Balancing Dual & Prime Weapons

[notionphil]

TL;DR - Dual and Prime Variants should not be upgrades OR sidegrades. They should be more powerful variants which are also more challenging to use effectively.

 

Warframe's metagame is centered around acquiring equipment, then improving that equipment via actual cash purchases (cats) and extensive playtime(formas).

 

New weapons nonwithstanding, a significant portion of our 'reinforcements' are Variants of existing gear - Duals and Primes. These Variants are most commonly direct upgrades to their prior versions, rendering them obsolete in comparison - thus nullifying the value of our playtime and money in the name of providing "new content" for us to consume.

However, we crave more power, and DE has made Variant 'reinforcements' a cornerstone of their model.

 

I propose a solution that allows Variants to be attractive without rendering their priors obsolete. Don't make Duals/Primes upgrades or sidegrades - make them stronger but harder to use.

 

The History of Dual Weapon Balance

 

Older Dual(ak/twin) Weapons - double the fun?

 

The majority of older dual weapons gained nearly 2x fire rate and magazine size at the expense of accuracy and reload time - a fortuitous trade indeed. A double magazine far outweighs the DPS loss of an extra half second or so on reload and a large bump in fire rate translates directly to DPS. Thus, we end up with a dual weapon being 1.5-2x as powerful as its single variant. All while having the exact same damage per shot.

 

Lex:4460

AkLex:8204

 

Magnus:8906

AkMagnus:13489

 

With the 'old system' there is literally no reason to use the single version. It is hopelessly outclassed and you have wasted your time. DE has apparently realized this, and improved upon it.

 

Recent Dual Weapons - A Numbers Game

 

As of late, DE has been playing with other variables to increase overall DPS by a smaller amount, with a more equitable (if not logical) tradeoff. For example, the Dual Cestras has a ~15% DPS increase, and a larger magazine....with a similar decrease in the ability to actually hit anything due to recoil.

 

Similarly, to the chagrin of many forum posters, the AkBronco Prime follows the AkBronco in a lower damage per shot, yet a higher status chance and more overall DPS than the Bronco Prime.

 

Bronco Prime: 14126 DPS @30% status

AkBronco Prime: 15134 DPS @14% status

 

A sidegrade - that takes roughly 250% more time and farming to build.

 

A 7% bump in DPS and a 120% better status chance is a reasonable tradeoff for the 25% less damage per shot. Statistically I think it deserves about 10% more DPS but overall it is technically balanced. There isn't a 'right choice' between the two - meaning neither weapon has been made obsolete. However...

 

...Something feels wrong. A gun which requires 2 normal guns to make shouldn't be 7% more effective with a huge trade off. I won't waste my time crafting 3 foundry items for a pure sidegrade.

 

Not to mention...Lower damage per shot removes the 'bronconess' from the akbronco prime. A lower damage per shot feels like a step backwards for a facemelting weapon. The character of the gun should always be preserved - else it is no fun to use. Let's not forget WF is a game, not a math class.

 

So how do we preserve a weapon's character, not make it a boring sidegrade (which is much harder to obtain) and not make it a straight upgrade?

 

 

 

Dual Weapons 2.0 - The Price of Power

 

Given the fact that Dual weapons 'cost' two weapons to make, they shouldn't just be a sidegrade. However, they also shouldn't be a direct numerical upgrade that renders the original useless. They should be the distilled essence of what made the first weapon good...with a tradeoff that makes them more challenging to use.

 

There are simple options for creating Dual weapons that would help preserve their character without making them straight upgrades or sidegrades. Tweaking numbers won't always work - firing two guns gets 2x as much lead downrange, end of story. However, the process of firing two guns is far more challenging than firing one.

 

One or more of the following would apply to a Dual weapon Variant, increasing its challenge of use:

 

• Firing Variations:

   

  -Fire both weapons at the same time, with a reduced fire rate (AkBronco should have had this)

  -Fire one weapon followed by the other immediately, like a 2 round burst, lower ROF but no recoil between shots

  -Fires as a single weapon when not zoomed, right-mouse doesn't zoom but instead brings the second weapon up
  -Fires as a double weapon only when not zoomed, zooming only fires single

   

• Aiming Variations:

   

  -When aiming or not, no reticule is displayed
  -When aiming or not, a more obscure or less accurate reticule is displayed

  -Each weapon fires slightly to the left or right of the reticule, recoil happens in direction of the shot

   

   

• Reload Variations:

   

  -Requires two reloads to reload both weapons - a standard reload only reloads the first (half of mag). RoF is halved until the second is reloaded.
  -Interruptions during reload cause only one weapon to be reloaded

 

Prime Weapons - Better in every way?

 

Every single Prime has been a pure upgrade, and rendered its normal version obsolete. I won't even go into the numbers. While moar power is always desired, power should come with a trade-off - especially with the advent of Prime trading.

 

        Prime weapons should have a significantly lower ammo capacity than their original counterparts.

 

Why? Because Orokin don't miss. Primes are for experts. And experts don't fire shots into the walls, or into dead enemies. If you can handle the 50% damage boost of a Prime, with corresponding ammo efficiency, you can handle learning how to aim. Or modding your weapon for ammo capacity/mutation.

 

Ammo Cap should vary by prime, depending on how much more powerful it is than its regular counterpart. A suitable range might be 40% to 60% of regular ammo - enough that two ammo mods would bring it back in line for those who are using Prime's before they are ready. Team ammo would always be an option as well.

 

This change would keep Primes as the pinnacle of power - but give a tradeoff in ease of use.

 

Wraiths/Vandals - Power, But at What Cost

While Wraiths and Vandals could be treated exactly like Primes for balance purposes, I think this would be an interesting opportunity for DE to inject some gameplay with lore. Ammo seems like a very reasonable meta-balance factor for weapons, as it doesn't reduce power, it simply makes the weapon less flexible and makes your skill more critical.

 

Vandals - Corpus Weaponry - Self Regenerating Ammo with a very small capacity

 

Vandals are presumably used by Corpus elite forces (not the mindless workers we slaughter on a daily basis). I'd imagine that they would efficiently dispatch foes, then move to the next - not entrench in prolonged firefights. Thus Vandals would have a self-contained energy ammo system designed for very efficient skirmishing.

They'd have a very small ammo cap, maybe just 30-40% of regular - but it would slowly recharge over time, and not be affected by pickups.

 

Wraiths - Grineer Weaponry - large capacity, but can overheat if misued, causing jamming

Not known for their precision, nor precaution in engineering, I'd imagine Grineer Wraith weaponry would have a larger ammo cap than a prime, potentially a full cap. However, they would likely have an overheating mechanism which would cause them to violently jam if used recklessly. Possibly even staggering and draining a Tenno's shield.

A tap of reload would un-jam the Wraith - but take longer than a conventional reload.

 

Edited March 6, 2014 by notionphil

[Jeerome0406]

I agree with every part of this post.

And it also should apply to melee. And as for wraiths and vandals? I would think along the same lines as primes.

Have wraiths have higher magazines and fire rates. And have vandals have higher reload, better accuracy, and more crit chance. A damage boost is obvious on those two.

[Deidaku]

very accurate post . +1 Notionphil!

 

I agree especially with the ammo part. 

[F_deel]

Orokin don't miss. Primes are for experts. And experts don't fire shots into the walls, or into dead enemies. If you can handle the 50% damage boost of a Prime, with corresponding ammo efficiency, you can handle learning how to aim. Or modding your weapon for ammo capacity/mutation.

 

Best paragraph I've seen in this forum, I totally agree, you deserve a +1 mister

 

Most players here thinks Semi-auto trigger sucks, well, that's gonna be our advantage, we aim for the kill

[notionphil]

I agree with every part of this post.

And it also should apply to melee. And as for wraiths and vandals? I would think along the same lines as primes.

Have wraiths have higher magazines and fire rates. And have vandals have higher reload, better accuracy, and more crit chance. A damage boost is obvious on those two.

 

Thank you, and yes, I will add a quick nod to wraiths and vandals to the post. Power does not come free.

[LukeAura]

The ammo part is actually very smartly reasoned. Why should we have needed more ammo when we were at our...prime(ba-dum tish).

As for the dual aiming variations. I'd almost think we could just turn it in to a customizable option, "Gunkata". Pick the firing style you like best for each dual weapon.

Maybe instead of no reticle have a split one/unique one that shows the left and right center points or is a less accurate marker than the single. As it seems the Orokin Cell is indeed for the ability to synchronize between each gun judging by the new 'Akbronco prime link', the reticle is likely Warframe HUD based more than gun based. I'd also like to see different weapon types get different reticles that fit them so it might just be me.  

I definitely agree though, their difficulty of use should be increased. Although that would make dual Grineer weapons the ultimate challenge when they're supposed to be our challenging to use weapons already. 

[Monolake]

ok

[notionphil]

The ammo part is actually very smartly reasoned. Why should we have needed more ammo when we were at our...prime(ba-dum tish).

As for the dual aiming variations. I'd almost think we could just turn it in to a customizable option, "Gunkata". Pick the firing style you like best for each dual weapon.

Maybe instead of no reticle have a split one/unique one that shows the left and right center points or is a less accurate marker than the single. As it seems the Orokin Cell is indeed for the ability to synchronize between each gun judging by the new 'Akbronco prime link', the reticle is likely Warframe HUD based more than gun based. I'd also like to see different weapon types get different reticles that fit them so it might just be me.  

I definitely agree though, their difficulty of use should be increased. Although that would make dual Grineer weapons the ultimate challenge when they're supposed to be our challenging to use weapons already. 

 

 

Yes, the left and right reticules would be a very cool idea, and also add quite a bit of challenge!

 

I would also like to see special reticules (for single or dual weaponry).

 

EDIT - the special reticules or firing modes are intended to increase difficulty of using the weapon, so making them optional would defeat the point.

 

It's basically a tradeoff - ex: you get to use 2 Mareloks with 50%+ more potential DPS, but now you have no reticule, or two separate reticules, etc which makes it more challenging to bring your full DPS to bear.

Edited March 6, 2014 by notionphil

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Dang it notion, stop stealing my +1s

[LukeAura]

I really like the unique ammo systems idea of the wraith/vandals! 

For the Wraith one, by 'reckless' I think it should be something along the lines of stopping and starting continuously for full autos. So if you just tap out every shot or use in several short bursts it jams. while for semi auto wraiths(Strun) or burst ones, I'm not sure. Maybe pulling a set speed faster than the trigger is meant to be? One misclick, fine, two you jam.
You could set it around the human click speed, around 5 clicks per second should be enough, as Semi auto grineer weapons tend to not approach it any ways it won't hamper dps even for scroll wheel firing. Unless of course Brakk Wraith shows up. :p 

The Corpus are all about efficiency in weapons, so their's being a self regenerating but shortened limit is a nice touch to that theme. 

[notionphil]

I really like the unique ammo systems idea of the wraith/vandals! 

For the Wraith one, by 'reckless' I think it should be something along the lines of stopping and starting continuously for full autos. So if you just tap out every shot or use in several short bursts it jams. while for semi auto wraiths(Strun) or burst ones, I'm not sure. Maybe pulling a set speed faster than the trigger is meant to be? One misclick, fine, two you jam.

You could set it around the human click speed, around 5 clicks per second should be enough, as Semi auto grineer weapons tend to not approach it any ways it won't hamper dps even for scroll wheel firing. Unless of course Brakk Wraith shows up. :p 

The Corpus are all about efficiency in weapons, so their's being a self regenerating but shortened limit is a nice touch to that theme. 

 

Luke, that's a pretty cool way of looking at it. Because Wraiths come in semi, auto etc varieties I didn't want to tie it directly to fire rate. DE has a lot of trouble w fire rate already. But I like the idea of 'timing', and even maintenance being important to Wraith weapons.

 

One way to apply that to all weapon firing speeds is reload.

 

If you reload while there are bullets in the mag, you get a normal reload time. However, if the gun reloads on its own bc the clip empties, the gun jams and reload time is doubled.

 

I want to approach it without any RNG or complex numbers.  Not sure I like that better than the original overheat concept, but I think it's a really cool idea to be explored - and there will be other factions coming as well :)

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Personally...
Prime (Orokin): low ammo
Vandal (Corpus): energy
Wraith (Grineer): overheat
Corrupted (Infested): jam (they are alive after all; press the trigger too fast and it might get angry with you)

 

Dual Pistols: double DPS, but not aimed quite at the reticle.

Dual Melee: multi-target and somewhat higher DPS, but lower rate.and cost more stamina to use

Edited March 6, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[notionphil]

Personally...

Orokin: low ammo

Vandal: energy

Wraith: overheat

Corrupted (infested): jam (they are alive after all)

 

 

Corrupted - awesome, and that is the right name. Cant wait to see one.

 

My thought is Corrupted guns are conscious - not sentient, but they react to your behavior and will not bind to an unsutable host. In my wildest dreams, they'd work something like this.

 

This sounds a lot more complicated then it is but....

 

Corrupted weapons have unlimited ammo, and a DNA-helix symbol where the ammo cap would be. It represents your bond with the weapon - spread its corruption and be rewarded with a strong bond. Disappoint it with weakness, or ignore it - and it will thirst and wither.

 

Behind the scenes - corrupted weapons want you to kill enemies, thus your accuracy* with each mag is 'scored'. Each weapon has a target accuracy value; if you score within its desired range, your bond will be unchanged, thus reloading costs you no ammo/bond strength.

 

If you score less accuracy, your bond will slightly fade towards red. If you score more than the target, it will strengthen towards green. When the helix reaches full red, you will be unable to reload it at all. After 30 seconds, it will return to a dark orange where it can reload a half mag.

 

If the weapon is left for ~1m without firing, even a green bond will fade to dark orange - one half mag remaining.

 

TL:DR

using a Corrupted weapon really well* regenerates its ammo.

using it well means you don't spend any ammo.

using it OK means you spend ammo

using it poorly or not using it drains extra ammo

 

So if you let your Corrupted weapon sit around for a min or so, it will only have a half mag left in it when you come back.

 

 

 

*I'd rather use kills/mag than accuracy, but with the scaling in WF that's impossible.

Edited March 6, 2014 by notionphil

[LukeAura]

Luke, that's a pretty cool way of looking at it. Because Wraiths come in semi, auto etc varieties I didn't want to tie it directly to fire rate. DE has a lot of trouble w fire rate already. But I like the idea of 'timing', and even maintenance being important to Wraith weapons.

 

One way to apply that to all weapon firing speeds is reload.

 

If you reload while there are bullets in the mag, you get a normal reload time. However, if the gun reloads on its own bc the clip empties, the gun jams and reload time is doubled.

 

I want to approach it without any RNG or complex numbers.  Not sure I like that better than the original overheat concept, but I think it's a really cool idea to be explored - and there will be other factions coming as well :)

I like the idea of that, however, Grineer seem more aggressive. They should be playing more to the strengths of that large ammo bonus they have in wraiths instead of against it. 

Perhaps reverse and say if you don't at least unload the last X percent of the clip at once or in a small but manageable window it'd jam? Forcing people to either reload early, or waste a little extra and feel the roar. 

That way it's not so much based on firing speed, but player awareness? 

 

Edited March 6, 2014 by LukeAura

[notionphil]

I like the idea of that, however, Grineer seem more aggressive. They should be playing more to the strengths of that large ammo bonus they have in wraiths instead of against it. 

Perhaps reverse and say if you don't at least unload the last X percent of the clip at once or in a small but manageable window it'd jam? Forcing people to either reload early, or waste a little extra and feel the roar. 

That way it's not so much based on firing speed, but player awareness? 

 

 

Actually now that we're on that logical train of thought...what if Wraith weapons simply could NOT be reloaded mid clip without wasting the remaining ammo and facing a 50% reload speed penalty.

 

However, end of clip reloads were at listed speed. That certainly fits the idea of an aggressive weapon - works best when you burn through the clip.

 

I still think overheat fits these weapons best as a balancing mechanic, but these are interesting ideas.

[LukeAura]

That might be perfect! 
Waste the clip, or go in running on fumes. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

That might be perfect! 

Waste the clip, or go in running on fumes. 

I'd be fine with overheat or wasted reloads.

 

As far as future-proofing goes, I feel inclined to want to reserve overheat for whatever crazy energy weapons Sentients might have...

[notionphil]

I'd be fine with overheat or wasted reloads.

 

As far as future-proofing goes, I feel inclined to want to reserve overheat for whatever crazy energy weapons Sentients might have...

 

Agreed. Wasted reloads seems perfectly suited to Wraiths, which are obviously designed for non-stop killing not coolly calculated efficiency.

 

Overheat would work better with an infinite ammo type weapon.

[halofury36]

I greatly appreciate the innovation and creativity generated here. Btw, I was directed to this thread through another post, not sure how I missed this one, but it is really interesting.

[notionphil]

I greatly appreciate the innovation and creativity generated here. Btw, I was directed to this thread through another post, not sure how I missed this one, but it is really interesting.

 

Thanks very much for the feedback. more to come ;)

[neKroMancer]

Really interesting mechanics, reminds me of Mass effect 3 and Borderlands (Gunzerker and Mechromancer).

- I think overheat mechanic should be related to Corpus weapons due to the fact that they are energy-based weapon.

- Grineer weapon probably hit harder the longer you fire. Reload or stop shooting for a fixed period of time will reset the damage.

- Dual wielding shoot, imo, should be similar to Gunzerker's ability from Borderlands. Right click to shoot the right gun and left click to shoot the left gun. Sacrificing precision for raw damage. Won't go as far as Gunzerker ability to wield sniper in the right hand and rocket launcher in the left.

I believe that introducing new mechanics into these lines of weapon is the key to make them feel fresh and different from stock counterpart.

Great topic, really nice to see some fresh ideas.