Tyl Regor Is A Nice Guy

[Llyssa]

I really think the story for Tyl Regor needs to change.

 

As is, he's trying to help out his species in a way that would, from a scientific perspective, fix everything that's wrong with them. This would help not only them, but the entire solar system.

 

I can't bring myself to shoot a guy who's only trying to make life better for everyone. It feels awkward and wrong to battle him, and makes the whole Tenno concept look sinister--if we're out to assassinate one good guy, what other things are we doing that may be horrible crimes? Sending ships to crash into civilian populations? Maybe those mining machines are helpful?

 

The whole game gets rather queasy when you start considering the possibilities of "perhaps the Tenno are evil".

 

Easiest solution is to just make Tyl evil. It shouldn't be hard. Just change his story to be something less benevolent, or add in some sinister function to it. It could be he's a geneticist making a virus, or maybe he's solving the degredation problem by enslaving people and subjecting them to weird nazi-esque eugenics experiments against their will.

 

Something, anything, to make the mission not destroy the entire thematics of the game.

 

I suppose that might sound weird to some people, but if you stop being ethical for 1 mission, then what says that's the only place you stopped. Right now, it's unethical to kill him.

[ELREYULTIMO]

"Tenno, eliminate the target... would you, kindly?"

[Voqics]

Why is the Lotus sending us to kill him?  We're only following orders, maybes she's the evil one?  I like it as a story element

[Shion963]

IMHO the Grineer Empire are bent on conquering the entire Origin System and get their grubby mitts on ALL the Orokin techs. If he successfully fixes the Grineer's genetic degradation, they'd have a whole army of perfect gene clone soldiers. Tenno, Corpus and Infestation goes under Grineer boots, and Origin System goes bye-bye.

 

I like to believe that the Tenno are like Diablo-verse's Priests of Rathma. Gotta uphold dat Balance. :/

 

 

EDIT: Ooh, a nice idea for future Operation Extermination enemy: Grineer Gene-Perfect Soldier, initially spawning around Uranus - Tyl Regor's system showing that he has accomplished some part of his goal.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Shion963

[Lyphian]

Loyalty is the Essential Duty of the Soldier. You shoot what you are told to shoot without any thoughts or questions because it's for your leaders' and your Tenno brothers' good. Lotus is your goddess and you are the elite, the good guy. If you doubt their decision in any forms...why joined Tenno?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Lyphian

[Corpy]

Loyalty is the Essential Duty of the Soldier. You shoot what you are told to shoot without any thoughts or questions because it's for your leaders' and your Tenno brothers' good. Lotus is your goddess and you are the elite, the good guy. If you doubt their decision in any forms...why joined Tenno?

Because we couldn't choose to play the "baddies" ! Personally, I wouldn't mind playing as a "Roller" and irritating the Tennos

Edited May 22, 2013 by Corpy

[Kennpachii]

Ive often questioned whether or not the Tenno are just as evil in their own way as the other factions.  A good deal of the missions we go on involve assasination and capture for interrogation (torture, youve heard the guy scream when you nab him lol).  I dont particularly belive that the Tenno are some noble and just group, at least not while following the Lotus' orders.  I suppose you cant really fault the Tenno themselves, we've all got amnesia from cryosleep after all.  I think it would be an amazing story development to inject some moral ambiguity into the game and not just be the pristene "good guys" for a change.  Still, even if the Lotus is evil and just using us as her personal army i cant fault her, shes cute.

[Hatr]

Hmm.. in all the games you are the good guy.. i would LOVE to be part of the bad faction in this game

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I really think the story for Tyl Regor needs to change.

 

As is, he's trying to help out his species in a way that would, from a scientific perspective, fix everything that's wrong with them. This would help not only them, but the entire solar system.

 

I can't bring myself to shoot a guy who's only trying to make life better for everyone. It feels awkward and wrong to battle him, and makes the whole Tenno concept look sinister--if we're out to assassinate one good guy, what other things are we doing that may be horrible crimes? Sending ships to crash into civilian populations? Maybe those mining machines are helpful?

 

The whole game gets rather queasy when you start considering the possibilities of "perhaps the Tenno are evil".

 

Easiest solution is to just make Tyl evil. It shouldn't be hard. Just change his story to be something less benevolent, or add in some sinister function to it. It could be he's a geneticist making a virus, or maybe he's solving the degredation problem by enslaving people and subjecting them to weird nazi-esque eugenics experiments against their will.

 

Something, anything, to make the mission not destroy the entire thematics of the game.

 

I suppose that might sound weird to some people, but if you stop being ethical for 1 mission, then what says that's the only place you stopped. Right now, it's unethical to kill him.

On the other hand, think of it from a purely strategic perspective. The Grinner Empire is running around expanding. Presumably by force, given how they're clearly space fascists and how they choose someone like Vay Hek to represent them. They're at war with the Tenno, so from the Tenno perspective, killing Regor before he can cure the Grineer degeneration issue and thus make the Grineer even more difficult to fight makes sense.

It's ethically dubious, but if you assume that a Grineer empire who's solved their cloning problem would expand massively and enslave everyone (which seems fairly in character for them), it should assuage your conscience.

Basically, there's kind of a balance of power in the system right now. If the Grineer get too strong they take over everything. If the corpus get too strong, they do the same. Hence why we assassinate Regor or stop the fusion moa army, even though the Corpus or Grineer being stronger could probably wipe out the infestation completely.

Loyalty is the Essential Duty of the Soldier. You shoot what you are told to shoot without any thoughts or questions because it's for your leaders' and your Tenno brothers' good. Lotus is your goddess and you are the elite, the good guy. If you doubt their decision in any forms...why joined Tenno?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I joined to sword things. I am but a simple Tenno with simple desires.

That doesn't mean I'd do something like join the Lotus cult though! Half the time she can't make up her mind. What do you mean now I have to pick up data modules from those consoles I already passed? Couldn't you tell me earlier?! And you're not even paying me for extra work? FLARGHBH!

Edited May 22, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Llyssa]

As per genetic degredation, most of the effects of it seen in actual reality are mental disorders and deformities and sociopathy--in short, the only thing actually wrong with the grineer(based on all of the other assassination targets) is that the genetic degredation has totally effed up their brain chemistry. They're not evil per-se, they're just messed up in the head because of the cumulative genetic flaws.

 

So, this guy trying to ammend their gentic flaws would fix their generally effed up personalities. So he's heroic--if he succeeds, the grineer are no longer a problem to the galaxy. And we're stopping him. On purpose. So that means we're TRYING to perpetuate their problems, and by extension, the ongoing war.

 

As for wanting to be badguys, there are a number of games out there that already do that angle. Some even let you pick. I suppose, if people actually want an "evil side", then that's fine, and something to develop towards.

 

However, at present, I find it a massive turn-off to discover we're blatantly evil. As for the "why join tenno" question, the answer is: I wouldn't.

 

This is actually something that, if kept to final form, would make me quit the game immediately. As this is still declared to be nebulous and beta, rather than just quit outright, I can still point out that it sort of stabs the whole concept in the face rather badly.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Llyssa

[JefPlays]

Forget your morals, this is war people! It's not about what's "right or wrong," it's who's side you're on.

The Grineer are hell-bent on destroying us Tenno, so of course we're gonna hit them where it hurts. If we can prevent the Grineer from fixing themselves, this will only help the war effort. Not to mention that Tyl Regor's apparently the template they use to clone new soldiers.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

As per genetic degredation, most of the effects of it seen in actual reality are mental disorders and deformities and sociopathy--in short, the only thing actually wrong with the grineer(based on all of the other assassination targets) is that the genetic degredation has totally effed up their brain chemistry. They're not evil per-se, they're just messed up in the head because of the cumulative genetic flaws.

I'm not sure of this. The Grineer empire at one point saw a pressing need to spam clones so much that the majority of their society became clones. Given what we know of Grineer society (they're an expansionist empire, they've got a royal court, etc), it seems likely to me that the cloning issue stems from overuse of cloning to generate shock troops for expansion and warfare.

Basically, I think Grineer policy came before the cloning issue because otherwise why would they spam clones so much that clones outnumber non-clones, and continue doing it well after the downsides became apparent? You only need xbox huge armies if you're going out a-conquering.

 

So, this guy trying to ammend their gentic flaws would fix their generally effed up personalities. So he's heroic--if he succeeds, the grineer are no longer a problem to the galaxy. And we're stopping him. On purpose. So that means we're TRYING to perpetuate their problems, and by extension, the ongoing war.

I don't think that's true. If grineer aggression is purely a result of their cloning degeneration, the Tenno would rationally want to help Regor rather than kill him. After all, the grineer empire is the main force hunting the Tenno in Sol. If they're just doing it because they can't help it, the Tenno should by all rights want to "cure" them, so that they stop hunting the Tenno. The only way the Tenno gain from prolonging the chaos in the system is if we posit that any one side winning would be very bad news for us.

[Invino]

Because we couldn't choose to play the "baddies" ! Personally, I wouldn't mind playing as a "Roller" and irritating the Tennos

Just have to say .. Brilliant

[Mainabi]

honestly I like the idea that tenno aren't nice,

 

it's all a greyzone is it really the right thing we do? same as dark souls and I love it, conflicts emotional conflicts it's awesome

[Parzham]

Sometimes even a trained soldier will question his orders. Think of it as a story element. No doubt some Tenno have been ordered to do missions they can't stomach. Maybe that's why the Stalker went rogue in the first place? (If he is of Tenno origin, but I reserve my thoughts on that.)

 

I don't know about you, but I'm suspicious of Lotus. Most of the missions we go on, we are told what to do but, never what for?

 

My example: Redirecting Ship Navigations
Could we be redirecting a Grineer military ship carrying civilians into Infested territory? How about a Corpus Cruiseship ferrying travelers on the solar rails that get captured by Grineer because we redirected it?

 

Eventually we would be ordered to kill a guy we would consider harmless, innocent or even noble. (Although a scientist perfecting the art of cloning more soldiers I would hardly call harmless, noble or innocent.)

 

At anyrate, you have your orders. Think of it as you may.

[OricSharp]

I've always gotten the feeling the cloning could very well be what led to the aggression - but not as a result of screwing up the personality. I think it's the tech itself.

 

When things are mass-produced, see, they lose their value - compare a mass-produced analog watch from Wal-mart with a hand-made one, for example. The Grineer mass-produce people. The only reasons I can think of for doing so are: organ harvesting (which could more easily be done in other ways), to create a labor force, and to create a massive armed force, much like the Clone Army from Star Wars. However the cloning started (possibly as a way to fight the Infestation, or to defend Earth, as the Grineer are and/or were human, if a damaged variant in the present), it ended up being turned to aggression and conquest - or so I'd presume, as under more controlled circumstances than 'We're All Gonna Die!' followed by 'Zerg Rush The Solar System Because We Can,' the genetic issues would have been noticed and corrected before they could increase in severity to the point seen in the present. Point being: The Grineer as we see them would not have begun using cloning technology on the scale, or at the rate, they do in a time of peace.

 

As a result, the following assumption can be made: The Grineer are bad news, and would be worse news without their genetic issues leading them slowly spiraling into annihilation. Whether their defective genes are what cause their personalities as they are, those that came after them, were they allowed to repair themselves as Tyl Regor intends, would be raised to be 'ideal' to the Grineer - repair of genetic damage, in itself, would neither cause them to reject the Grineer way of life or accept it more than any other, but it's all in the hands of the genefreak megalomaniacs we know are perfectly capable of modifications to genes, and the repaired would be raised, taught, trained and conditioned by the damaged, besides. Seems likely to result in just as much, if not more, psychological damage than the genetic defects cause.

 

A race of idealized Grineer, with genes perfected to the Grineer mind, would probably be far, far worse than what we see; the Ruling Sisters would doubtless mandate modifications to make them even better - and more obedient - soldiers, leading to a force of physically perfected soldiers, augmented by modifications both cybernetic and genetic, fanatical in their devotion to their megalomaniacal masters crushing the rest of the solar system.

 

Tyl Regor, and any other gene repair scientist on the verge of The Breakthrough, needs to die, until such a time as the Grineer cease hostilities on their own, whether this is due to extinction or a change of heart. If it's the latter, who knows, maybe the Lotus will lend a hand in gene repair, and we could see a Grineer inducted into the ranks.

[Mainabi]

actually I think the orokin were kind of "gods" they've seen themself as something superior they've bossed and led other races, and other races worshipped them, after the orokin disappeared and only fragments are left, the tenno want that dominance, they want might and control, and grineer are simply a threat, we have to eliminate them to get our position back

[Drakontis]

I've also seen the moral ambiguity of the missions. Tyl Regor is a perfect example. Some of the others are also morally ambiguous because you don't know what that ship/information/capture target/rescue hostage is for. For all we know, we just rescued a serial killer that Lotus plans on putting into a defenseless populace. For all we know, this ship is heading on a collision course with a passenger ship or a cargo freighter full of medicine. We don't KNOW what these missions are for. They're all open for interpretation and how we play our roles in the game is also open for interpretation. Sure, most of us prefer to just gun everything down, but what if they add civilians into the game that are passive/unaggressive? Do we attack them to? Leave them alive? What if they're held at gunpoint? Do we shoot through them or do we try to kill the Grineer holding the person as a human shield? I think the moral ambiguity of the game can definitely be explored more as the game goes on. And I like it. It's not just "Kill A Target because he's a bad guy and he does bad things", it adds in "Kill B Target because he's going to fix the Grineer's genes which will result in Grineer being functionally immortal" or "Kill C Target because he's going to discover a breakthrough in drive technology that will make increase -Faction-'s expansion through the rest of the system." 

 

Yes, we have to play our part, but that doesn't mean that we won't be getting our hands dirty in the process. That's what war is unfortunately about. Sometimes your hands get dirty and there's not much you can do about it while you're in combat. It may be something to discuss with your squad in the dojo, but while on a mission, you need to complete that mission to the best of your abilities or risk failure, and that may be even worse than completing the mission. 

[Davoodoo]

Sure he can fix mutations of his race army. But then what would grineer do?? Launch an assault to conquer whole galaxy.

 

While they may be at the height of power, the Grineer army is in bodily decay and their features are increasingly primitive as a result of continuous cloning. As such, the Grineer are forced to use technology as a crutch for their genetic deterioration. An ideology of hate and discrimination towards the Tenno continues to drive the Grineer forward in the face of inevitable dissolution.

 

 

Imo grineers should be seen more as barbarian tribes than an actual society.

Only moral problem i had is shooting corpus as theyre just employees to another big corporation who wants to rule all

Edited May 23, 2013 by Davoodoo

[red_buyer]

Why is the Lotus sending us to kill him?  We're only following orders, maybes she's the evil one?  I like it as a story element

Think about it,

 

Tenno are a highly powered "Belived" alien species.

Corpus & Grineer seem more human based, so the "Lotus" whome also seems humanoid is sending tenno after all the other to makeway for her people.

[theammostore]

On the topic of Lotus, I'm not the only one who noticed that Lotus only pops up on a mission right? And not only that, her voice sounds very similar to the voice of corpus and grineer ships and outposts. Maybe Lotus has plans of her own, and is manipulating the Grineer and Corpus and Tenno to achieve her own goals.

 

As for Tyl Regor and them, war is never black and white unless you make it that way in your eyes. Us vs them. Tyl may in fact be trying to save his race, but so are the Tenno, whom the Grineer are capturing and torturing.

[Llyssa]

That's the thing, though--everything else that is "ambiguous" is couched in the framework of the stuff that isn't. Most of the people we're assassinating are either psychotic freaks doing horrible things which they boast about(grineer), part of the mindless borg collective (corpus), or overly talkative zombies(infested).

 

So, from the perspective of "everyone we're killing is a psychopath, robot, or zombie", we're the good guys, and it seems reasonable that we're helping people.

 

This wrecks that framework, and the game.

 

Now, I'm glad that there's some people this doesn't bother, and, therefore, will gladly continue to play the game with this as-is, however they choose to justify it, since I'm sure the dev team needs to eat. However, to people that it does bother, this is very much a "I am never playing again" issue.

 

I can't see any of the arguments offered as to why this is "okay" causing their believers to quit the game if this was altered, but I can see it causing people to quit the game if it isn't. Again, as I stated before, if the game wasn't still in the formative phases with mutability stated, that would've been my last mission ever. Period.

 

It's not hard to rewrite the character, and would have no actual affect on gameplay, but it would change the mindset.

 

To most people, it doesn't matter, they're following orders, or already see the ambiguity they desire in the whole "and where are we sending this ship anyway?" stuff.

 

However, on realizing Tyl's nice, I stopped shooting, closed the game as soon as the mission was over, and only rethought the possibility of ever playing again when I decided to open this thread. If it wasn't mutable, I would never have come back, and if I wasn't a healer in a multiplayer mission, I'd have closed out immediately.

[Nezzle]

Tyl himself may not be "so bad", but his actions are. He brings stability and strength to a species that seeks to disrupt stability. All that is required for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing.

[fishworshipper]

That's the thing, though--everything else that is "ambiguous" is couched in the framework of the stuff that isn't. Most of the people we're assassinating are either psychotic freaks doing horrible things which they boast about(grineer), part of the mindless borg collective (corpus), or overly talkative zombies(infested).

 

So, from the perspective of "everyone we're killing is a psychopath, robot, or zombie", we're the good guys, and it seems reasonable that we're helping people.

 

This wrecks that framework, and the game.

 

Now, I'm glad that there's some people this doesn't bother, and, therefore, will gladly continue to play the game with this as-is, however they choose to justify it, since I'm sure the dev team needs to eat. However, to people that it does bother, this is very much a "I am never playing again" issue.

 

I can't see any of the arguments offered as to why this is "okay" causing their believers to quit the game if this was altered, but I can see it causing people to quit the game if it isn't. Again, as I stated before, if the game wasn't still in the formative phases with mutability stated, that would've been my last mission ever. Period.

 

It's not hard to rewrite the character, and would have no actual affect on gameplay, but it would change the mindset.

 

To most people, it doesn't matter, they're following orders, or already see the ambiguity they desire in the whole "and where are we sending this ship anyway?" stuff.

 

However, on realizing Tyl's nice, I stopped shooting, closed the game as soon as the mission was over, and only rethought the possibility of ever playing again when I decided to open this thread. If it wasn't mutable, I would never have come back, and if I wasn't a healer in a multiplayer mission, I'd have closed out immediately.

You're shooting a guy that's trying to literally murder you, and your entire race. That's like feeling bad for scientists that are shooting you while using your brothers as food for their pet Grue.

I don't see why you would possibly quit for doing that.