Ember Rework (Update 15.11)

[Hybridon]

Hybridons Hot Spot 01: Ember

 

This is the first of a series I plan on doing, where I will strip down a subject, and try to detail the pros, cons and how to tweak them apropriately.

 

For this one we will focus on Ember, currently one of the least loved frames because of how badly she scales or adds on to the "meta endgame".

 

1. Stats:

 

Health - 100 | Shield - 100 | Armor - 15 | Power - 150 | Speed - 1.0

 

Ember is supposed to be a caster frame, revolving around a high power pool, low armor and average health and shields.

 

 

 

The biggest issue about this is that her power kit is all about getting up close to the enemy. As a matter of comparison, Mirage and Nova (both squishy caster frames) have 65 armor and 1.2 sprint speed, with less shields and/or health than Ember. While Nyx and Banshee, both frames with the same stats as Ember have a 1.1 sprint speed, as you can see on the comparison tables.

 

This ends up being rather hard on Ember. All the caster frames have skills that bring in protection in a big radius, such as Prism, Molecular Prime, Chaos, Sound Quake, providing the necessary CC when S#&$ hits the fan. And along with that have mobility/cheap CC/self-protection abilities such as Sonic Boom, Silence, Worm Hole, Absorb, Hall of Mirrors, Eclipse, while all Ember has going for her is Accelerant, that is more for the fire damage-boost, as the stun effect ends rather quick for the cost, and is currently bugged.

 

So to bring up Ember closer to her theme, and to these frames, her stats should be tweaked:

 

Armor - From 15 to 85

Sprint Speed - From 1.0 to 1.1

 

Reasoning is that she does much more close combat and needs that little extra speed and armor. She has to be either slow and tanky, or quick and squishy. Being squishy and slow completely screws her up.

 

Just to feel the pain, look at her profile video, its painful how slow she is:

 

 

Seems like the changes on her stats are good enough. She still feels a bit sluggish in the speed area, but nothing game breaking.

 

2. Abilities

 

Embers abilities, with exception towards Fireball, incentive close quarter encounters, yet rely on low damage and barely any CC. Along with that, her powers benefit from Duration, Range and Strength, you can't mod towards one aspect because it hurts a lot the other powers. This might need a better balance so that it isn't as punishing to mod her for certain aspects.

 

Along with that, to actually get decent damage, you need to use Accelerant, which has a slow duration stun, and is currently the only reliable CC, as the other powers need the fire to proc to actually be usable.

 

To sum it up, Ember needs more CC so that her going in close quarters isn't just suicidal. That doesn't mean give her back Overheat or anything even close to that, she has to continue being a squishy caster, but have a kit that can help her survive the quick paced combat that Warframe delivers.

 

Lets give a look at her powers, and the augments released up to date:

 

a) Fireball:

 

I really like this ability. After the tweaks it received its a really good #1, decent damage, a good enough AOE, and the fire proc makes it very useful to slow down priority targets, or set groups of enemies on fire. I do not see any changes necessary, as it gives a ranged spammable CC for Ember.

 

- Augment (Fire Frenzy). As for the augment, I like that it adds utility and team play to the ability, opening up the option for Ember players to go on a support role. Still a small tweak would be nice:

 

• If an ally is hit by the AOE explosion, he also gets affected by the power. Because it isn't hit-scan, you can easily miss allies running around. Adding this small change would make it really useful to buff an ally in melee range.

 

If you are afraid of people using it by grouping up squad members and using the AOE to hit all 3, you can add in that it wont affect more than a single member, being the closest member hit the one that gets the buff.

 

This little tweak makes it that little more useful, and adds up a bit of variety, where you can spice up those team mates that are in close quarters already.

 

b) Accelerant:

 

This is Embers best power. Has CC, adds damage and in a decent enough range.

 

At the moment I feel it only needs 2 tweaks:

 

• Fix the fact that you can't re-stun enemies that are still under the accelerant effect. The whole reason of this ability is to provide a small CC and damage boost, this needs to be fixed because it can get her killed pretty quick not being able to keep certain enemies stunned.

 

• Elements that are a combination of Fire + X (Cold, Eletric or Toxic) get 25% of the damage boost. Just note that it isn't 250% of the damage dealt, and yes 25% based on the fire damage multiplier.

 

The fix and the tweak would make her a bit more viable at buffing team mates damage, along with being able to re-stun, that is a major CC necessity for her.

 

 

c) Fireblast:

 

DE loves this skill for some reason, but keeps bashing there heads on a wall instead of making it useful. Before abilities where a part of frames, people would just mod it out. After that was changed, people just don't use it.

 

• Simple solution, change it to the Arson Eximus Fireblast. Gives the ability great CC by knocking down enemies in a radius. Only changes in comparison with Eximus units is make it expand quicker.

 

You can set the ability at a 20m range at max rank, with 25% chance to proc fire, meaning you have a chance at a second CC effect on some enemies. Increase the damage to 50/150/300/600. These changes gives ember the survivability she needs when in a tight situation, and makes a 75 energy cost worth it, and not a complete disappointment.

 

- Augment (Fire Fright) - This augment could stay the same if it worked.

 

Or, alternatively, Id like to see the fire hazard take place, where enemies on top of it take damage overtime, and can proc fire. It would be a good addition also to the power. Just to clarify, any Tenno (or allies) are invulnerable to the fire hazard. Its duration 4/5/6/7 seconds, extendable by mods, and range equal to the Fireblast. Damage and proc chances equal to the current fire hazard.

 

The proposed changes are to Fireblast are to make her kit more viable, cohesive and not overshadowed by Arson Eximus units. Currently it doesn't have any utility, deals ridiculous damage and adds nothing to the frame. It basically is the opposite of her kit that revolves around getting face to face with enemies, not planting a trap and waiting for them (that only works on melee enemies). The problem isn't just waiting for them, but the fact that when they come after Ember and enter the trap, it barely tickles them.

 

d) World on Fire

 

The power in itself is mid-tier. While it helps out Ember, it falls short when reaching mid and late game. The damage is low (400 per pillar), the duration is small (10 seconds), range isn't the best also (15m) along with a big cast animation (2.2 seconds). And the cost, 100 energy.

 

To make it a better ability, without changing too much, the changes I think that would fit in better with Embers playstyle:

- Casting animation reduced to 1.0 second.

- Change it to a toggle ability. Analyzing all the other frames that have toggle ultimates, the cost would be 25 energy on activation, and 9 energy per second. Currently the cost of the ability is 100 energy for 10 seconds, so that would be 10 per second. I reduced it to 9 to balance out the initial 25 cost. Meaning at 10 seconds you will have consumed 115 energy, but won't need to recast it.

- Damage and range stay the same, but the ability itself needs to add utility so it can synergize better with the close range stats.

- Ember increases her sprint speed to 1.3 (affected by Power Strength), Stamina increased to 150 (She has to sustain the ability to run) and the added effect of the first pillar on each enemy also has a blast proc, in order to knockdown close by enemies.

 

The changes add on to her theme, a caster that likes to see danger up close. Along with that deals with her extreme need for all mod types (duration, efficiency, strength and range) and makes her viable for late game with good CC and support, while still being able to deal some level of damage.

 

The changes have been lackluster. Her fireblast improved a bit, while WoF has been essentially nerfed. More on the edit.

 

3. Ember Prime

 

There are still two things that need to be addressed because of the current trend on new frames and prime frames.

 

The first is the fact that recent prime frames all have a golden effect + some stat changes. Ember Prime has none, along with not a single extra polarity.

 

While I don't think it is necessary to give her extra polarities, because of Nova Prime changes I think 15 extra health (From 100 to 115) and 15 power increase (150 to 165) would be perfectly fitting, without being OP, giving her that little extra survivability with health and casting capability.

 

As for the abilities, a golden trail on World of Fire would be a fine elegant touch to her prime counterpart. But this is mostly open for brainstorming.

 

4. Passives

 

This is the second aspect that needs to be looked at. Mesa, Mirage and Zephyr have passives, so nothing fairer than giving Ember a passive at the very least.

 

Personally I think it doesn't have to be anything extreme, so the most common idea to fit in her theme would be adding Fire Resistance.

It can be expanded and be a fire resistance for the whole team, or a fire resistance aura to add on to her theme.

Well I hope you guys managed to read it all. I know its a lot, but I try to enter details as much as possible, comparing Ember with other caster frames in order to better portray what she lacks and how to, possibly, fix it.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

EDIT: After her recent changes, Ember still lacks a few things, using too much energyto get on level with other frames, damage-wise, CC-wise, etc.

 

Here are the proposed final changes:

 

a) Fireblast needs either a damage boost and/or a cost reduction. It has low damage, and is highly unreliable at the moment. The ring that stays on the floor... still terrible. If you want, make it a fire aura that follows Ember dealing damage to whoever enters it.

 

b) Fireblast expanding ring should knockDOWN and not knockBACK enemies.

 

c) LOS issues have to be resolved. I have to see my targets in order for the expanding ring to hit them. While it shouldn't go through walls, atm if I cast Fireblast around a poll, any enemy behind the poll that I don't see upon casting don't get hit by the expanding aura. This is terrible.

 

d) Fireblast augment... doesn't work at all. Enemies won't panick.

 

e) World on Fire now costs more than it used to. If you build for a long duration, it costs a lot of energy. Make it a toggle, get rid of duration on the thing.

 

f) If you are keeping duration, add a final effect that makes it worth ending the ability before the duration, like Prism, so that the energy cost is understandable. Still, best is to make it a real toggle.

 

g) If you are keeping a target limit, add some form of CC, if not, get rid of the target limit. The ability has terrible range, low damage, no reliable CC... nothing. You need Accelerant to make it usable, and that means lots of energy used.

 

h) Still no passives? You could have used this pass on her to add a Passive or 2.

 

i) Ember Prime has a 25 armor buff, really? All other frames have more polarity slots, and the ones that have buffs have much better ones. Make it 50 so it goes on par with Nyx Prime, or give her, you know, something else like Nova prime has.

 

These are my considerations after these changes.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Hybridon

[Tostov]

I agree with pretty much all of these changes honestly, except for maybe fireblast, but I have no idea how to make that better.

My favorite idea would probably be toggle-able world on fire though. That would be really awesome. 

More armor is nice too, though I'd sort of rather see ember get closer to sayrn levels of armour, while keeping the lower HP pool. Accelerant re-stun is great as well.

Honestly, one of the biggest probelms with ember is that all her abilities really benefit from having power, duration and range, so unlike many other frames, she's nigh impossible to mod due to it.

[Hybridon]

I agree with pretty much all of these changes honestly, except for maybe fireblast, but I have no idea how to make that better.

My favorite idea would probably be toggle-able world on fire though. That would be really awesome. 

More armor is nice too, though I'd sort of rather see ember get closer to sayrn levels of armour, while keeping the lower HP pool. Accelerant re-stun is great as well.

Honestly, one of the biggest probelms with ember is that all her abilities really benefit from having power, duration and range, so unlike many other frames, she's nigh impossible to mod due to it.

 

Im open to ideas, just the current fireblast is extremely lackluster.

[Ryjeon]

Okay, giving the combined fire elements a minor boost from Accelerant sounds like a better trade-off that could let her share a little more of her bonus to team members. I've seen others recommending combined elements just take the full bonus and I think that would be too much, and I wouldn't want to see the bonus heat damage be nerfed to compensate. The heat bonus really is a spectacular effect it's just hard to say to team members "Hey guys everyone run corrosive projection and put heat damage on your weapons for a huge damage boost!"

[Tostov]

Im open to ideas, just the current fireblast is extremely lackluster.

Thing is, it suffers from the same issues that most stationary area denial does in warframe: Enemies die too fast to reach the AoE, or take so much damage that the AoE barely tickles them, the duration is too short to stack them effectively, and the abillity costs a significant amount of energy. Probably the best buff would be to increase the duration and give it a utility effect that helps offset the fact that it doesn't move or do much damage.

That being said, I really don't have any ideas on it really...

Edited January 6, 2015 by Tostov

[Hybridon]

Okay, giving the combined fire elements a minor boost from Accelerant sounds like a better trade-off that could let her share a little more of her bonus to team members. I've seen others recommending combined elements just take the full bonus and I think that would be too much, and I wouldn't want to see the bonus heat damage be nerfed to compensate. The heat bonus really is a spectacular effect it's just hard to say to team members "Hey guys everyone run corrosive projection and put heat damage on your weapons for a huge damage boost!"

 

Yep, was aiming to keep her fire theme, while still being able to have synergy with other frames and damage types.

 

Thing is, it suffers from the same issues that most stationary area denial does in warframe: Enemies die too fast to reach the AoE, or take so much damage that the AoE barely tickles them, the duration is too short to stack them effectively, and the abillity costs a significant amount of energy. Probably the best buff would be to increase the duration and give it a utility effect that helps offset the fact that it doesn't move or do much damage.

That being said, I really don't have any ideas on it really...

 

Along with the fact that her skill kit kind of incentives you going up close.

 

Ember needs a better CC so that she can withstand late game.

[Ryjeon]

What if we incorporate the Overheat mitigation and damage aura into World on Fire? It seems like it would fit thematically and perhaps what was overpowered as a standard ability would be appropriate as part of an ultimate.

[Azawarau]

I feel the need to point this out again

 

The difference between 15 and 65 armor is nearly nothing

 

Sprint speed wont help you avoid being hit at close range and would only serve for speed running

 

Ember has a radial stun that Nova,Mirage, and nyx lack

 

Nova is also overpowered with her CC in general

 

Embers damage boost is lower than banshees and CC lower but the function of the power is what makes it on par

 

She gets her DoT while being mobile along with a debuff/stun wrapped into one power

 

Banshee also has to choose between damage and utility more than ember, she cant have max damage boost and stun at the same time. The conflict

 

Adding other elementals to embers accelerant debuff just opens up more ult nuke spamming for frames like nova and oberon rather than actually adding to ember

 

The only big change ember neds is the toggleable WoF

 

Why?

 

First off the end of major mod conflicts

 

With a single duration mod for Accelerants debuff time you could have a higher attack range for both accelerant and WoF without resorting to overextended and killing the STR on both

 

WoF will act entirely as a DoT while accelrant actually becomes her nuke

 

When enemies are light you can run and gun with just WoF and when things get heavy you can rely on accelerant to turn your WoF into a nuke rather than a DoT with added stun

 

The problem isnt speed or armor or anything like it

 

Its just a mod and utility conflict that toggling fixes

[Hybridon]

What if we incorporate the Overheat mitigation and damage aura into World on Fire? It seems like it would fit thematically and perhaps what was overpowered as a standard ability would be appropriate as part of an ultimate.

 

While I understand where you come from, DE doesn't want her with anything similar to old Overheat. I like that idea, but I think it may be a bit too powerful, would need balancing.

 

I feel the need to point this out again

 

The difference between 15 and 65 armor is nearly nothing

 

Sprint speed wont help you avoid being hit at close range and would only serve for speed running

 

-snip-

 

Again? You never pointed it out before in this thread, so no need to start your post with that kind of sentence.

 

As for armor, you may think its nearly nothing, but it does make a difference, and I proposed a change to 85. As for sprint speed, if you think it only serves for speed runs, then sorry, you aren't playing at your full potential. The idea of making her faster is for her to reach the enemy faster, or, alternatively flee faster if under heavy pressure.

 

Many other things come to mind.

 

As for the rest, no, you can't compare her Accelerant to MP, MP has a damage boost, and gets enemies to slow down to a ridiculously slow speed, along with the fact that the damage boost is for any kind of damage.

As for the proposed changes to her Accelerant, it is to further increase its effectiveness, and not only be beneficial to Ember alone, as it ends up happening on most squads. Along with that, I proposed a smaller buff in order to keep balance and incentive trying to build squads with fire damage.

[Ryjeon]

Watch out guys ember threads are on a mod's watch list so avoid caustic tones or the issue won't gain traction. In order for DE to have the most comprehensive view of the situation everyone's opinion on the matter should be shared. I'm with Azawarau in that I think I have a pretty good idea of how to get really good mileage out of Ember's current kit, so I pretty much agree with his points.  But I've come to recognize that even if the frame is perfectly capable as is, it also does need to be made more appealing to more people. I think this accessible appeal is an important part of overall frame viability. Because she is unappealing most people don't take the time to understand her synergies and potential. And that knowledge is really important for getting the most out of Ember as a pilot and a teammate.

 

I think she can serve to be faster as a fire themed archetype. As a longtime player I have mastered a lot of techniques for moving around at the blink of an eye via sliding, wall-bumping, and melee maneuvers. But I recognize not everyone wants to play with those tools, and so base speed is a big factor in many people's play and perhaps an increase in this category would be a welcome change.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Hybridon]

Watch out guys ember threads are on a mod's watch list so avoid caustic tones or the issue won't gain traction. In order for DE to have the most comprehensive view of the situation everyone's opinion on the matter should be shared. I'm with Azawarau and I think I have a pretty good idea of how to get really good mileage out of Ember's current kit, so I pretty much agree with his points.  But I've come to recognize that even if the frame is perfectly capable as is it also does need to be made more appealing to more people. I think this accessible appeal is an important part of overall frame viability. Because she is unappealing most people don't take the time to understand her synergies and potential. And that knowledge is really important for getting the most out of Ember as a pilot and a teammate.

 

I think she can serve to be faster as a fire themed archetype. As longtime player I have mastered a lot of techniques for moving around at the blink of an eye via sliding, wall-bumping, and melee maneuvers. But I recognize not everyone wants to play with those tools, and so base speed is a big factor in many people's play and perhaps an increase in this category would be a welcome change.

 

Adding on to that, increasing her speed won't nullify other movement skills, it actually enhances them.

 

I tried simple changes in order to make her kit synergy more towards team play than only her. Only drastic change I propose is towards fireblast, that i think is one of the most lackluster powers in Warframe and is completely against her proposed role.

[Azawarau]

While I understand where you come from, DE doesn't want her with anything similar to old Overheat. I like that idea, but I think it may be a bit too powerful, would need balancing.

 

 

Again? You never pointed it out before in this thread, so no need to start your post with that kind of sentence.

 

As for armor, you may think its nearly nothing, but it does make a difference, and I proposed a change to 85. As for sprint speed, if you think it only serves for speed runs, then sorry, you aren't playing at your full potential. The idea of making her faster is for her to reach the enemy faster, or, alternatively flee faster if under heavy pressure.

 

Many other things come to mind.

 

As for the rest, no, you can't compare her Accelerant to MP, MP has a damage boost, and gets enemies to slow down to a ridiculously slow speed, along with the fact that the damage boost is for any kind of damage.

As for the proposed changes to her Accelerant, it is to further increase its effectiveness, and not only be beneficial to Ember alone, as it ends up happening on most squads. Along with that, I proposed a smaller buff in order to keep balance and incentive trying to build squads with fire damage.

I never said ive pointed it out in this thread before

 

Ive pointed it out in many other ember threads including the one that was just locked. If theres a problem with that then its on you really

 

When ember can more viably use accelerant she wont need speed to run away or approach

 

Shell have both wrapped up in a 2 for her. Im not saying its not needed without a reason

 

You cant compare anything to M prime because its overpowered in its current implementation

 

Even so Accelerant has a far higher damage boost for its type and Direct CC at the very least

 

Squads dont have to build for fire damage

 

The boost is for Ember more than anything and is more than enough to carry its weight in use with Ember alone

 

 

 

Watch out guys ember threads are on a mod's watch list so avoid caustic tones or the issue won't gain traction. In order for DE to have the most comprehensive view of the situation everyone's opinion on the matter should be shared. I'm with Azawarau in that I think I have a pretty good idea of how to get really good mileage out of Ember's current kit, so I pretty much agree with his points.  But I've come to recognize that even if the frame is perfectly capable as is, it also does need to be made more appealing to more people. I think this accessible appeal is an important part of overall frame viability. Because she is unappealing most people don't take the time to understand her synergies and potential. And that knowledge is really important for getting the most out of Ember as a pilot and a teammate.

 

I think she can serve to be faster as a fire themed archetype. As a longtime player I have mastered a lot of techniques for moving around at the blink of an eye via sliding, wall-bumping, and melee maneuvers. But I recognize not everyone wants to play with those tools, and so base speed is a big factor in many people's play and perhaps an increase in this category would be a welcome change.

I do feel ember needs a buff more than most frames

 

Just not the kinds people suggest that only give her a gimmick or crutch or something useless that doesnt actually help ember

 

WoF toggle is the answer

 

Her 2 becomes a super nuke while her 4 is an amazing DoT

 

She can stun damage and face off anything close up

 

She can become extremely sustainable and rewarding for players who stay by enemies to make the most out of WoF

Edited January 6, 2015 by Azawarau

[Holynight6]

Good evening gentlefolk.

My only problem with having accelerant give additional damage to combo elements is that no one, as far as I've seen, actually uses fire combo elements. Radiation maybe, but never blast or gas. But that's an arguement for another time.

Only thing I'd change from your original post is that hp buff on prime. 115 makes the inner OCD cry. Considering we have the fastest shield regen speed, why not buff the shields to 125? With the proposed kit she could just get the normal 65 armour and be fine.

Still salivating from those requested changes though. So juicy!

Edited January 7, 2015 by Holynight6

[Hybridon]

Good evening gentlefolk.

My only problem with having accelerant give additional damage to combo elements is that no one, as far as I've seen, actually uses fire combo elements. Radiation maybe, but never blast or gas. But that's an arguement for another time.

Only thing I'd change from your original post is that hp buff on prime. 115 makes the inner OCD cry. Considering we have the fastest shield regen speed, why not buff the shields to 125? With the proposed kit she could just get the normal 65 armour and be fine.

Still salivating from those requested changes though. So juicy!

 

My reasoning on adding health, and not shields, is that Ember is mostly portrayed as an infested destroyer, thus why I chose health over shields :)

[akira_him]

I feel the need to point this out again

 

The difference between 15 and 65 armor is nearly nothing

 

Sprint speed wont help you avoid being hit at close range and would only serve for speed running

 

Ember has a radial stun that Nova,Mirage, and nyx lack

 

Nova is also overpowered with her CC in general

 

Embers damage boost is lower than banshees and CC lower but the function of the power is what makes it on par

 

She gets her DoT while being mobile along with a debuff/stun wrapped into one power

 

Banshee also has to choose between damage and utility more than ember, she cant have max damage boost and stun at the same time. The conflict

 

Adding other elementals to embers accelerant debuff just opens up more ult nuke spamming for frames like nova and oberon rather than actually adding to ember

 

The only big change ember neds is the toggleable WoF

 

Why?

 

First off the end of major mod conflicts

 

With a single duration mod for Accelerants debuff time you could have a higher attack range for both accelerant and WoF without resorting to overextended and killing the STR on both

 

WoF will act entirely as a DoT while accelrant actually becomes her nuke

 

When enemies are light you can run and gun with just WoF and when things get heavy you can rely on accelerant to turn your WoF into a nuke rather than a DoT with added stun

 

The problem isnt speed or armor or anything like it

 

Its just a mod and utility conflict that toggling fixes

Nyx: the radical stun is Chaos(with minimum duration, because mind control mostly doesn't worth it due to buggy AI for heavy units) and Absorb(Okay, it is knockdown, it also serves as a effective damage migration)

 

Mirage: radial blind in prism, I am pretty sure it is a stun, and damage migration from eclipse/hall of mirrors

 

Banshee: Silence's stun is not affected by duration nor stackable, but have no LoS, and she got sonic boom to keep enemies away from her (+stun in some enemies, mostly knockdown, decent CC as skill 1).

Sonar x5 multiplier to ALL damage types that last very long and stacks(double of accelerant)

 

Nova: in fact she is a buff/debuff frame, not a damage dealer (shown by the antimatter drop mechanic that allows teammates to shot the drop)

all damage is not instantly applied

 

=====

Ember stats changes is to fit her theme, fire spreads very fast, but ember is almost the slowest among all

Armor increases would not help much, but it helps, that matters

and OP did mention making WoF toggable

Edited January 7, 2015 by akira_him

[Azawarau]

Nyx: the radical stun is Chaos(with minimum duration, because mind control mostly doesn't worth it due to buggy AI for heavy units) and Absorb(Okay, it is knockdown, it also serves as a effective damage migration)

 

Mirage: radial blind in prism, I am pretty sure it is a stun, and damage migration from eclipse/hall of mirrors

 

Banshee: Silence's stun is not affected by duration nor stackable, but have no LoS, and she got sonic boom to keep enemies away from her (+stun in some enemies, mostly knockdown, decent CC as skill 1).

Sonar x5 multiplier to ALL damage types that last very long and stacks(double of accelerant)

 

Nova: in fact she is a buff/debuff frame, not a damage dealer (shown by the antimatter drop mechanic that allows teammates to shot the drop)

all damage is not instantly applied

 

=====

Ember stats changes is to fit her theme, fire spreads very fast, but ember is almost the slowest among all

Armor increases would not help much, but it helps, that matters

and OP did mention making WoF toggable

None of those frames have a spammable stun

 

And other than nova and mirage under ideal circumstances none of them can match embers damage

 

The speed wont be needed with toggleable WoF

 

Itll just be used as a rush tool rather than a useful utility

[rockscl]

You know what, you rework suggestion has my +1, but i would change Ember`s ult for a freaking phoenix form, hell yeah

[akira_him]

None of those frames have a spammable stun

 

And other than nova and mirage under ideal circumstances none of them can match embers damage

 

The speed wont be needed with toggleable WoF

 

Itll just be used as a rush tool rather than a useful utility

Hell people already rushing with copters+nukes, rushing is the problem of people, not the tool

chaos is spammable

These frame all have decent CC/damage migration so they don't need a spammable stun

These frames has at least 2 from stun/CC/damage migration, all ember has is only stun since DE don't like damage migration we had on Ember

Accelerant is a debuff, not CC (CC is bonus, just like silence), fireblast is the CC of Ember (which acts like a stun in most of the time)

Accelerant cannot affect the same target twice before the duration ends, spamming it(usually it means max efficiency, with hurts duration a lot, prime streamline may help) will make you cannot attack useless using WoF

The AI is programmed to avoid the fire ring, making it sucks as a CC

I believe it is true that a skill should synergies with other skills, which is well done by ember, but a skill should also functions well on its own

fireball and accelerant is fine as is in this case,

but not fireblast and WoF, the most-of-the-time-non-functional CC component hardly count as CC (WoF proc is too random)

these 2 skills need more than "make WoF toggle"

Edited January 7, 2015 by akira_him

[ZechsX18999]

All great ideas. As a veteran with 1800+ hours and Ember as my most played Warframe, I agree completely. 

 

These would all be pretty big buffs, but Ember is so underpowered right now that even with these buffs, Ember  would not be OP.

Edited January 7, 2015 by ZechsX18999

[Azawarau]

Hell people already rushing with copters+nukes, rushing is the problem of people, not the tool

chaos is spammable

These frame all have decent CC/damage migration so they don't need a spammable stun

These frames has at least 2 from stun/CC/damage migration, all ember has is only stun since DE don't like damage migration we had on Ember

Accelerant is a debuff, not CC (CC is bonus, just like silence), fireblast is the CC of Ember (which acts like a stun in most of the time)

Accelerant cannot affect the same target twice before the duration ends, spamming it(usually it means max efficiency, with hurts duration a lot, prime streamline may help) will make you cannot attack useless using WoF

The AI is programmed to avoid the fire ring, making it sucks as a CC

I believe it is true that a skill should synergies with other skills, which is well done by ember, but a skill should also functions well on its own

fireball and accelerant is fine as is in this case,

but not fireblast and WoF, the most-of-the-time-non-functional CC component hardly count as CC (WoF proc is too random)

these 2 skills need more than "make WoF toggle"

If you can move fast without run speed then why add it?

 

Accelerant is literally her CC and damage mitigation

 

Why do people constantly act like it doesnt exist?

 

Ember has fireball 100% proc

 

Fire blast 100% proc

 

Accelerant guaranteed stun

 

3 CCs

 

Warcry is a buff with a CC bonus tacked on

 

Accelerant c an legitly CC large groups of enemies for long periods of time and debuff heavily. Can you show how it doesnt CC efficiently?

 

15 meters of enemies that get 100% fire proc that is being ignored

 

And completely ignoring the benefits of WoF being a toggle

 

extra mod slots and flexibility

 

Nuke button transferring to 2 which is also her stun

 

More energy efficiency and less time spent casting her only slow power

 

More synergy with mods and powers with less drawbacks

 

If you think toggleable WoF isnt going to fix ember then you need to take a good hard relook over the idea

 

Something flew over your head

[Hybridon]

If you think toggleable WoF isnt going to fix ember then you need to take a good hard relook over the idea

 

Something flew over your head

 

Great way to validate your point.

 

You believe only making her ult a toggle will fix Ember, and because other people think differently, then they are all wrong and only you right?

 

Ember, in her current state, making her ult a toggle will only be a small buff.

 

It wont change that her CC power is low duration and doesnt scale well into late game, as it only boosts fire damage, and when you get to higher levels spamming might kill your energy pool quick. She needs a better CC.

 

Her Fireblast guaranteed fire proc is abysmal, it only procs guaranteed when the skill is casted, that has a mediocre size and mediocre damage. Enemies avoid it after its casted, and to actually get many enemies to get the proc, you have to come up close... while being a very squishy and slow frame, with average health and shields.

 

So making WoF wont fix how she is UP compared to all other caster frames:

- Banshee does a better job at CC with 2 stuns (1 that cant be recast, but follows her), along with a better damage boost that benefits ANY kind of damage, along with a spammable #1 that gets her out of tight situations.

 

- Nova has a 4 that slows enemies and gives damage. Has a very powerful damaging power, her #2, and has her portals to get out of tight situations. Her #1 is terrible, and Id advocate for a buff adding a guaranteed stagger, but thats for another thread.

 

- Nyx has Mind Control where you can get high priority targets to play for you, has Chaos that is an amazing CC and Absorb that gets her out of tight situations, deals damage and has a small CC with its knockback. Her Psychic Bolts are terrible, and instead of fixing it DE gave it a band-aid fix with the augment.

 

- Mirage has an ult that deals more damage and stuns. A damage mitigator/increase with Eclipse and Halls of Mirrors that grants her extra protection along with also a damage boost from the damage the clones deliver. Her #2 is lackluster, but still, a very powerful kit.

 

What do all of these have in common? They deliver damage better, they deliver CC better, and all of them have at least 1.1 speed, making them have an edge in battle. Especially with recent changes that grant extra chance of enemies missing based on your mobility.

 

 

So if you cant understand why Ember needs more than change WoF to a toggle, try reading and play testing a bit more. If you think adding speed is only for speed runs, then you are doing something very wrong on a game that relies on high mobility with a quick paced combat system.

 

Cheers.

[akira_him]

If you can move fast without run speed then why add it?

Accelerant is literally her CC and damage mitigation

Why do people constantly act like it doesnt exist?

Ember has fireball 100% proc

Fire blast 100% proc

Accelerant guaranteed stun

3 CCs

Warcry is a buff with a CC bonus tacked on

Accelerant c an legitly CC large groups of enemies for long periods of time and debuff heavily. Can you show how it doesnt CC efficiently?

15 meters of enemies that get 100% fire proc that is being ignored

And completely ignoring the benefits of WoF being a toggle

extra mod slots and flexibility

Nuke button transferring to 2 which is also her stun

More energy efficiency and less time spent casting her only slow power

More synergy with mods and powers with less drawbacks

If you think toggleable WoF isnt going to fix ember then you need to take a good hard relook over the idea

Something flew over your head

Okay I checked the ember's profile video by DE and accelerant was meant to be the CC, my fault, then DE needs to fix the stun as OP said

making WoF toggle is good

but DE stance on toggle abilities is while activated, no energy can be recovered by any means

if you need to spam accelerant in order to protect yourself while using WoF, I wonder if energy pool sustain long enough as accelerant has a shorter range than most CC abilities and you always move around if you use WoT

This also make fire blast redundant in terms of both CC(accelerant does better with lower cost) and DoT (WoF), that's what I mean when I say "ember needs more than making WoF toggle"

Speed buff: the guy above just explained that

Edited January 7, 2015 by akira_him

[Azawarau]

Great way to validate your point.

 

You believe only making her ult a toggle will fix Ember, and because other people think differently, then they are all wrong and only you right?

 

Ember, in her current state, making her ult a toggle will only be a small buff.

 

It wont change that her CC power is low duration and doesnt scale well into late game, as it only boosts fire damage, and when you get to higher levels spamming might kill your energy pool quick. She needs a better CC.

 

Her Fireblast guaranteed fire proc is abysmal, it only procs guaranteed when the skill is casted, that has a mediocre size and mediocre damage. Enemies avoid it after its casted, and to actually get many enemies to get the proc, you have to come up close... while being a very squishy and slow frame, with average health and shields.

 

So making WoF wont fix how she is UP compared to all other caster frames:

- Banshee does a better job at CC with 2 stuns (1 that cant be recast, but follows her), along with a better damage boost that benefits ANY kind of damage, along with a spammable #1 that gets her out of tight situations.

 

- Nova has a 4 that slows enemies and gives damage. Has a very powerful damaging power, her #2, and has her portals to get out of tight situations. Her #1 is terrible, and Id advocate for a buff adding a guaranteed stagger, but thats for another thread.

 

- Nyx has Mind Control where you can get high priority targets to play for you, has Chaos that is an amazing CC and Absorb that gets her out of tight situations, deals damage and has a small CC with its knockback. Her Psychic Bolts are terrible, and instead of fixing it DE gave it a band-aid fix with the augment.

 

- Mirage has an ult that deals more damage and stuns. A damage mitigator/increase with Eclipse and Halls of Mirrors that grants her extra protection along with also a damage boost from the damage the clones deliver. Her #2 is lackluster, but still, a very powerful kit.

 

What do all of these have in common? They deliver damage better, they deliver CC better, and all of them have at least 1.1 speed, making them have an edge in battle. Especially with recent changes that grant extra chance of enemies missing based on your mobility.

 

 

So if you cant understand why Ember needs more than change WoF to a toggle, try reading and play testing a bit more. If you think adding speed is only for speed runs, then you are doing something very wrong on a game that relies on high mobility with a quick paced combat system.

 

Cheers.

No

 

You downplaying embers strengths and not genuinely looking at the advantages is whats making me say that

 

Banshees 3 stuns once over its duration and range clashes with all of her other abilities. Either stun them close up and have your other powers fall short or stun from far away

 

Banshees damage buff also does this. Overextended for more range but less strength or no overextended to lower your CCs efficiency

 

Also her ult for range Vs utility and power. Banshee can beat ember in buff damage or CC arguably but not both at once

 

Thats the advantage of accelerant and thats entirely ignoring WoF power that banshee cant match

 

You can twist words all you want but that doesnt change that youre babyigg embers flaws

 

 

Okay I checked the ember's profile video by DE and accelerant was meant to be the CC, my fault, then DE needs to fix the stun as OP said

making WoF toggle is good

but DE stance on toggle abilities is while activated, no energy can be recovered by any means

if you need to spam accelerant in order to protect yourself while using WoF, I wonder if energy pool sustain long enough as accelerant has a shorter range than most CC abilities and you always move around if you use WoT

This also make fire blast redundant in terms of both CC(accelerant does better with lower cost) and DoT (WoF), that's what I mean when I say "ember needs more than making WoF toggle"

You can gain energy from orb drops cant you?

 

Ember gets something like 600? energy with her helmet and primed flow (Not sure how high it is without the helm) so even for extreme burst damage then energy collecting shes got things going for her

 

Dont forget that theres Fleeting that will reduce embers energy cost without hurting her powers too much. Energy efficiency isnt much of an issue there

 

Fire blast is arguably the odd one out

 

The best change would be to add a heat DoT inside the circle and allow it to be affected by range

 

Fire freight may have to be changed afterwards

[Hybridon]

Im not downplaying anybodys strengths, just go to any high level play and see how many people are rocking ember.

 

Id take Banshee over her any day, and thats where the problem is, frames should all have there uses and team up well.

 

Ember has a short stun, and it is really short, not enough to revive a downed team mate. A target hit by accelerant cant be re-stunned until accelerants effects end, so go up to a pack of heavy gunners and enjoy stunning them once and then getting gunned down.

 

Making her a toggle will only fix her #4 that is under par to most, if not all, ultimates in the game. It won't fix the frame. WoF delivers only damage, that again, on high level play wears off easily. It has barely any form of CC and hits single targets.

 

Her #1 is the only decent ability, and the proposed change I asked for is for her augment, to enhance even more team play.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Hybridon

[akira_him]

No

 

You downplaying embers strengths and not genuinely looking at the advantages is whats making me say that

 

Banshees 3 stuns once over its duration and range clashes with all of her other abilities. Either stun them close up and have your other powers fall short or stun from far away

 

Banshees damage buff also does this. Overextended for more range but less strength or no overextended to lower your CCs efficiency

 

Also her ult for range Vs utility and power. Banshee can beat ember in buff damage or CC arguably but not both at once

 

Thats the advantage of accelerant and thats entirely ignoring WoF power that banshee cant match

 

You can twist words all you want but that doesnt change that youre babyigg embers flaws

 

 

You can gain energy from orb drops cant you?

 

Ember gets something like 600? energy with her helmet and primed flow (Not sure how high it is without the helm) so even for extreme burst damage then energy collecting shes got things going for her

 

Dont forget that theres Fleeting that will reduce embers energy cost without hurting her powers too much. Energy efficiency isnt much of an issue there

 

Fire blast is arguably the odd one out

 

The best change would be to add a heat DoT inside the circle and allow it to be affected by range

 

Fire freight may have to be changed afterwards

From testing in archwing using iztal with vacuum you cannot recover energy with orbs

Banshee 3stuns have the same, if not longer range than all ember's abilities, stretch is already enough for most tileset