Azamagon's Warframe Rebalancing - Saryn

[Azamagon]

This is the fifth thread from my new series of Warframe rebalancing threads. This time, Saryn is up for improvements. I have already done rebalancing for each Warframe (wether it is up to date or still in my head :P), most of it written down in here: https://forums.warfr...second-edition/ (Note: That thread got archived, so I can no longer edit it)

 

However, as huge and thorough threads like that often gets ignored, I thought of posting each one individually so they (hopefully) get seen. Saryn could certainly need some improvements, as many of her abilities lack finesse or anything "special" about them.

 

Stats:

I think the tanky stats are just fine, no need to change anything really.

 

Overall theme:

Toxicbased melee/caster/tank hybrid with main emphasis on being ELUSIVE. My vision (and I guess, DE's too, at least somewhat) is a form of tank/damageoriented Warframe that inflicts her damage over time and with "tankiness" not being a traditional one, but more of an elusive and durable one. So, my emphasis has been on making her an elusive and sustainable tank, with damage over time and positionbased attacks

 

Abilities:

Her abilities are a bit weird as they are bit all over the place. Yes, they are kinda versatile, but they have very split functions, with slightly lacking synergy (not the worst though). For example: Venom is absolutely useless on lower levels, while Molt and Miasma work the best on lower levels. Contagion is only really useful for boosting thrown melee weapons (such as the Glaive) as she is not elusive / tanky enough to make good use of melee weapons up close, at least not on higher levels.

So, most emphasis on her abilities has been on adding an elusive and lifesustaining kind of tankiness, with some CC additions and trying to make all her abilities useful on both lower levels and higher levels.

 

- Venom -

- Contagion / "Toxic Spore" - (Seriously, the name needs swapping/changing for sure)

This ability is a bit annoying to use as it is. On top of that, It is pretty much useless on low level missions. So additions to make it easier and faster to use plus more useful on lower levels have been made:

* Now castable while moving, without stopping your movement (no brief "halt"), nor without interrupting your reload

* Upon cast, you place one quite big spore anywhere you aim (Yes, anywhere, even on Friends, Cryopods etc)!

* Any enemy that are within a certain range (say up to 5 metres or so) of the spore, suffers damage over time and is slowed down for as long as they remain within the area of the spore. Damage is 20/30/40/50 Viral damage per second, lasts 8/10/12/14 seconds and slows down by 10/15/20/25%. This "aura" could be displayed by some kind of gas-cloud (not visually obstructing) around the spore.

* Shooting, meleeing or casting a damaging ability which hits the spore causes it to pop and explode. This explosion causes enemies within the explosionradius to become staggered, or maybe even stunned for a couple of seconds (up to 4 seconds or so?) and suffer some instant damage (say 25/50/75/100 viral damage) and also cause the targets caught by the explosion to suffer from the same DoT and slowdown like the placed spore did, however, this DoT and slowdown STICKS to the targets caught in the explosion, like a debuff. This explosion is much bigger in radius than the normal radius as well (8/10/12/14 meters). The duration of the sticky debuff is equal to the remaining time of the exploded stationary spore, +3 seconds more. (Note: This explosion does NOT place any new spores on the affected targets anymore, it just debuffs them)

* The spore automatically also explodes if its duration timer runs out. If it is applied to a target, the spore does NOT automatically explode if the target dies. It would then simply fall to the ground and attach itself to whatever new surface it touches.

* Note that, due to being placeable anywhere, the spore can be on your Molt too! The Molt will not be hurt by the spore poison of course. If the Molt dies while there is still a spore on it, the spore WILL explode on its death, due to the Molt having its Toxic explosion upon its death (which is an attack, hitting the spore, causing it to pop)

* EDIT: Further idea - Instead of relying on getting Viral procs (it now has 0% chance ot proc Viral), this ability could instead have its own reliable health-reducer. For as long as an enemy suffers from the DoT, it also has its current maximum health reduced by 4/6/8/10%! This could stack with regular Viral procs, multiplicatively.

Power Strength - Increases DoT damage, spore explosion damage and slowdown power (New for spore explosion and slowdown!) EDIT: And possibly also the health-reduction effect!
Power Range - Increases castrange and the AoE radius of both the spore and the explosion (Same as now)
Power Duration - Increases spore (and thus also debuff) duration (Same as now)

 

Recastable mid-duration?

Yes, with no limit to how many spores can be created! (And thus, no limit to how many enemies can be affected at once!

 

- Molt -

Molt is not that bad, but the changes to it was not what was really needed (the poison explosion), even if not a bad addition. I'll keep that on it, as well as give it some other changes to make it truly worthwhile to use, and keep its new higher (50) energy cost:

* Upon cast, not only does it place a Molt decoy, it also:

1) Removes all debuffs from Saryn (Note: It only clears non-incapacitating debuffs, meaning, it removes stuff like being on fire, slowed by ice, being poisoned etc, but you can't remove being stunned or knocked down) and also copies whatever buff Saryn might've had when she cast Molt!

2) AND also grants you a very shortlasting invisibility (Say, 1,5 / 2 / 2,5 / 3 seconds)!

* The poison-explosion that occurs upon death/timeout/recasting Molt can remain, but is not necessary to keep imo. (I'll suggest to keep it for now though)

* Should no longer clip with your camera (Stand still and cast Molt, and you will know what i mean)

* No longer blocks yours or your allies' attacks (your attacks should pass through it!)

* You and your allies can walk through the Molt!

* As said on Venom Contagion, the spore can be cast onto Molt now as well, making it a more potent "poison mine" that attracts enemies towards it!

* As said on Contagion Venom Shroud further down, if you cast Molt after your buff yourself with that ability, the Molt will also get the buff!

Power Strength - Increases damage of poison-explosion, the Molt's health and shield amounts as well as Molt's health and shield regeneration values (New for regen!)
Power Range - Increases poison-explosion radius and the Molt decoy's aggroradius (New!)
Power Duration - Increases Molt decoy duration and invisibility duration (New for invisibility)

 

Recastable mid-duration?

Yes, but recasting it removes the previously placed one (which also means, it won't explode with damage, no?).

 

- Contagion -

- Venom Shroud -

This ability is INCREDIBLY lackluster as it is now. The only really good useage of it is to buff your Glaive/Kestrel, due to their range. So, let's make this more useful:

* Grants 30/60/90/120% (up from 25/40/60/75%) melee Toxin bonus, but this probably shouldn't combine with your weapon's elements into new combos (so, if you only have Heat in your weapon for example, it does NOT become Gas). It's just Toxin-damage added seperately.)

* Whenever Saryn damages a target in melee with this poison, 2% (could be increased if it is too low) of the poison damage done heals Saryn's health (always heals a minimum of 1 health on each attack)!

* In addition, Saryn also covers herself with a defensive coat of venom (hence the name Venom Shroud). This coat causes any enemy that attacks Saryn when within a range of 3/4/5/6 meters from her (doesn't matter wether it is a melee or ranged attack, they just have to be within that range), to become paralyzed for 1,5 / 2 / 2,5 / 3 seconds + that attack they were trying to attack Saryn with, will be NULLIFIED, dealing no damage to Saryn at all! Each enemy can only be paralyzed once per Venom Shroud cast. (Paralyzed works similarly to freezing a target, they are just placed "on hold" until it wears off).

* Special note: if you have Venom Shroud active and cast Molt, the Molt also gets the Venom Shroud buff, thus allowing it to paralyze its attackers as well!

* Visual note: There could be a circle surrounding Saryn (a poisonlike one) which display the paralyzation activation-range.

Power Strength - Increases Toxin bonus damage (Same as now) (Note: This indirectly increases the leeching effect!)
Power Range - Increases paralyzation range (New!)
Power Duration - Increases buff and paralyzation duration (New for paralyzation)

 

Recastable mid-duration?

Yes, refreshing the buff on Saryn + allowing each enemy to become paralyzable once more

 

- Miasma -

Miasma is one of Saryn's better abilities, however, it is kind of dull (a regular AoE DoT-nuke with a stun). So, let's see the changes/additions I propose:

* When cast, two things are created: A corrosive blastwave (similar to now) but also a lingering toxic cloud! The cloud remains at where you first cast the ability.

* The corrosive blastwave causes all enemies hit by it to suffer 200/300/400/500 Corrosive damage per second for 3 seconds and has a radius of 8/10/12/15 meters. Any enemy hit by this corrosive blastwave will also be stunned for 4 seconds.
* The lingering toxic cloud only deals 20 Toxic damage per second, but remains 8/9/10/12 seconds and has a radius of 7/8/9/10 meters.
* The lingering cloud also causes enemies to lose line of sight. This makes them either shoot inaccurately and blindly through the cloud, or makes them run closer (and through) the cloud to be able to see you and/or your allies etc. While in the cloud, their vision is reduced to a range of about half a meter. This gives it more group utility and some usefulness in modes such as defense etc other than for the sake of damage. It also will make enemies more prone to clump together more, synergizing with its own damage capabilities, as well as synergizes very well with the rest of Saryn's skillset (in particular with Molt's aggrodraw)!

Note: The cloud, while obstructing enemies' line of sight, should be quite transparent for players, so it isn't visually impairing for you and your allies as well.
Power Strength - Increases damage for both the blastwave and the cloud (New for cloud)
Power Range - Increases AoE radius of both the blastwave and the lingering cloud (New for cloud)
Power Duration - Increases stun duration and increases damage durations (both blastwave and cloud), the RIGHT way, as in, it adds more ticks of damage etc  (New, as it is currently BAD to add duration for this ability) (Note; Fractions will be made into an extra tick (counts for both the highdamage and the lowdamage poison) doing less damage, relative to the fraction amount)

 

Recastable mid-duration?

Yes, no limit to how many targets can be affected + no limit to how many lingering toxic clouds can be created at once!

 

So, what could quickly be said about the scalability? Let's see:

 

Contagion - Slowdown and stagger/stun is always useful (EDIT: And the reliable healthreduction effect too!)

Molt - Distraction, debuff-removal and short invisibility are all very good and useful abilities, no matter the level range!

Venom Shroud - Meleebuff, percentage-based melee healing and a paralytic "shield" which nullifies the triggering attack has greatly scalable uses!

Miasma - Stun and a line-of-sight cloud can be useful at any level of gameplay!

 

Thoughts and opinions about these ideas? :)

 

Personal though of my stuff:

I think I might have overdone some stuff (mainly Molt and Venom Shroud), but at least it leaves them on a higher ground to base ideas upon, and stuff that are overdone can always be tweaked by removing things.

 

All my Warframe rebalancing threads:

1)

Loki

2) Excalibur

3) Frost

4) Ember

5) Saryn

6) Ash

7) Nekros

8) Valkyr

Edited May 23, 2014 by Azamagon

[Vortok]

I agree that Saryn is more of an elusive + durable tank rather than someone like Rhino or Valkyr that just facetanks everything.  Seems to function a bit better a mid range rather than cqc, as enemies are a bit less accurate letting Molt last a bit longer/Saryn's health and shields lasting longer as well.

 

I think the biggest boon for her 1 (whatever you choose to call it) would be for the spores to auto explode when their target dies - in a game where many people feel they're gimp if it takes more than 3 bullets to kill something, damage over time abilities have some unique challenges.  Changing it to one large spore or making it a free target ability just seems like an alternative design option (also, I've already had enough of Vauban putting Tesla spam on me - makes it hard to see at times with the constant energy ring it exudes - don't need Saryn adding similar visual clutter), rather than something that would really help it shine.  Mild slow down would be nice since, as stated, status ailments like that scale nicely.

 

 

Molt - Removing status ailments upon cast seems like a no brainer, especially because well... it's friggin' called Molt.  Would also make having fast reactions more rewarding if you get something like a dot from an Eviscerator.  Saryn's the queen of dots, would make sense for her to have the ability to defend against them.

 

A short term invis would also help Saryn get away from a dangerous cqc situation/more reliably get enemies to go for the Molt (though I haven't had too many issues with that during my playtime with Saryn).  The shorter duration + higher cost compared to Ash's invis should help prevent Saryn from during into too much of an "I'm always invisible" character.  The Gas explosion is neat and all (and the small fries of the faction most likely to melee swarm you - Infested - are all weak to Gas), but it alone doesn't justify the recent increase in energy cost.  The above two suggestions you made would make the 50 energy cost look a lot better.  Need punch through to shoot through teammates, so not sure if Molt really needs to act all that different.

 

One of the issues Molt has is how quickly high level enemies can kill it - but you may want it to die due to the damage it can do on death, too.  Simplest method seems to just put a minimum time limit on it's lifespan (provided you don't recast to replace it sooner), so that it'll always live a certain amount of time regardless of how much damage gets thrown at it.  Perhaps double the proposed Invis time, so 8 seconds or so (unaffected by power duration).

 

 

"Venom Shroud" - Some interesting ideas.  I'd suggest letting it still combine with other elements.  If people want Toxin they'll have that on their weapon (or just 2 other elements).  If they want a combo element involving Toxin, letting it add to that makes more sense.   Making it apply to all weapons could be dangerous, as then it becomes just a +damage ability that's mindlessly spammed at all times.

 

Being that two of Saryn's strong stat points are total health and armor, providing her with a method of healing makes sense so she isn't reliant on Rejuvination and this seems like an appropriate place to put it.  I'd go so far as to suggest making it a bit broader - any Toxin element based damage (whether combo element or base element) damage that Saryn does (from weapons or abilities) will do life leech.  Skip the range limit on the healing - she's not a brawler and doesn't always want to be in melee range of enemies.  A concern though, would be that it might make her a bit too tanky with a high powered weapon to the point of face tanking stuff, which doesn't quite match her style.

 

The paralysis effect is an interesting idea, as it would help Saryn be more elusive and the like due to slowing enemies down.  Likely make the duration unaffected by power duration mods.   Given that the boost to melee damage (at least currently) is a damage over time effect, adding the paralysis to melee strikes doesn't sound too unreasonable.  The 'once per cast' limitation would make too much power duration a slight liability, though.  If there's a short range limit on the 'thorns' paralysis and the other delivery method is melee then you might be able to skip the one paralysis per cast limitation without too much issue.

 

Other thing to consider is the incoming melee 2.0 - if it makes melee a viable alternative to gunplay then the melee boost of this ability may be more attractive.  An improved Molt (such as the short Invis) would also help Saryn function at close ranges when need be.

 

 

Miasma - Corrosive/Toxin as a combo has terrible synergy, particularly against Fossilized Infested and Proto Shields.  Also a downgrade against Ferrite armor (Corrosive is 75%, Toxin is a mere 25%).  Better left as pure Corrosive.  At least with Oberon's Impact/Radiation combo you can point at Corpus robotic enemies (Impact for Shields, Radiation for Robotic) as a viable target for that damage combo.

 

A line of sight blocking cloud is an interesting concept, though would likely require a ton of new coding even if it's just to treat enemies as blinded vs targets inside the cloud (or if the enemy being blinded if inside it).  The stun on it is already fairly solid, depending on how much duration and range you use.

 

 

 

Speaking of which, one of the most interesting points of Saryn's abilities right now is how they interact with power duration.  At the moment, the damage is more or less set (saw someone do some testing that got some variances at different power duration amounts) and more duration just makes it take longer to apply that damage.  Thus, negative duration (Fleeting Expertise with no +duration mods) is often desired - but that just makes her damage over time abilities function more like nukes and less like dots, which is a large part of her flavor.  Also means that Fleeting Expertise in particular is way over budget for Saryn and rather than having a drawback it instead has two very strong positives.

 

The primary alternative is just letting duration add more damage ticks.  Although that does make it a variant of power damage by adding more total damage per cast, the enemies still have to live long enough to receive those extra ticks of damage for it to matter, so it's still worth considering.  The drawbacks of the Corrupted mods would then be more relevant as well (especially the stun/damage combo of Miasma vs the corrupted mod drawbacks).  Choosing to go for either the stun or damage on Miasma is an interesting choice to make, but the trade offs aren't nearly as uniform on her other abilities, making builds that include multiple abilities not synergize particularly well.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Vortok

[Azamagon]

First of all Vortok, thank you for the very thorough response! :)

 

Now, let's respond (the text in bold and underlined)

I agree that Saryn is more of an elusive + durable tank rather than someone like Rhino or Valkyr that just facetanks everything.  Seems to function a bit better a mid range rather than cqc, as enemies are a bit less accurate letting Molt last a bit longer/Saryn's health and shields lasting longer as well.

Yup I think that is the intended design

 

I think the biggest boon for her 1 (whatever you choose to call it) would be for the spores to auto explode when their target dies - in a game where many people feel they're gimp if it takes more than 3 bullets to kill something, damage over time abilities have some unique challenges.  Changing it to one large spore or making it a free target ability just seems like an alternative design option (also, I've already had enough of Vauban putting Tesla spam on me - makes it hard to see at times with the constant energy ring it exudes - don't need Saryn adding similar visual clutter), rather than something that would really help it shine.  Mild slow down would be nice since, as stated, status ailments like that scale nicely.

Auto-explosion - Yeah, that is straight up necessary.

One spore - If there is gonna be an autoexplosion on death, it's rather pointless to have lots of spores anyway, since you can just kill the target for the fastest spore-popping. Leaving it as one (slightly) bigger spore makes it easier to use, in particular to keep up with the fast pace of the game.

Free targetting - I'm still not 100% sure about the free aim thing. It has its downs and ups.

Slowdown - Yeah, that is always good. But it is also one of the reasons I mostly want the skill to be freeaim, so you can place slowdown-mines of sorts, then detonate when enemies are a bit more close to it.

 

 

Molt - Removing status ailments upon cast seems like a no brainer, especially because well... it's friggin' called Molt.  Would also make having fast reactions more rewarding if you get something like a dot from an Eviscerator.  Saryn's the queen of dots, would make sense for her to have the ability to defend against them.

 

A short term invis would also help Saryn get away from a dangerous cqc situation/more reliably get enemies to go for the Molt (though I haven't had too many issues with that during my playtime with Saryn).  The shorter duration + higher cost compared to Ash's invis should help prevent Saryn from during into too much of an "I'm always invisible" character.  The Gas explosion is neat and all (and the small fries of the faction most likely to melee swarm you - Infested - are all weak to Gas), but it alone doesn't justify the recent increase in energy cost.  The above two suggestions you made would make the 50 energy cost look a lot better.  Need punch through to shoot through teammates, so not sure if Molt really needs to act all that different.

 

One of the issues Molt has is how quickly high level enemies can kill it - but you may want it to die due to the damage it can do on death, too.  Simplest method seems to just put a minimum time limit on it's lifespan (provided you don't recast to replace it sooner), so that it'll always live a certain amount of time regardless of how much damage gets thrown at it.  Perhaps double the proposed Invis time, so 8 seconds or so (unaffected by power duration).

Status remover - Glad you agreed :)

Short invisibility - Yeah, it fits the elusiveness (and also finally gives those that wanted a female Warframe to use invisibility, well, invisibility :P).

Gas-explosion - Huh? I never said Gas-type of damage? It's Toxic damage...

Punch-through - Hmm, well, it is just an idea. I just don't like when you can troll teammates by blocking them with your spells, that's all

Minimum time limit - I actually suggested that for Loki's Decoy (the first thread of this series I did!), and I could also add that here. But as you said yourself, with the explosion thing a quick death to it is not always unwanted. After all, even if it only distracts for a fraction of a second, Saryn is at least gonna stay Invisible for a brief moment and remove debuffs, so it will still be a worthwhile cast. Besides, by NOT having this lifespan limit, it also becomes more different from Loki's Decoy, which is good!

 

 

"Venom Shroud" - Some interesting ideas.  I'd suggest letting it still combine with other elements.  If people want Toxin they'll have that on their weapon (or just 2 other elements).  If they want a combo element involving Toxin, letting it add to that makes more sense.   Making it apply to all weapons could be dangerous, as then it becomes just a +damage ability that's mindlessly spammed at all times.

 

Being that two of Saryn's strong stat points are total health and armor, providing her with a method of healing makes sense so she isn't reliant on Rejuvination and this seems like an appropriate place to put it.  I'd go so far as to suggest making it a bit broader - any Toxin element based damage (whether combo element or base element) damage that Saryn does (from weapons or abilities) will do life leech.  Skip the range limit on the healing - she's not a brawler and doesn't always want to be in melee range of enemies.  A concern though, would be that it might make her a bit too tanky with a high powered weapon to the point of face tanking stuff, which doesn't quite match her style.

 

The paralysis effect is an interesting idea, as it would help Saryn be more elusive and the like due to slowing enemies down.  Likely make the duration unaffected by power duration mods.   Given that the boost to melee damage (at least currently) is a damage over time effect, adding the paralysis to melee strikes doesn't sound too unreasonable.  The 'once per cast' limitation would make too much power duration a slight liability, though.  If there's a short range limit on the 'thorns' paralysis and the other delivery method is melee then you might be able to skip the one paralysis per cast limitation without too much issue.

 

Other thing to consider is the incoming melee 2.0 - if it makes melee a viable alternative to gunplay then the melee boost of this ability may be more attractive.  An improved Molt (such as the short Invis) would also help Saryn function at close ranges when need be.

Toxin combination - Well, that is doesn't matter to me. I just don't want it to complicate battles (since it can actually NERF your damage dramatically if it combines elements). I dunno *shrug*

All weapons being buffed - Well, it is MUCH weaker on ranged weapons, so melee would still be preferred (especially due to the leech-range-limit).

Leech effect - Glad you like the concept! However, I'm not sure to allow ANY Toxin or Toxin-combined element in consideration here, as that could have the potential to make it too powerful. If I would increase its flexibility, I'd say, any Toxin or Toxin-combined element from her ABILIITES only (which includes the weapon-booster toxin). The idea of this leech effect though, was that you need to engage unit by unit (or at least, smaller groups, depending on weapon) by using your weapons to leech their health away. The range limit is to further encourage the useage of melee weapons, but still allowing ranged weapons to be used (otherwise, melee weapons may not be used for the leeching at ALL!). I also want Power Range to matter (on ALL abilities on ALL Warframes, same with Power Strength and Power Duration)

Paralysis - Ah, here is an important point: The paralysis NEEDS to be affected by Power Duration due to the once-per-target-limit! Otherwise, Power Duration, as you said, might be detrimental to the ability's defensive capabilities! Having Power Duration affect it AND the buff's duration as well is exacly what allows the limit to be there! And I don't know if the paralysis being an offensive effect on melee weapons as well is a good idea. The leech is there as the offensive bonus, the paralysis is there for defensive and elusive purposes, not for general crowd control.

 

 

Miasma - Corrosive/Toxin as a combo has terrible synergy, particularly against Fossilized Infested and Proto Shields.  Also a downgrade against Ferrite armor (Corrosive is 75%, Toxin is a mere 25%).  Better left as pure Corrosive.  At least with Oberon's Impact/Radiation combo you can point at Corpus robotic enemies (Impact for Shields, Radiation for Robotic) as a viable target for that damage combo.

 

A line of sight blocking cloud is an interesting concept, though would likely require a ton of new coding even if it's just to treat enemies as blinded vs targets inside the cloud (or if the enemy being blinded if inside it).  The stun on it is already fairly solid, depending on how much duration and range you use

 

Speaking of which, one of the most interesting points of Saryn's abilities right now is how they interact with power duration.  At the moment, the damage is more or less set (saw someone do some testing that got some variances at different power duration amounts) and more duration just makes it take longer to apply that damage.  Thus, negative duration (Fleeting Expertise with no +duration mods) is often desired - but that just makes her damage over time abilities function more like nukes and less like dots, which is a large part of her flavor.  Also means that Fleeting Expertise in particular is way over budget for Saryn and rather than having a drawback it instead has two very strong positives.

 

The primary alternative is just letting duration add more damage ticks.  Although that does make it a variant of power damage by adding more total damage per cast, the enemies still have to live long enough to receive those extra ticks of damage for it to matter, so it's still worth considering.  The drawbacks of the Corrupted mods would then be more relevant as well (especially the stun/damage combo of Miasma vs the corrupted mod drawbacks).  Choosing to go for either the stun or damage on Miasma is an interesting choice to make, but the trade offs aren't nearly as uniform on her other abilities, making builds that include multiple abilities not synergize particularly well.

Corrosive/Toxic - Meh, was just an idea to make it seem more like a "cocktail" of poisons, so to speak. Toxic has the benefit of bypassing shields entirely though, so on Corpus it would not be that bad. But yeah, far from a necessary change.

LoS - Well, I think it is almost necessary, as it is one of the more bland Ultimates in the game (Even Volt's ulti has a special effect; It's affected by the environmental electronics). All Ultimates needs to be more interesting, and I think this is the best I could've come up with so far.

Duration effect - Honestly, I hate this part of the ability (I hope it's a bug). It's so counterintuitive to DoTs. More duration should never be a BAD thing! Thus, it needs to be fixed as I have suggested (which is also how many other abilities work, like Ember's abilities for example). And yes, the whole point of making things intuitive and logical (such as less duration should, by intuition, be a BAD thing for durations on abilities!), is to balance up the Corrupted mods better. That's also why ALL abilities on ALL Warframes need to be affected by Power Strength/Range/Duration, and in the RIGHT way, so that a Corrupted mods drawback is in fact a drawback. And for ALL of the abilities of your characters, not just a select few!

Once again, thanks for the thorough feedback! Much appreciated :)

[Vortok]

I had a thought regarding Miasma.  As its Corrosive, perhaps crank the status chance - potentially all the way to 100% (per tick, even).  Not clear on all the exact mechanics/numbers of that ailment, particularly in relation to proccing several times in succession but I think it chains correctly.  Could also just skip using status and put the armor degradation directly on Miasma instead.  Would give her a solid way to lower the armor of extremely high level enemies - something other frames can't do to any reliable degree (Nekros being the closest, I think).

 

 

Edit: Extra stuff.

 

 

Thanks for the correction on Molt's damage type.  I must've confused it from a thread awhile ago where someone was recommending Gas so she'd have access all four Toxin based damage types.  The patch notes didn't spell out what damage type it was at the time + the wiki hadn't yet been updated + the Gas and Toxic icons look pretty similar when you can only see them for half a second.  Either way, benefit of discussion.  Get to learn stuff and correct misconceptions.

 

As for Molt, I still like the idea of shedding status ailments.  The invis is cool, but everyone likes buffs and from my current experience of using Molt is seems to pull stuff off me fairly well already.  I wouldn't argue with a short invis like that, but I'm not sure it's truly needed - would just make it far more reliable as a 'time to get the hell out of here' ability.

 

 

Status ailments vs duration.  The proc from Molt got me thinking about her other abilities (like Miasma) and how they interact with status ailments.  I mentioned Miasma above in my original post.  I tested it briefly using duration mods and the status chance on it appears to be extremely low, if even there.  Also noted that the stun duration is not extended by power duration, which I'd seen someone else mention but wanted to confirm.  If the status chance was significantly higher, then speccing for power duration to get more ticks (and thus more procs to lower armor) could be a viable build option.

 

By the same note, Venom (current 1 ability) also has a very useful proc due to it dealing Viral damage.  Consolidating it to one spore would mean less individual ticks.  I'm not 100% certain on how procs work in cases like that with several ticks happening at once, but seems like changing the ability to using a single spore would lower the chance of inflicting the Viral proc (aka, the part that scales).  At the moment the proc chance appears to be rather low, but it's there.  As Venom does not have a power in use restriction (can even stack it on one target), the low proc rate seems fair when also considering the low energy cost.

 

The main problem with the current implementation is that it is rather difficult to spread the spores before the target gets annihilated by the overpowered weaponry everyone is toting around - and past the initial stages the game isn't really about single target dps, thus the ability feels lacking.  Perhaps if not a detonation on death the spores could simply fall to the ground and you could shoot them to detonate them there.  That would mean it still requires user interaction to specifically spread them, rather than making it automatic (aka, mindless).  Possibly also cause them to attach to an enemy that walks over them as well, much like the mini-rollers work that Grineer Seekers utilize.

 

 

I'd also be curious to know if there's any method of impacting the status chance of her abilities - rather hard to figure that out with the rather cryptic info (if any) we get from DE.  If there isn't one, power strength seems like a prime candidate - to keep it a useful stat when the actual damage values start to fall off (aka, Overextended isn't a no brainer if you don't care about the damage and just want procs).

Edited February 25, 2014 by Vortok

[Azamagon]

Responses are in bold and underlined:

I had a thought regarding Miasma.  As its Corrosive, perhaps crank the status chance - potentially all the way to 100% (per tick, even).  Not clear on all the exact mechanics/numbers of that ailment, particularly in relation to proccing several times in succession but I think it chains correctly.  Could also just skip using status and put the armor degradation directly on Miasma instead.  Would give her a solid way to lower the armor of extremely high level enemies - something other frames can't do to any reliable degree (Nekros being the closest, I think).

Honestly, Corrosive is too niched of a proc imo. Its only useful for Grineer, some bosses and some Corrupted. It should have a use on Infested and Corpus too. Then I'd definitely make it a 100% proc.

 

Edit: Extra stuff.

 

 

Thanks for the correction on Molt's damage type.  I must've confused it from a thread awhile ago where someone was recommending Gas so she'd have access all four Toxin based damage types.  The patch notes didn't spell out what damage type it was at the time + the wiki hadn't yet been updated + the Gas and Toxic icons look pretty similar when you can only see them for half a second.  Either way, benefit of discussion.  Get to learn stuff and correct misconceptions.

No problem! And the Gas and Toxic icons are indeed too similar.

 

As for Molt, I still like the idea of shedding status ailments.  The invis is cool, but everyone likes buffs and from my current experience of using Molt is seems to pull stuff off me fairly well already.  I wouldn't argue with a short invis like that, but I'm not sure it's truly needed - would just make it far more reliable as a 'time to get the hell out of here' ability.

Glad you still like it! The invis i felt was a way to make it more different from Loki's deocy (which I made more durable instead). It's also suggested really make Saryn feel more elusive.

 

Status ailments vs duration.  The proc from Molt got me thinking about her other abilities (like Miasma) and how they interact with status ailments.  I mentioned Miasma above in my original post.  I tested it briefly using duration mods and the status chance on it appears to be extremely low, if even there.  Also noted that the stun duration is not extended by power duration, which I'd seen someone else mention but wanted to confirm.  If the status chance was significantly higher, then speccing for power duration to get more ticks (and thus more procs to lower armor) could be a viable build option.

I guess, but then we are back to the same problem as I answered first: Corrosive procs are useless on Corpus and Infested (bar bosses). And imo, when it comes to ANY procs on ANY ability (with VERY few exceptions), they should either be 100% chance or 0%. Abilities are supposed to be the reliable special effects after all.

In the case of her #1, I'd say it could proc its own version of Viral (say 5/8/11/15% health reduction) which has a 100% chance to trigger on its targets and stacks with the regular Viral effect (multiplicatively of course). Reliable and with many targets affectable, but weaker instead.

The stun from Miasma is indeed not affected by power duration, and is something I will suggest to change (instead of maybe messing with the overly niched Corrosive proc. If the Corrosive proc became generally useful though, I guess the stun being affected by duration wouldn't be necessary).

 

By the same note, Venom (current 1 ability) also has a very useful proc due to it dealing Viral damage.  Consolidating it to one spore would mean less individual ticks.  I'm not 100% certain on how procs work in cases like that with several ticks happening at once, but seems like changing the ability to using a single spore would lower the chance of inflicting the Viral proc (aka, the part that scales).  At the moment the proc chance appears to be rather low, but it's there.  As Venom does not have a power in use restriction (can even stack it on one target), the low proc rate seems fair when also considering the low energy cost.

Well, that could be solved by simply changing it to what I said above instead :)

 

The main problem with the current implementation is that it is rather difficult to spread the spores before the target gets annihilated by the overpowered weaponry everyone is toting around - and past the initial stages the game isn't really about single target dps, thus the ability feels lacking.  Perhaps if not a detonation on death the spores could simply fall to the ground and you could shoot them to detonate them there.  That would mean it still requires user interaction to specifically spread them, rather than making it automatic (aka, mindless).  Possibly also cause them to attach to an enemy that walks over them as well, much like the mini-rollers work that Grineer Seekers utilize.

The spore falling to the ground after an enemy dies seems like a good and balanced idea actually! Nice thinking! The only exception to that imo would be if it's placed on a Molt. Molt death with a spore attached = Instant detionation.

The "attach on enemy that walks over them", that's a great idea too! :)

 

I'd also be curious to know if there's any method of impacting the status chance of her abilities - rather hard to figure that out with the rather cryptic info (if any) we get from DE.  If there isn't one, power strength seems like a prime candidate - to keep it a useful stat when the actual damage values start to fall off (aka, Overextended isn't a no brainer if you don't care about the damage and just want procs).

Imo, as I said earlier, I'd rather abilities have a 100% reliability on special effects (or procs)

Thanks for the feedback, again! Lots of ideas came to mind from this, thanks! :)

[Noble_Cactus]

Perhaps the new Miasma's stun could increase the target's vulnerability to overall damage, similar to Serration except that it's a value set on the target rather than the weapon? Could help with the ability's scaling issues while making it effective on all factions.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Azamagon]

Perhaps the new Miasma's stun could increase the target's vulnerability to overall damage, similar to Serration except that it's a value set on the target rather than the weapon? Could help with the ability's scaling issues while making it effective on all factions.

Funny you say that. In this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/187901-changing-crit-mechanics-and-tweaking-procs-for-more-general-use/ I talked about changing the procs to be more generally useful (this is mainly an issue on Corrosive and Magnetic currently only affecting targets with armor and shields respectively).

The very suggestion I gave to Corrosive was that its procs could increase the target's damage taken (and possibly also keep the armor debuff, so it has its niche useage still intact as well).

So obviously I agreed, although, I'd probably tie the weakness to the Corrosive proc (which should have a 100% chance on for Miasma) rather than being part of the stun. Although, that could still be an option of course :)

[Noble_Cactus]

Come to think of it, I don't even remember typing "stun" :x I was pretty tired though so that must have slipped by. Anyway, I gree. the debuff should persist even after the stun has worn off.

[LukeAura]

Saryn seems to be our DoT Warlock/mixed with a hint of tank/dodge tank.  
Damage over time, a little AoE for good measure(But not a lot), has powers of avoidance and aggro drawing, but not necessarily outright speed or stealth. 
DoT doesn't work all that well in Warframe, so it either needs to be strong like WoF, or provide utility like the fire procc CC+DoT effect. 

Molt I like the Gas explosion it has. It's kind of nice to drop it as a mine and have enemies take themselves down, fits kind of in to that dodge tank/mage hybrid feel she has. Being able to put a spore on it would just be icing on the remote destructive cake.  
And I like the idea Molt essentially takes her buffs and debuffs. Shedding off the bad ones and taking a copy of the good ones. I think it would be best if it did that with all buffs, for what very few buffs would actually synergize with it. If under Roar and you molt, if it dies before the duration is up it'll boost its explosion. Warcry could make it be tougher to last longer and draw more enemies. Speed could make it go faster, jk lol. :D Unfortunately we are rather low on synergistic 'buffing' abilities so it might be a moot idea but hopefully we get more so it becomes more useful. 
I think her invisibility needs to be shorter than 5 seconds, just a little bit though. 3/3.5, not much but just so she isn't competing against the duration of Ash's and it's more like a dodge mechanic than an invisibility mechanic. Or just reword it so that its a full aggro draw for the duration. Not full stealth, enemies still detect her, but effectively nets the same result. 

I'm conflicted about health regeneration on her in Venom Shroud. At one side, that is to support her best defensive measure. On the other, I don't really see her as the type to leech life. I think the 2% you've suggested is small enough to not be a big focus, but enough to bolster her best defenses with a form of self regen. Nice work there. I also like the idea of paralysing attackers on her. I don't know if it needs to be as long as you suggested, but certainly you have the right idea with it Short duration stun, short range area of activation. A defensive but offensive melee ability, that also has a little extra functionality for other situations. 

I think with the DoT cloud and the stun Miasma's initial corrosive blast wave could be made a little longer, 18-20 meters. and turn in to a 100-135 degree blast in front of Saryn. So it won't hit a whole room with the stun, or even clear it if the levels are low enough, giving the cloud use at all levels and keeping it to have a little more planning. 

[Azamagon]

Come to think of it, I don't even remember typing "stun" :x I was pretty tired though so that must have slipped by. Anyway, I gree. the debuff should persist even after the stun has worn off.

Heh, stuff like that happens :P

 

 

To Luke, answers are underlined and bolded

Saryn seems to be our DoT Warlock/mixed with a hint of tank/dodge tank.  

Damage over time, a little AoE for good measure(But not a lot), has powers of avoidance and aggro drawing, but not necessarily outright speed or stealth. 

DoT doesn't work all that well in Warframe, so it either needs to be strong like WoF, or provide utility like the fire procc CC+DoT effect. 

Seems like a good overview of her and general observations, yes :)

Molt I like the Gas explosion it has. It's kind of nice to drop it as a mine and have enemies take themselves down, fits kind of in to that dodge tank/mage hybrid feel she has. Being able to put a spore on it would just be icing on the remote destructive cake.  

And I like the idea Molt essentially takes her buffs and debuffs. Shedding off the bad ones and taking a copy of the good ones. I think it would be best if it did that with all buffs, for what very few buffs would actually synergize with it. If under Roar and you molt, if it dies before the duration is up it'll boost its explosion. Warcry could make it be tougher to last longer and draw more enemies. Speed could make it go faster, jk lol. :D Unfortunately we are rather low on synergistic 'buffing' abilities so it might be a moot idea but hopefully we get more so it becomes more useful. 

I think her invisibility needs to be shorter than 5 seconds, just a little bit though. 3/3.5, not much but just so she isn't competing against the duration of Ash's and it's more like a dodge mechanic than an invisibility mechanic. Or just reword it so that its a full aggro draw for the duration. Not full stealth, enemies still detect her, but effectively nets the same result. 

Yeah, when I think more about it, the toxic explosion should stay. Makes it more different from Loki's Decoy, which is a good thing! Glad you like the spore-attachement for it :)

The buff-copying was MAINLY for the Venom Shroud's paralytic bonus, but those other ones from other Warframes are good little bonuses as well. Those things add flavour to the game, even if, as you say, there aren't all too many of them.

5 second invis can be reduced for sure. As you say, it shouldn't be used for true stealth, just a safe getaway thing. I'd prefer it to be stealth though, so she has some potential quick melee bonuses (further synergy with Venom Shroud)

I'm conflicted about health regeneration on her in Venom Shroud. At one side, that is to support her best defensive measure. On the other, I don't really see her as the type to leech life. I think the 2% you've suggested is small enough to not be a big focus, but enough to bolster her best defenses with a form of self regen. Nice work there. I also like the idea of paralysing attackers on her. I don't know if it needs to be as long as you suggested, but certainly you have the right idea with it Short duration stun, short range area of activation. A defensive but offensive melee ability, that also has a little extra functionality for other situations. 

Well, if Saryn is supposed to be a pseudotank, being elusive can only do so much. Damage taken will be inevitable. Thus sustaining yourself, even if slowly (which can be effective due to her being elusive too) would make her more viable as a pseudotank. It also makes her able to remain in the battlefield longer so she can spread her DoTs and let them work. So, slow sustain on herself, and slow damage on enemies, given her defense and offense a joint theme :)

Glad you like the paralyze! It further goes along with the whole slow sustain thing as well

I think with the DoT cloud and the stun Miasma's initial corrosive blast wave could be made a little longer, 18-20 meters. and turn in to a 100-135 degree blast in front of Saryn. So it won't hit a whole room with the stun, or even clear it if the levels are low enough, giving the cloud use at all levels and keeping it to have a little more planning. 

A more conical blast? Well, that could work. Would certainly make for a different ultimate (even if a conical massive scream would be more fitting for Banshee?)

Thanks for the feedback! :)

[LukeAura]

Banshee getting the conical wail would be cool!

Enemies could slowly get blasted away by sound waves. 

I've been thinking about making a post on utility and situational effects and its importance in Warframe abilities over straight up fire and forget damage and CC. 
Might attach a link to one of your threads if you don't mind? 

 

Edited March 6, 2014 by LukeAura

[Noble_Cactus]

You know one thing that's always bothered me a little about Miasma? It's not actually a miasma. It's an acid nova. Maybe the new Miasma could leave a lingering corrosive cloud that hung over the area of casting for x amount of seconds, stunning and damaging anything that was caught in it or ran into it. That way, Saryn could Molt to draw enemy fire, then run/copter around and Miasma several groups or chokepoints at a time. Though the issue here would be stacking multiple clouds on top of one another with Miasma spam.

[Azamagon]

Banshee getting the conical wail would be cool!

Enemies could slowly get blasted away by sound waves. 

I've been thinking about making a post on utility and situational effects and its importance in Warframe abilities over straight up fire and forget damage and CC. 

Might attach a link to one of your threads if you don't mind? 

 

By all means, go ahead! :)

 

You know one thing that's always bothered me a little about Miasma? It's not actually a miasma. It's an acid nova. Maybe the new Miasma could leave a lingering corrosive cloud that hung over the area of casting for x amount of seconds, stunning and damaging anything that was caught in it or ran into it. That way, Saryn could Molt to draw enemy fire, then run/copter around and Miasma several groups or chokepoints at a time. Though the issue here would be stacking multiple clouds on top of one another with Miasma spam.

Well, that's more or less what I suggested. I split it up in two parts:

1) Initial blastwave (more like a toxic aoe) which stuns targets and deals a heavy dot

2) A toxic cloud (more miasma-like, if you will) which deals lesser dot and obstructs enemies vision (blocks their line of sight greatly).

 

Having a lingering stuncloud maybe would be a tad strong?

[MechaKnight]

I cited this thread in my own rework thread here. Good luck, you've gotten some nice ideas of your own.

[Azamagon]

I cited this thread in my own rework thread here. Good luck, you've gotten some nice ideas of your own.

Thanks!

I saw your thread and liked a lot of what you said, hence why I linked (and TL;DR'd) my ideas in there too to add more to the discussion :)