"prime" As An Upgrade Rather Than A Replacement

[Aktriaz]

This is a redo of an older thread I made. Probably because of my inability to articulate my point, or people's inability to read and understand properly (or a mix of both), many people were not seeing what I was suggesting. Some people did see what I was trying to communicate, and even articulated it better than me. So, I'm going to try this again, and hopefully you'll read more closely, and I'll have communicated it better.

 

So a while back, I made a thread discussing the matter of prime weapons making the original useless in front of the prime version, which is completely stand alone from the original. I had a poll for this, and by a small amount, "Prime should be an upgrade" won over "Prime should be a replacement".

 

The thread in case you care.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/430868-prime-should-feel-more-like-an-upgrade-rather-than-a-replacement-poll-included/

 

So, because it appeared to be that most people were not seeing exactly what I was suggesting, I'm going to go into greater depth of what I was suggesting, explaining it as if it was a part of the game.

 

In order to obtain a Prime weapon/warframe, you'll first need to obtain the original and level it to 30. Then, you must obtain the parts and blueprint of the prime version, and build that. Building the "prime version" will not give you a weapon, rather an upgrade you apply to the non-prime weapon, akin to that of forma and catalysts/reactors. When applied, it will then become "prime" and reset to rank 0, but keep any polarities and catalysts/reactors put into the weapon.

 

This way, the Mastery Points obtained through the primes/originals remains and can still be obtained, and the player doesn't have their teeth kicked in when they have to sell their 6-forma Vectis to make room for the Prime. Seriously. Only problem I see is with Prime access, but that would only need a couple small changes, though I could see it working fine. Just give people an option between the usable item and the upgrade, BOOM Prime Access still works.

 

What about people that already have the Prime version?

Nothing will change for them. The prime as a usable item will remain as it is, but blueprints and parts will need the original to be used.

 

This idea doesn't work because of lore.

Challenge accepted.

The "prime" parts you obtain ARE obtained because they cannot be replicated. The rest of the weapon can be built with materials found across the solar system. Hence why you need to search for the prime parts themselves, and why the newer replicas are weaker; because they are made without using the "prime" parts.

 

There, I hope I communicated this point better this time...

Lets try to have an actual discussion about this, instead of some people jumping to conclusions and other people trying to explain what I was actually trying to say. (Seriously; it was a mess)

Have a nice day.

[GinKenshin]

I see nothing wrong with it

but does the prime upgrade have the stat of the original weapon? 

[Cyborg-Rox]

Sounds pretty promising.  I've yet to forma a later primed weapon myself, but I can imagine it must be pretty frustrating putting that much work into a weapon you like, only to have the exact same weapon, only better, be released.

[Raniu]

I find the idea of yours a very good, creative and balanced one.

 

The player doesn't have their teeth kicked in when they have to sell their 6-forma Vectis to make room for the Prime.

 

Yeah, that's what players need. The infinitive grind should be reduced.

 

 

prime weapons making the original useless in front of the prime version.

 

You should highlight that by the original you mean the non-primed version of weapon that a player has in his inventory. that could've been what some weren't getting lol.

 

Also, voted on your poll :)

[Dirty_H4rr1]

 

This idea doesn't work because of lore.

Challenge accepted.

The "prime" parts you obtain ARE obtained because they cannot be replicated. The rest of the weapon can be built with materials found across the solar system. Hence why you need to search for the prime parts themselves, and why the newer replicas are weaker; because they are made without using the "prime" parts.

 

 

I see what you mean, but weapons and their prime counterparts are very different weapons. Also, making a "prime" weapon with spare materials instead of the original prime parts wouldn't make it prime, just like a salvaged, improvised version of it, which would be better than the normal weapon, but worse that the original prime version.

[Grom-84]

No! You will spend less formas and catalysts this way which is undesirable, since those cataysts and reactors so rare nobody will purchase them from store and this will result that developers will gain less money and starve to death. Spending formas and catalysts all the time on weapons buying them from the store - thats how it supposed to work! so no easy ways for you - deal with it!

[Lightsmith]

I see what you mean, but weapons and their prime counterparts are very different weapons. Also, making a "prime" weapon with spare materials instead of the original prime parts wouldn't make it prime, just like a salvaged, improvised version of it, which would be better than the normal weapon, but worse that the original prime version.

That is slightly up to debate. Technically we build Prime frames from scratch. The question is, what make a weapon "prime" we know they are from Orokin era, but so are we, so it could be possible we Tenno can craft Orokin tech

[Dirty_H4rr1]

That is slightly up to debate. Technically we build Prime frames from scratch. The question is, what make a weapon "prime" we know they are from Orokin era, but so are we, so it could be possible we Tenno can craft Orokin tech

 

We don't make primes from scratch, we use the original blueprints and parts, and, how it recently happened with frost and some weapons, they are limited.

[Aktriaz]

No! You will spend less formas and catalysts this way which is undesirable, since those cataysts and reactors so rare nobody will purchase them from store and this will result that developers will gain less money and starve to death. Spending formas and catalysts all the time on weapons buying them from the store - thats how it supposed to work! so no easy ways for you - deal with it!

I'm pretty sure catalysts and reactors are only a small fraction of DE's income.

 

If they ever get into some financial danger all they have to do is release some cosmetics.

And that's not even counting the money that goes into trading.

 

You worry too much. DE is no danger, and even if they were, I'm pretty sure they could come up with something to get out of it.

[Grom-84]

No, indeed they are! give a small amount of freedom here, and there, remove some limitations - and here you go, nobody will buy platinum! 

[Aktriaz]

No, indeed they are! give a small amount of freedom here, and there, remove some limitations - and here you go, nobody will buy platinum! 

You must be a fairly new player to be thinking like that.

 

As a veteran, (2000+ hrs on steam) I can't remember the last time I actually went to the marketplace and bought a catalyst or reactor. The few that come from alerts and devstreams are enough for the few weapons I will actually add to my arsenal. Stuff like cosmetics, prime parts, warframe and weapon slots, and rare mods are what brings in most of DE's funds. If you spend any time at all in trading, watching or dealing, it's easy to see the platinum circulated there.

 

All of the normal weapons that HAVE a prime version are dubbed "mastery fodder" anyway, so people won't be putting any forma or catalysts in those weapons anyway.

[Grom-84]

You must be a fairly new player to be thinking like that.

 

As a veteran, (2000+ hrs on steam) I can't remember the last time I actually went to the marketplace and bought a catalyst or reactor. The few that come from alerts and devstreams are enough for the few weapons I will actually add to my arsenal. Stuff like cosmetics, prime parts, warframe and weapon slots, and rare mods are what brings in most of DE's funds. If you spend any time at all in trading, watching or dealing, it's easy to see the platinum circulated there.

 

All of the normal weapons that HAVE a prime version are dubbed "mastery fodder" anyway, so people won't be putting any forma or catalysts in those weapons anyway.

For my 240 spend hours in the game i seen only 4 alerts with potatoes, 2 of them were catalysts, the other one was reactor and the last one was insane "Lotus Gift" with 25-30 lvl greneers on excavation mission type which i can not handle even with strong team, everyone just quited from that hell 12-16 rank veterans). x8 of that amount and i will get only the half of catalysts/reactors which i need, it's another half of a year playing, so yeah i'm close to buying those from the market since they are so extremely rare and there is no other way to obtain them.  

[Aktriaz]

For my 240 spend hours in the game i seen only 4 alerts with potatoes, 2 of them were catalysts, the other one was reactor and the last one was insane "Lotus Gift" with 25-30 lvl greneers on excavation mission type which i can not handle even with strong team, everyone just quited from that hell 12-16 rank veterans). x8 of that amount and i will get only the half of catalysts/reactors which i need, it's another half of a year playing, so yeah i'm close to buying those from the market since they are so extremely rare and there is no other way to obtain them.  

Fair enough. Though with the few weapons that are actually considered "viable", so veterans eventually end up stockpiling catalysts and reactors. I have like 12 reactor bps that I'm probably never going to use.

 

You'll get there eventually.

 

Though tell me; would you put a catalyst into a weapon that has a Prime version? No you won't. That's silly. You'll save it for when you get all the prime parts and build that.

 

And remember; this change only affects the weapons that can actually HAVE a prime version. All Corpus, Grineer, and Infested weapons have not (and probably will not) get a prime version. It's not even halving the theoretical amount of catalysts people would buy.

 

Funny how you talk about how rare catalysts and reactors are, when what I'm suggesting is a way your catalysts and reactors don't get flushed down the toilet every time a new series of Prime Items come out. And that's not even counting the time and forma invested into warframes and weapons.

 

I'm having trouble seeing where you stand on the matter.

Do you think DE needs to have REQUIRED items for cash only? That's Pay to Win, and nobody likes that.

Just cosmetics would be fine, and lots of people (myself included) will spend a good amount of money on that sh*t.

 

I love DE, and would hate to see them go out of business, but a game that is advertised as "free to play" should not REQUIRE the player to spend money on something they absolutely need to advance in the game.

 

The game does offer some of those every so often, so I can't really say it's locked behind a pay wall, but I can't say I don't feel betrayed after my favorite weapon, of which I have spent hours upon hours upgrading, gets an entirely superior upgrade that is completely standalone from the one I have. Has this ever happened to you? If not, then there's nothing I can really do to force my opinion on you.

 

Try picturing yourself forma'ing something a good 6 times, plus spending the oh-so precious catalyst, then having to sell it to make room for a weapon that's better in every way, having to fork over all that forma, time, and a catalyst all over again.

 

It's not a fun feeling.

[ClockworkSpectre]

I like it, especially the part about having to level the original version of the weapon first.  It seems like a much more reasonable system to me, as well as providing a sense of progression in the process of getting your weapons/frames, something the game is sorely lacking. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by ClockworkSpectre

[Nyktelios]

Time ago I was talking exactly about this issue with a friend, and this was exactly the point we thought the foundry overall in Warframe (not only for Primed weapons) should work. The way your proposal works will allow an organic growth of the experience of the game, improving your frames and weapons with better counterparts.

 

A good example could be the Braton: Once you begin the game, you get a MK1-Braton. Later on, you'll be able to upgrade your MK1 to a regular version of the Braton. Finally, you'll be able, via your proposed system, to get a Braton Prime. You won't have three different weapons, just an improved weapon of similar characteristics that has grown with you. This is an important point: you must level up the MK1 Braton, then the Braton, then the Braton Prime to get the final version of the weapon.

 

Of course there will still be "standalone" weapons (Dojo, events, Stalker set...) but will be more a matter of collectors and prestige holding them.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Nyktelios

[Similon]

Just to address some points raised in the thread
Priming Grineer/Corpus Weapons

I see no reason why this can't happen, especially when you consider it already has. The Braton is a Corpus made knock-off. All it takes is for DE to say "Oh the Grakata is based on Orokin designs the Grineer found" and the Grakata prime comes to be.

 

Primes are relics of a bygone era

This isn't W40k, they have 20,000 year old rifles, not us. From everything I've seen, the non-prime variants are based on the weapons.

It's like a JAC A6, or an iFone. It may look similar, and do the same job. But it's a shoddy fake. Our prime variants are based on the original blueprints, rather than whatever they managed to reverse engineer. 

 

On topic: It's a nice idea, but since I like to keep all my originals, I would have to build 2 of anything that eventually gets primed... But that's not a problem.

[Luixls]

I've been thinking the same about prime weapons/warframes. This is really what it should be done, hopefully the community will not enrage like they always do.

[Aktriaz]

Priming Grineer/Corpus Weapons

I see no reason why this can't happen, especially when you consider it already has. The Braton is a Corpus made knock-off. All it takes is for DE to say "Oh the Grakata is based on Orokin designs the Grineer found" and the Grakata prime comes to be.

The thing about the Braton is it's in a weird place.

The Corpus don't use bullet-based weapons (hence why the Snipetron was removed), yet it has Corpus text on it. I'd go as far as saying the "Corpus-made" Braton (or at least the "remake") isn't really canon. DE could remove it for the same reason they removed the Snipetron; "Corpus weapons don't use bullets". Problem is, the Braton is a starter weapon, and they currently do not have a weapon of similar strength to replace it as a starter. I'd just say the textures of the Braton aren't canon, and DE's to lazy/busy to change them.

 

If the Braton IS a Corpus weapon, then it should have been removed along with the Snipetron.

 

Braton is the only instance of this happening ("Corpus" weapon getting a Prime), so I can only assume it is an oversight. I can't really prove it, but I strongly believe the Braton's textures are a neglected placeholder, back before the game even had a sliver of lore to follow.

 

But... true. DE could just slap lore (and players) in the face and say "lol Kerpus an Infesid an Grener have Prims now gtfo". But I like to think DE has SOME integrity.

[Grom-84]

Fair enough. Though with the few weapons that are actually considered "viable", so veterans eventually end up stockpiling catalysts and reactors. I have like 12 reactor bps that I'm probably never going to use.

 

You'll get there eventually.

 

Though tell me; would you put a catalyst into a weapon that has a Prime version? No you won't. That's silly. You'll save it for when you get all the prime parts and build that.

 

And remember; this change only affects the weapons that can actually HAVE a prime version. All Corpus, Grineer, and Infested weapons have not (and probably will not) get a prime version. It's not even halving the theoretical amount of catalysts people would buy.

 

Funny how you talk about how rare catalysts and reactors are, when what I'm suggesting is a way your catalysts and reactors don't get flushed down the toilet every time a new series of Prime Items come out. And that's not even counting the time and forma invested into warframes and weapons.

 

I'm having trouble seeing where you stand on the matter.

Do you think DE needs to have REQUIRED items for cash only? That's Pay to Win, and nobody likes that.

Just cosmetics would be fine, and lots of people (myself included) will spend a good amount of money on that sh*t.

 

I love DE, and would hate to see them go out of business, but a game that is advertised as "free to play" should not REQUIRE the player to spend money on something they absolutely need to advance in the game.

 

The game does offer some of those every so often, so I can't really say it's locked behind a pay wall, but I can't say I don't feel betrayed after my favorite weapon, of which I have spent hours upon hours upgrading, gets an entirely superior upgrade that is completely standalone from the one I have. Has this ever happened to you? If not, then there's nothing I can really do to force my opinion on you.

 

Try picturing yourself forma'ing something a good 6 times, plus spending the oh-so precious catalyst, then having to sell it to make room for a weapon that's better in every way, having to fork over all that forma, time, and a catalyst all over again.

 

It's not a fun feeling.

Actualy i prefer some regular weapons and warframes over primed ones, for example regular orthos, or paris, or frost, or nyx those look like the actual weapons and not like some decorative toys. I agree that it's painful, i hate that catalysts and formas serve as consumables, but that how it meant to be. If it was me i'd gladly made those formas and potatos switchable between weapons/warframes at any time.

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

I liked this idea before and I'll like it again. It will definitely give me a reason to invest my materials in non-prime gear. Currently I only spend potatoes and forma on prime or other high-end gear. 

[deepwaterrosebud]

I love that idea, We have all wasted so much time and resources getting weapons and frames up to spec just to have them collect dust once the prime version is released.  Would be very satisfying to ascend to prime status too, a nice little cutscene as you don your prime compnents too haha

[muzashi1963]

I have to agree with the OP. It makes a lot of sense NOT to lose all the "money" (plat) or time you put into the weapons and Frames.

[aoguro]

whatever weapon i like or see as useful is full with formas ... doesnt matter if primed or not ...

 

from every warframe which get primed i sell the non-primed one, i mean, what should i do with it ?

 

BUT: im a bit tired of this 1001 mod-expansions and 1001 whatever development which isnt a development

 

and im curious about the U 16 update-trailer, we dont have a singly thing which is shown in this trailer in our hands since U 16 happened

 

i also read somewhere we should give feedback in a way that DE can change things, i ask clear: how much do you pay me per month in real money that i dig into warframe which finally miss development since a month before christmas 2014 ?

how long do you wanna fool us players, DE ?

if answered clear and easy and how much money i get for playing for development instead of paying for development i will maybe do a 24 hour job for DE :-)))))))))))))))

 

 

but not under 5000 dollars per month for 6 hours a day from monday to wednesday, for 100.000 dollar per month you can get me 5 days a week 12 hours a day =)

 

DEAL ? then DE, you can be shure about constructive critics ,-)

Edited April 6, 2015 by HEA7HEN

[-Narauko-]

Problem, not having to rebuy Catalyst/Reactor/Formas direct hit on plat sales/usage. Of course from our point of view this is awesome idea but as a business idea its terrible.

[(PSN)OMEGA_MECH_3010]

This is a redo of an older thread I made. Probably because of my inability to articulate my point, or people's inability to read and understand properly (or a mix of both), many people were not seeing what I was suggesting. Some people did see what I was trying to communicate, and even articulated it better than me. So, I'm going to try this again, and hopefully you'll read more closely, and I'll have communicated it better.

So a while back, I made a thread discussing the matter of prime weapons making the original useless in front of the prime version, which is completely stand alone from the original. I had a poll for this, and by a small amount, "Prime should be an upgrade" won over "Prime should be a replacement".

The thread in case you care.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/430868-prime-should-feel-more-like-an-upgrade-rather-than-a-replacement-poll-included/

So, because it appeared to be that most people were not seeing exactly what I was suggesting, I'm going to go into greater depth of what I was suggesting, explaining it as if it was a part of the game.

In order to obtain a Prime weapon/warframe, you'll first need to obtain the original and level it to 30. Then, you must obtain the parts and blueprint of the prime version, and build that. Building the "prime version" will not give you a weapon, rather an upgrade you apply to the non-prime weapon, akin to that of forma and catalysts/reactors. When applied, it will then become "prime" and reset to rank 0, but keep any polarities and catalysts/reactors put into the weapon.

This way, the Mastery Points obtained through the primes/originals remains and can still be obtained, and the player doesn't have their teeth kicked in when they have to sell their 6-forma Vectis to make room for the Prime. Seriously. Only problem I see is with Prime access, but that would only need a couple small changes, though I could see it working fine. Just give people an option between the usable item and the upgrade, BOOM Prime Access still works.

What about people that already have the Prime version?

Nothing will change for them. The prime as a usable item will remain as it is, but blueprints and parts will need the original to be used.

This idea doesn't work because of lore.

Challenge accepted.

The "prime" parts you obtain ARE obtained because they cannot be replicated. The rest of the weapon can be built with materials found across the solar system. Hence why you need to search for the prime parts themselves, and why the newer replicas are weaker; because they are made without using the "prime" parts.

There, I hope I communicated this point better this time...

Lets try to have an actual discussion about this, instead of some people jumping to conclusions and other people trying to explain what I was actually trying to say. (Seriously; it was a mess)

Have a nice day.

This is a redo of an older thread I made. Probably because of my inability to articulate my point, or people's inability to read and understand properly (or a mix of both), many people were not seeing what I was suggesting. Some people did see what I was trying to communicate, and even articulated it better than me. So, I'm going to try this again, and hopefully you'll read more closely, and I'll have communicated it better.

So a while back, I made a thread discussing the matter of prime weapons making the original useless in front of the prime version, which is completely stand alone from the original. I had a poll for this, and by a small amount, "Prime should be an upgrade" won over "Prime should be a replacement".

The thread in case you care.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/430868-prime-should-feel-more-like-an-upgrade-rather-than-a-replacement-poll-included/

So, because it appeared to be that most people were not seeing exactly what I was suggesting, I'm going to go into greater depth of what I was suggesting, explaining it as if it was a part of the game.

In order to obtain a Prime weapon/warframe, you'll first need to obtain the original and level it to 30. Then, you must obtain the parts and blueprint of the prime version, and build that. Building the "prime version" will not give you a weapon, rather an upgrade you apply to the non-prime weapon, akin to that of forma and catalysts/reactors. When applied, it will then become "prime" and reset to rank 0, but keep any polarities and catalysts/reactors put into the weapon.

This way, the Mastery Points obtained through the primes/originals remains and can still be obtained, and the player doesn't have their teeth kicked in when they have to sell their 6-forma Vectis to make room for the Prime. Seriously. Only problem I see is with Prime access, but that would only need a couple small changes, though I could see it working fine. Just give people an option between the usable item and the upgrade, BOOM Prime Access still works.

What about people that already have the Prime version?

Nothing will change for them. The prime as a usable item will remain as it is, but blueprints and parts will need the original to be used.

This idea doesn't work because of lore.

Challenge accepted.

The "prime" parts you obtain ARE obtained because they cannot be replicated. The rest of the weapon can be built with materials found across the solar system. Hence why you need to search for the prime parts themselves, and why the newer replicas are weaker; because they are made without using the "prime" parts.

There, I hope I communicated this point better this time...

Lets try to have an actual discussion about this, instead of some people jumping to conclusions and other people trying to explain what I was actually trying to say. (Seriously; it was a mess)

Have a nice day.

Good idea.