Space Ninjas Vs Space Wizards.

[Eisvogel]

Which games are you talking about?  I don't know of a single shooter game that does not equate difficulty with bullet sponge.  If other games are difficult compared to warframe is because they have clunky, plodding, sluggish game mechanics that try my patience, or troll stores/casinos.  ME3 MP is a prime example.

 

Are you really using M3 that's a SP based game? XD

 

And what does the bullet sponge crap have to do with game's being able to spam powers or not? Did you read before reply?

 

If games are difficult compared to Warframe, is because maybe they did things right like Dark Souls, indie Meatboy, Vindictus (at least before going full pay 2 win), etc

[Hayden11121]

Yeah, really.  Defense doesn't even matter after level 100 as it is. The fact it's endless is the same reason mod drops are random and certain mods take 2048 copies to max.

 

I've also defended a pod with just melee via Saryn and Rhino for 20 waves just fine.

 

By all means when L300 enemies start dropping warframe parts or exclusive guns or platinum you go ahead and drop me a line.

Oh because everything is about gaining a reward?

Just melee saryn and rhino? Proof please.

[Guest]

dont forget the

[ValhaHazred]

Or these guys.

They make the Tenno look like the most grounded down to earth ninjas ever.

[Hayden11121]

Or these guys.

They make the Tenno look like the most grounded down to earth ninjas ever.

You don't see those giant avatars every 2 seconds because they found some orbs on the ground...

[Hollow_Knight]

Thanks for the perspective ValhaHazred :D

 

Ok evidently I have made a mistake with my post.  I was not trying to incite the guns vs powers balance argument, I was more interested in the making a decision between the currently very static 'stand in snowglobe and spam powers/weapons' and what warframe seemed like when I first started out, which was more 'run, jump, slash and shoot'.

 

Keep it cordial everyone.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Hollow_Knight

[Estred]

"They were called Tenno. Warriors of blade and gun: masters of the Warframe armor."

 

AoE makes this game boring, I want to see more "Ninjaness" and less nuking ;) Nukes should be a last resort option, not something one can spam indefinitely. 

You haven't faced many 150 level enemies have you? Guns win out at high level. Powers are just aids at that point.

 

Level 1-40: Abilities are King you can slaughter almost indiscriminately

Level 41-80: Abilities start to fall off the powerful ones and CC ones still shine.

Level 81-120: Most damage powers in game fall off and only CC ones still work.

Level 121-150: CC abilities are about all you have it's all guns from here.

 

That is my experience so far. Even Nova doesn't obliterate Heavies at 120+ unless you spent ludicrous time farming up your mods, then maybe you can make her last till 140.

[matto]

I agree with this thread.

 

It's what makes me disappointed by Warframe. When I first watched the game's trailers, back in time, I was waiting this game for all the space ninja stuffs.

 

However, all new characters and ideas are turning into pure MMORPG style : elementalists, healers, necros. Those frames are based on abilites and not ninja gameplay, which is killing the fun in the game. Weapons are not the main battle system, became secondary.

 

Look at Nova. When you make a Defense, it's like having a map cleaner, getting all the targets, leaving a few to other players. When I play with novas, I have no choice but go ahead and Slash Dash (I play excal indeed) everything before her explosions. It works, I always get best results. But where is the fun in that ?

 

And the coming of Necro (GuildWars reminder), shows us that DE (and DC) made a clear choice.

 

We need more Warframes like Ash, Vauban, Excal, even Rhino is great.

 

Or DE should change something by nerfing all the massive skills, or making them harder to launch (more energy required?). I'm for the second idea.

 

If we have to wait to play in high level maps to have a gameplay that fits more with Warframe's universe...

 

That's why I asked for a popular vote organized by DE for a next Warframe, so the entire Warframe's universe could vote for the next Warframe among a choice of 2 or 3. I just hope it would be a battle between a magic frame and a ninja frame to see what people (and not just DC) want to play.

Edited August 27, 2013 by matto

[Estred]

Don't bring the DC into this. We had no say on Necro. They said they were continuing with him because it fit the Infested Theme update and it also was so close behind Nova in voting.

[matto]

Damn guys, stop being hyper sensitive everytime DC is mentionned...

 

You had the opportunity to vote, right?

 

Berzerker, Hawk, Earth were the alternative choices.

 

I don't blame DC for the choice they made. I just say, DC also shows clearly what they are expecting from DE in matter of frames/gameplay/design.

 

I just say one thing : DC may be representative of what players of Warframe are expecting in the future.

Edited August 27, 2013 by matto

[rksk16it]

You haven't faced many 150 level enemies have you? Guns win out at high level. Powers are just aids at that point.

 

Level 1-40: Abilities are King you can slaughter almost indiscriminately

Level 41-80: Abilities start to fall off the powerful ones and CC ones still shine.

Level 81-120: Most damage powers in game fall off and only CC ones still work.

Level 121-150: CC abilities are about all you have it's all guns from here.

 

That is my experience so far. Even Nova doesn't obliterate Heavies at 120+ unless you spent ludicrous time farming up your mods, then maybe you can make her last till 140.

 

No, guns dont win out, actually they lose past level 200-250. After that there is actually a power which can still kill everything within seconds including all kinds of heavies : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/99423-saryns-venom-the-problem-and-possible-fixes/

[_daVinci_]

Everyone was complaining about vauban when vauban came out, now everyone is complaining about nova.  When the next frame comes out everyone will complain about them.

 

 

Fact is people don't like change even though change is often good. 

[Estred]

No, guns dont win out, actually they lose past level 200-250. After that there is actually a power which can still kill everything within seconds including all kinds of heavies : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/99423-saryns-venom-the-problem-and-possible-fixes/

Well to be fair I haven't experienced lvl 200 because I feel it's a waste of time. Why go to regions of the game where it wasn't designed for and is simply ran by entirely automated mathematical algorithms?

[Ageless_Emperion]

Warframe's big hook (as far as the ads I keep seeing suggest) is the whole running, jumping, slashing, shooting 'space-ninja' gameplay that it promises (and indeed delivers on).  With that being said I feel that the game is fast becoming more of a space-wizards thing, given that my sword, rifle, pistol, shotgun, fists, etc. are all completely insignificant against the power of the [4] key.

 

Not to say that this is inherently a bad thing, I still have huge fun in warframe playing the more power orientated classes or, when the mood takes me, switching back to a more martial frame for some good old fashioned slicing and dicing.  But I am continually faced with the fact that whilst swords and guns are still fun to use, they're just a back-up now.  And even some frames have started to become obsolete, not because they're incapable of dealing with the content, but just because they can't blitz it as fast, or as easily.  

 

I believe this is what most people refer to as 'power creep'.  And as it stands, a player using a frame powered up for maximum AoE can clear multiple rooms in seconds, and with the addition of the aura mods (particularly energy siphon) it's now much easier to squeeze maximum power-effectiveness out of a warframe without having to go through 3 or 4 forma cycles.

 

Still instead of doing the 3000 word essay on the in-depth mechanics of the game and practically necessitating a TL:DR summation, I'd rather pose a question:

 

Do you think DE should pursue the more power-focused gameplay, with AoE as king?  Or try to focus more on the gun- and sword-play, with the powers very much as a back-up?  Or some sort of middle ground?  All suggestions welcome...

 

I use my powers as a backup to my arsenal and so do many people I know, in fact I own a frost who has been extensively formad to have one ability slot which doesnt use the 4 key. Only a few abilities in the game come close to the kind of sustained devastation a lot of my guns can output so quite honestly this sounds like a personal problem to me.

 

Btw that group of people that went to wave 190 in infested defense didnt rely on abilities to kill the lvl 1500 enemies...just saying.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ageless_Emperion

[Wiegraf]

Somehow, I come to the belief that the Warframe's abilities should complement your playstyle, not define it entirely.

[Llokii]

 

 

If I see Ember in my team I really think I'm in world of warcraft.

 

I love my Ember, but yeah, WoF totally makes me think of this...

 

[rksk16it]

Well to be fair I haven't experienced lvl 200 because I feel it's a waste of time. Why go to regions of the game where it wasn't designed for and is simply ran by entirely automated mathematical algorithms?

 

Because maybe I dont agree with "design" ... I actually find it a waste of time playing first few waves of xini only to have a nova (or rhino, saryn etc) in team to press 4-4-4-4 or few ppl with ogris one shotting everything. I want to actually "play a game", not to "watch a movie".

 

Btw that group of people that went to wave 190 in infested defense didnt rely on abilities to kill the lvl 1500 enemies...just saying.

 

And they said it took 5-6 hours... just saying. Shooting enemies caught within a bastille for hours is impressive.

Edited August 27, 2013 by rksk16it

[FunkDoctaSpock]

"AoE makes this game boring, I want to see more "Ninjaness" and less nuking ;) Nukes should be a last resort option, not something one can spam indefinitely."

You haven't faced many 150 level enemies have you? Guns win out at high level. Powers are just aids at that point.

 

Level 1-40: Abilities are King you can slaughter almost indiscriminately

Level 41-80: Abilities start to fall off the powerful ones and CC ones still shine.

Level 81-120: Most damage powers in game fall off and only CC ones still work.

Level 121-150: CC abilities are about all you have it's all guns from here.

 

That is my experience so far. Even Nova doesn't obliterate Heavies at 120+ unless you spent ludicrous time farming up your mods, then maybe you can make her last till 140.

You haven't read my other posts have you ? And again, someone putting words in someone elses mouth. This is becoming a bad habit on these forums. And try to understand better what you read too. The fact I state nukes shouldn't be spammable clearly points to the fact I feel, like you, they should be there to aid but not as a primary option.

 

Who cares what level you play at in defense, not everyone only enjoys that part of the game. And yes, vs 130+ lvl enemies CC is your best friend. For obvious reasons you can't balance the game around INFINITE defense, there will always be a ceiling at which everything ceases to be efficient at all at these high levels the way armor scales. The ninja theme is supposed to be at the core of this game, and for some of us, it has some importance that it remains this way. When one aspect of the game overshadows every other aspect of the game, it needs to be looked into and remedied.

[KaneTheDark]

"AoE makes this game boring, I want to see more "Ninjaness" and less nuking ;) Nukes should be a last resort option, not something one can spam indefinitely."

 

When one aspect of the game overshadows every other aspect of the game, it needs to be looked into and remedied.

Because maybe I dont agree with "design" ... I actually find it a waste of time playing first few waves of xini only to have a nova (or rhino, saryn etc) in team to press 4-4-4-4 or few ppl with ogris one shotting everything. I want to actually "play a game", not to "watch a movie".

 

 

These folks hit the nail right on the head. For the record, I usually play as vauban on defense. I stay by the pod and spam bastille because i know the majority of the people will run around using ults trying to get the most kills. Call me crazy but I actually enjoy using my weapons, especially the ones i spent time & forma on. To have them be made insignificant due to a flawed design is really a shame.

[Estred]

Because maybe I dont agree with "design" ... I actually find it a waste of time playing first few waves of xini only to have a nova (or rhino, saryn etc) in team to press 4-4-4-4 or few ppl with ogris one shotting everything. I want to actually "play a game", not to "watch a movie".

That is fine. I don't knock anyone who enjoys spending hours on one mission. I personally have only ever gone between waves 30-40 and it was some time ago. I usually find that most groups fall apart after 20 so I don't go past since I usually just do pick-ups. I have much more fun on T3 Defense to be fair.

 

I do know this, damage ultimate aside. If the cut the drop rates of Energy then more people will Forma into Energy Siphon polarities or just run it. People have grown accustomed to energy-overload, you can see this with how much people detest the No Energy mode in Nightmare (granted it also removes Shields and there is little way to increase HP). Even CC Frames rely intensely on an overload of Energy orbs. Frost can't keep a globe up forever without there being tons of orbs and neither can Vauban.

 

So what are the DPS-Frames supposed to do with all that energy? Sit on it? Perhaps they are supposed to have weaker abilities because it's "trivializing" content to use their DPS-Abilities. Maybe Damage-Skills need Global Cooldowns because we know how well those work (they actually work alright when used properly but usually have very bad backlash in certain situations).

 

Games need to be Imbalanced, but an organized kind  of imbalance. If everything was "balanced" so to speak then nothing would be better than anything else. To give an extreme example.

 

Braton = Ogris

Skana = Orthos

Lato = Acrid

 

That would be true "Balance" just the Ogris would be more flavored in that it does AE damage, albeit Lower Damage to each target than the Braton does to one target.

 

Everything would be side-grades at best and no Warframe would offer anything another frame doesn't. For those who like using guns and not so much relying on abilities (though they do rely on Abilities just the CC/Defense ones) there is the option to go to Wave 140. For those of us who do not enjoy spending 5 hours on one mission we can just stop at Wave 30.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Estred