when in combat, invisible players coming into contact with the beam are revealed and take healthy amount of damage. Considering it'd be a big red laser it wouldn't be too hard to dodge, which is good because it'd be in your best interest not to let it hit you.

Stuff like that.

As for how the community would react. Yeah. I gotta admit - that is one box of mysteries I'm interested to see peeled open. People often complain about the trivial difficulty. I'd love to see what'd happen if DE took some big strides to fixing that.

I'm glad you mentioned ME3MP by the way. That Multiplayer has a really healthy variety of enemies. I wish Warframe's three factions happened to work out that well. Not too hard but certainly capable of killing you. I loved that. I especially like fighting the Collectors because they look awesome.

"If everyone's super, then no one is"

essentially

[Won_Doe]

Nerfs limit choices.  Buffs give alternate choices.  More player choice == more player enjoyment.

 

 

That can work both ways. It's natural for players to lean towards stronger gear, even if said gear isn't exactly fun to use. When you tone down weapons and bring them in line with others, you create more variety for those players.

 

The worst and most common mentality that people take is that when something is nerfed, it becomes completely obsolete. People run to the forums before even bothering to properly test something after a nerf and are unable to give proper feedback.

 

Look at all the crying after the Swraith fix......completely embarassing.

[Blatantfool]

That can work both ways. It's natural for players to lean towards stronger gear, even if said gear isn't exactly fun to use. When you tone down weapons and bring them in line with others, you create more variety for those players.

 

The worst and most common mentality that people take is that when something is nerfed, it becomes completely obsolete. People run to the forums before even bothering to properly test something after a nerf and are unable to give proper feedback.

 

Look at all the crying after the Swraith fix......completely embarassing.

 

 I agree. Does work both ways.

 

 But about the whole player attitude towards nerfs. You kinda gotta take that with a grain of salt. A player only has to get badly burned by a nerf once for them to learn to hate having to deal with the fires of patch day. DE has overnerfed things once or twice before and people absolutely hated it. Doesn't help that when it comes to a concept like 'Was it overnerfed' it really depends on the person or people you're talking to.

[Won_Doe]

To get rid of the monotony, DE needs to release weapons with new mechanics.

The whole aim and shoot business is getting old.

 

Charge weapons were step one.

Mine layers, timed detonations, proximity mines are some examples (although, all explosive) of mechanics that would go a LONG way in reducing weapon monotony.

 

I'm surprised no one ever brings this up. I hate to say it but overall gunplay in this game feels a bit bland and unspectacular. The Miter was a nice introduction but because the blades move at such a slow pace, you get reduced to just spammy firing.

 

I don't think gadgets like mines have a place in Warframe but like you said, what's needed are weapons with new mechanics. There's way too much point'n'click on hitscan weapons and spray'n'pray with nonhitscan (Dera, Miter, Bolto, etc).

 

We know there's new weapons on the way but, how many more can they pump out til they start feeling absolutely redundant? Hind is an upgraded Burston. The Gremlins are just basic automatic dualies, and now we got a new Sniper/Shotgun/etc on the way.

 

Right now it seems that most people feel adding more weapons isn't the way to improve the game and it's simply because every weapon practically functions the same. 2ndary fire modes would be amazing. Do something to change up the gunplay rather than adding "upgraded" versions of currently existing weapons.