Things I Learned In Warframe Builder Today: Whacky Mods

[ThePresident777]

I had typed up a nice post with details then accidentally erased it.  I'm just going to have to get to the point now.

 

Speed Trigger > Piercing Caliber ( on a ~95% piercing damage weapon) >> (Cryo Rounds = Wild Fire = Stormbringer = Etc.) >>> (Magazine Warp = Fast Hands) >> Tainted Clip, in terms of raw DPS.

 

Complexities aside, that relationship holds, and that relationship and it's effect is what I wish to discuss here.  The relative costs/benefit between them are all over the place, but, that is not what interests me here.  Forma makes all that not so important.

 

Speed Trigger, Magazine Warp, Fast Hands, and Tainted Clip effect the feel of the weapon and it's effectiveness regardless of what you are shooting at, regardless of the targets defenses, regardless if the target is a wall or not.  They determine the ratio between time spent firing and time not spent firing.  If you do not like reloading then you can use Magazine Warp or Fast Hands to reduce the number of times you have to reload or the amount of time it takes to reload.  If you like reloading, you can use speed trigger to increase how often you have to reload.  Such choices are inherently arbitrary and personal.  Individuals should make them for themselves and the game should provide them with the freedom to do so.

 

However, that is not the case in Warframe because those mods also determine the effectiveness of the weapon and are not equally effective.  So, in Warframe, for no discernable reason, a more effective weapon always entails more reload times.  This is arbitrary.  It is possible to make all these mods equally impact the effectiveness of weapons while letting the player choose how their weapon will feel.

 

The same situation occurs between Damage mods on the one hand  vs Speed Trigger, Magazine Warp, Fast Hands, and Tainted Clip on the other.  The player has arbitrarily limited choice in how they can make their weapon feel while being effective.  The player has to choose between the effectiveness of the weapon and the feel of the weapon.  Their only choice is more DPS plus more reloads vs. less DPS plus default feel of the weapon vs. the lowest DPS plus fewer reloads plus(or) shorter reloads.

 

I don't see why players should be limited like this.  DPS and weapon feel are two different things that can be arranged so that the player does not have to choose between them or have the choices made for them.

 

The problem occurs between weapons as well, as I have previously attempted to convey.

 

I hope that DE will resolve this issue so that the players can have more choice, more fun, and more convenience.

Edited December 26, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Kurrumitsumi]

warframe builder isnt entirely accurate

[Azure.M]

If you do not like reloading then you can use Magazine Warp or Fast Hands to reduce the number of times you have to reload or the amount of time it takes to reload.  If you like reloading, you can use speed trigger to increase how often you have to reload.  Such choices are inherently arbitrary and personal.  Individuals should make them for themselves and the game should provide them with the freedom to do so.

 

However, that is not the case in Warframe because those mods also determine the effectiveness of the weapon and are not equally effective.  So, in Warframe, for no discernable reason, a more effective weapon always entails more reload times.  This is arbitrary.  It is possible to make all these mods equally impact the effectiveness of weapons while letting the player choose how their weapon will feel.

 

I don't think anybody likes having to reload more -.-

Speed Trigger is a good increase in DPS, but it has the downsides of increased ammo consumption and having to reload more. That's a choice you have to decide whether it's worth it, like a Corrupted mod. If Speed Trigger and Magazine Warp were equally effective for DPS then Magazine Warp would just be plain better because Speed Trigger makes you run out of ammo more quickly. I don't see how this is a personal opinion thing at all.

[ThePresident777]

Warframe Builder's accuracy is besides the point because it is accurate to a sufficient degree.  The issue involves quite a few mods.  So, the severity is significant.

[ThePresident777]

My point is that there should be variety in how you reach a certain DPS.  There is no benefit I can see to a game being so narrow that it's accurate to refer to it as ReloadFrame or NoAmmoFrame or InactiveFrame or WatchingPrettyMuralsDryFrame, for instance. 

 

Running out of ammo is a terrible idea.  And DE knows this.  That's why ammo is abundant.  But, even if you do run out of ammo, you switch to another equally effective gun.

 

Only a few people would want ammo to run out.  DE should make a special mission for them, so they can be happy.

 

Firing Time Ratio is a personal decision, just ask the players who like Tigris as is and do not want to see a reload time decrease.  They like the suspense of having to watch their magazines to avoid being stuck reloading under attack.   It's a risk reward ratio they enjoy and choose to play with.  It's a matter of play style and it should not be tied to DPS as it is now, as always entailing inferior DPS.

Edited December 26, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Katinka]

A gun that fires faster will always have higher DPS than a gun that fires slower unless you change the damage per bullet.  If you want a gun that fires slow but hits hard over a gun that fires fast but hits light then you have to choose a different gun I'm afraid as Speed Trigger will never be nerfed to reduce per shot damage for consistent DPS and only be about the feel of the weapon.  Speed Trigger is actually a more complex mod than I think a lot of people realise.  It does increase DPS and it will also increase status procs per second but it doesn't improve ammo efficiency in th eway some other mods do.

 

One thing to bear in mind is how mods combine.  Many mods boost the effectiveness of your weapon in ways that multiply while others add.  It is best to have two mods that multiply over two that add.  For example, Heavy Calibur is good but you will always take Serration first as it has no accuracy loss, is easier to get and easier to rank.  Once you have Serration you can add Heavy Calibur or you can add elementals/multishot.  The elemental or multishot mods will give greater DPS because of how they interact with Serration.  Alone Heavy Calibur would beat Hellfire but alongside Serration, Hellfire gives more (in raw damage, not factoring target weakness).

[Azure.M]

My point is that there should be variety in how you reach a certain DPS.  There is no benefit I can see to a game being so narrow that it's accurate to refer to it as ReloadFrame or OutAmmoFrame or InactiveFrame or WatchingPrettyMuralsDryFrame, for instance.  I get the impression that the OP wasn't read very well.

 

You don't have to use Speed Trigger, you know. I pretty much only use it on charge weapons to speed up the charge time. If you use it you obviously think the little increase in DPS (compared to putting a straight damage mod in that slot) is worth playing ReloadFrame and OutAmmoFrame so wanting to get that same boost for free is just greedy.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Azure.M

[OverlordMcGeek]

There should be some event mods like hush+splitchamber or something. I would love that utility would get looked at by DE and help us with maybe utility exclusive slots.

[ThePresident777]

If you want to maximize your DPS, you do have to use speed trigger.  Try it in Warframe Builder.

 

And that is not a situation that appears acceptable to me because it appears as an arbitrary reduction of player choice.  It's making some play styles more effective than others for no reason I can think of.

 

This happens in Warframe in a variety of ways via the particulars of the mods, the guns, the warframes, etc.  I think it would be a positive outcome if some means to faclitate more play styles, more choice for the player were implemented.  Some of it may involve sand boxing (missions as one example), some perhaps not.

[Azure.M]

If you want to maximize your DPS, you do have to use speed trigger.  Try it in Warframe Builder.

 

And that is not a situation that appears acceptable to me because it appears as an arbitrary reduction of player choice.  It's making some play styles more effective than others for no reason I can think of.

 

This happens in Warframe in a variety of ways via the particulars of the mods, the guns, the warframes, etc.  I think it would be a positive outcome if some means to faclitate more play styles, more choice for the player were implemented.  Some of it may involve sand boxing (missions as one example), some perhaps not.

 

Maximising your DPS at the expense of usability IS A CHOICE, and that's a balance you have to strike when modding. If your gun runs out of ammo in 2 seconds and you can't actually use it then theoretical DPS numbers are completely irrelevant.

Reloading more often and reloading less often are not "play styles".

If you make every mod the same that does not actually increase choice because all the choices are the same.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Azure.M

[ThePresident777]

Trading off DPS vs. Being Able To Use The Weapon is a terrible choice in my opinion because it makes the player choose between action and inaction in an action game.  That is the same reason why running out of stamina sucks and why Stamina mechanism is a waste as far am I'm concerned.  It's about as interesting a choice as playing or not playing the game.  Warframe, the game designed to be played, or not.  Doesn't sound like a good choice to me.

 

The effect on players of making them choose Damage or No Damage is that they will play against lower level enemies where this problem does not occur.  This forces yet more arbitrary decisions because the enemies offense and defense are both controlled by level and proportional.  So, playing against a lower level enemy means that you will now have more defense than you want so your glass cannon isn't as glassy as you want.  It could mean killing things faster than you want because the enemies have less defense.  It means more arbitrarily imposed decisions on the player, less variety.

 

Worse is that the enemies would be less rewarding, less affinity, inferior drops, all because the player chooses to play the game how they like instead of skulking around scrounging ammo.  Then the same people who want ammo to be precious and rewards to scale with level, will be complaining that everyone is using Loki Prime.  Of course everyone will be using Loki Prime, it's the most effective means to the one size fits all situation they created.

 

The choice between More Firing Time and Less Firing Time is a play style when the DPS is equal in both cases.  And, as I explained, it gives players a feeling of suspense that some of them like.  Games are played by people, so they should be designed for them.

 

Making all mods equal in terms of DPS is not making them all the same when they can impact other factors, especially when those factors are a matter of taste, or play style, such as Firing Time.  Making things objectively equal and leaving subjectivity entirely a matter of choice is maximizing choice for players, not reducing it.

 

And, since setting particular objective limits are a matter of opinion, sand boxes are useful.

Edited December 23, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Azure.M]

I can handle T4 just fine without using Speed Trigger.
You're a founder and you didn't even notice this was a "problem" until today so it's obviously not that vital that you get the absolute maximum possible DPS.

I think the point you're actually trying to get to with all this is that utility mods mostly aren't worth using? Which is fine, that's true and it's a problem, but you don't need to be silly about it.

[Janzer]

Yep, and this extends to Archwing mods. Explain to me anyone, why these mods have different values:

 

11 points, 120% damage added

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Venomous_Clip

 

9 points, 120% damage added

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Electrified_Barrel

 

9 points, 120% damage added

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Combustion_Rounds

 

So why is Venomous Clip 11 points instead of 9 like the other two? Are there more weapons that have a D polarity perhaps? Nope.

 

Imperator has a V and Corvas has a -

 

So why that one mod with a D polarity? And Archwing is still really light on mods and weapons. Why start out on the wrong foot? I'm starting to wonder if the mod cards just randomly generate a polarity when it comes to adding a polarity or not. Rng on whether it gets a polarity, rng on what that polarity is perhaps?

[ThePresident777]

That was another issue I was going to bring up, the drain cost benefit ratio.  Although, forma kinda fixes that.

[Bobtm]

I am going to try and make this as clear as I possibly can now.

 

Quit focusing so heavy handedly on DPS as the sole metric of all things in existence.

 

Seriosly, you're drudging up issues where there aren't any to be had in any concievably appropriate manner.

 

I can handle T4 just fine without using Speed Trigger.
You're a founder and you didn't even notice this was a "problem" until today so it's obviously not that vital that you get the absolute maximum possible DPS.

I think the point you're actually trying to get to with all this is that utility mods mostly aren't worth using? Which is fine, that's true and it's a problem, but you don't need to be silly about it.

 

Azure here covered things pretty much perfectly, but I'm still gonna elaborate (or just prattle on) a bit further on the matter here.  Of course there's been a very long time issue with utility mods just being pointless but this isn't what you're getting at, so sadly this can't end here.

 

DPS is effectively irrelevant in many cases, especially in a game such as this.  Here, the ability to kill targets in rapid succession is king, and DPS alone won't account for such a thing.  Throwing Speed Trigger on something, sure that'll increase your DPS, but will it actually aid you in the long run?  Not always, not even half the time realistically.  Fire rate becomes irrelevent when the actual kill times of individual targets with and without it are taken into consideration, especially so when you take into account all of the factors.

_________

 

Too much choice creates pointless choices, making everything effectively irrelevant.  Games have rules and locks on how things change, the rigid nature of them allows for the creation of actually meaningfull choices.  There isn't a way to stop firerate from increasing DPS unless you make a terribly broken system that has no place existing in any game worth being called a game.

[Sloan441]

RoF mods are very significant contributors to DPS. Just the way of it. They do come with some disadvantages in QoL, however (you can potentially run out of ammo a lot more quickly). It's a choice you make when setting up the weapon.

 

As pointed out, DPS isn't everything, but it is important as a metric (particularly as it's the only one we have). One always has to keep in mind what you're trying to accomplish when configuring weapons. If you're primarily using a weapon to run invasions on Mars, you don't need to go full retard on DPS. If you're looking at killing tough enemies as quickly as possible, then it becomes important--assuming you aren't running out of ammo constantly, but even that can be dealt with.

 

What RoF mods do for you in actual gameplay is decrease dwell time on individual targets. You spend less time dealing with each target, which is important to reduce your exposure to what they might do and also to keep things like O2 drops rolling in survivals. This is balanced by ammo consumption if you're stumbling into overkill on individual mobs (shooting them too much, in other words).

 

I don't see a problem with the mods. It's a balancing act for the player and this is always important in RPGs (and, yes, this game is an RPG--ARPG to be specific).

[Koler93]

warframe builder isnt entirely accurate

But you have there 100x more information about abilities and weapons than you have in warframe arsenal UI.

I mean you can see how mod can effect this weapon, calculated DPS on all possible factions with multishot crit/status chance, information about their power/range of all abilites and how mods affects them. Basically everything.

And in warframe we got super cool abilities tab which practically doesnt give you any information about them.

According to OP. I checked warframe builder now and all mods you mentioned affects DPS.

The problem is that most of the community look on Burst DPS instead of sustained DPS.

Burst DPS is calculated by simply dividing damage dealt on full wind up by time. It shows you how high is the DPS when you pull the trigger.

Sustained DPS is calculated by dividing the damage you deal by a much longer time period. It include such thing like magazine size and reload time

This is the real indicator about true weapon DPS instead of burst DPS.

Basically i always prefer more DPS in shorter time period than low dps but with big mag size. I always put Ammo mutation on all weapons and then mod them to get highest DPS. Magazine size doesnt matter that much when you are in combat, reload time is bigger problem. If you use supra it simply takes you 3 sek to empty your magazine clip and forever to reload.

And let be honest would you really use ammo drum/ magazine warp on your weapon ?

when you have those +60% status mods/ multishot/ elemental dmg mods ?

If those mods could provide you something more like ammo drum with 100% increased ammo/magazine warp with 70% increased clip size

maybe they could be usefull and someone would use them. But in current form noone will ever  use them.

 

[InvaderMEEN]

You're forgetting that Speed Trigger makes you much more likely to waste ammo on a Nullifier Shield or overkill your target (thus wasting ammo). It has it's trade-offs.

I do agree that magazine size mods need a buff (currently the only place they are good in is Archwing mode).

Edited December 25, 2014 by InvaderMEEN

[fatpig84]

On paper DPS Speed Trigger or the new kid on the block Vile Acceleration gives you impressive figures

 

 

But that does not count into....

 

1) Your ammo reserves (aka usability issues)

2) the possible DPS if someone uses shred/Auger/Seeker/Seeking Force on his gun

3) And wasted shots.

 

A gun with punch through mods will always easily double their DPS.

This game is a horde game remember ?

 

You know Void def ? Where the enemies are channel through that tiny main door down to the corridor ?

A guy with Punch through can easily nail 3 to 4 enemies in a straight line.

 

Practically quadrupling his on paper DPS.

That is why the Boltor Prime is so effective, it can pin and drag the dead guy down a line and hurt everything else behind it. Even then as the level gets higher, the Boltor Prime won't be able to kill enemies fast enough for reliably crowd DPS via pinning. That is why my Boltor Prime still has Shred equipped.

 

So not only do shots that hit the main target still punch through and hit the other baddies behind. I still have the potential of pinning the main target once he is dead, thus dealing extra damage down the line as well.

 

Does Warframe builder calculate that ?

Definitely no.

 

 

A guy with a Soma prime and Vile Acceleration will get HUEG DPS numbers, but half the time his shots are getting blocked by the dead target's corpse as well. Thus wasting ammo and over killing for no reason.

 

Does Warframe builder take into account for this ?

Well nope.

Edited December 25, 2014 by fatpig84

[ThePresident777]

When trade offs vs. DPS are claimed, are those trade offs taken into account?  I don't see any cases being made for trade offs vs. DPS.  Claims are being made that amount to stating that something unaccountable is worth trading off versus something accountable, something subjective vs. something objective.  DPS is objective.  It's just high school algebra. 

 

But, the trade offs vs. DPS are not being calculated at all and their acceptance is a matter of taste.  Opposition is proposing in this thread that rather than have the means to satisfy a variety of subjective tastes, within the theme of the game, it is better for the game to arbitrarily accommodate a narrow subjective taste, depriving players of choice and DE of customers, instead of mulitple subjective tastes, when the theme of the game could accomodate a variety of choices.

 

I do not think that is an acceptable design philosophy for a game.  I think choice serves all parties better than not choice, as long as those choices conform to the theme of the game.

 

If player A accepts choice 1 and rejects choice 2, and player B accepts choice 2 and rejects choice 1, neither player is harmed, they are both benefited, and so is the game developer, even though a player might argue that the game should not include the individual choices he has rejected.

 

It is incumbent on the game developer to see the benefit of choice and interpret the players preferences as choices, even though the players fail to do so themselves and express their preferences as absolutes.

[DSpite]

My point is that there should be variety in how you reach a certain DPS.  There is no benefit I can see to a game being so narrow that it's accurate to refer to it as ReloadFrame or NoAmmoFrame or InactiveFrame or WatchingPrettyMuralsDryFrame, for instance. 

 

Running out of ammo is a terrible idea.  And DE knows this.  That's why ammo is abundant.  But, even if you do run out of ammo, you switch to another equally effective gun.

 

Only a few people would want ammo to run out.  DE should make a special mission for them, so they can be happy.

 

Firing Time Ratio is a personal decision, just ask the players who like Tigris as is and do not want to see a reload time decrease.  They like the suspense of having to watch their magazines to avoid being stuck reloading under attack.   It's a risk reward ratio they enjoy and choose to play with.  It's a matter of play style and it should not be tied to DPS.

 

Actually the point should be that enemies should be more then a point in space with a number of health attached to it, that we use a number reducing gun on.

 

Borderlands manages to put together a bunch of stuff that is funny and fun to fight and still make them dangerous enough that they require players to be careful even when facing enemies far below the player levels.

 

No one really puts utility mods on guns because as someone pointed out in another thread "in Warframe, making things dead is superior to all other methods of dealing with them", and in 99% of cases, they are correct.

 

We will keep running totally invisible through missions that have a high payout for completion but no rewards for killing things, and we will keep putting 6 Forma in guns for missions where exterminating everything while running at top speed is the mission objective.

 

We should not AIM at getting "DPS" we should be aiming at loadouts that fit the mission, and the missions should be varied enough to make us think about loadouts, and not just "bring more DPS".

 

If this will ever happen or not is another story though, as Warframe is pretty much a fast action shooter. All I am saying is that in Borderlands at least, players do tend to switch weapon types a lot more to fit the enemy, rather then having a one-tricked-up-pony weapon, even when they have Artifacts in their backpacks.

[--MZez--]

i dont trust wf builder

[Sloan441]

And there's still a Flat Earth Society.

[ThePresident777]

This is a thread about weapon mods.  Points about enemies or flat earths should be made in threads about enemies or flat earths.

Edited January 1, 2015 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

Warframe Builder is not perfect.  But, regardless, you can see what I'm taking about by just looking at the DPS formula: 

 

[1 + (Crit Mutli - 1) * Crit Chance] * Damage Per Round / (Charge Time + (Reload Time / Magazine) + 1/(Rate of Fire))

 

If the reload time is 1 second then magazine mods are just as effective as rate of fire mods on bonus point by bonus point basis.  Magazine mods in Warframe all provide less bonus than rate of fire mods.

 

If the reload time is less than 1 second then magazine mods are more effective than rate of fire mods.

Edited December 26, 2014 by ThePresident777