Curve Difficulty According To The # Of People In Game

[jrkong]

The game's difficulty REALLY needs it's difficulty curved in accordance to the number of people in your game. It's become rather hard for people who have to solo or play with a low number of people in game to finish a mission in higher levels due to the new difficulty curve. As for those who say don't solo it's rather hard to get people to play missions that you haven't unlocked considering there are other missions that are much more rewarding for the time it takes to complete other missions. You should also consider giving drops to failed missions as it isn't hard to fail solo missions as they are and revives are rather precious and costly considering you only have 4 a day.

Before someone who's decided they've reached endgame comes and says that it isn't hard to solo things at all lets put everything into perspective shall we?

-With the new mastery grind there's a huge chance your gear will not be fully leveled or potato'd

-With rare mats fixed and mods as rare as always(well since U7 or U8) how pissed would you be if you lost a rare mat you just got from a mission because you were forced to solo?

-Time to complete each mission is almost doubled or tripled

-Imagine how hard things will be for a casual player the above points makes it much harder them and it is a huge turnoff to try and reach "endgame" vs gathering mats on a safer mission that a lot of people play like defense and bosses

Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[Sonicbullitt]

The game's difficulty REALLY needs it's difficulty curved in accordance to the number of people in your game. It's become rather hard for people who have to solo or play with a low number of people in game to finish a mission in higher levels due to the new difficulty curve. As for those who say don't solo it's rather hard to get people to play missions that you haven't unlocked considering there are other missions that are much more rewarding for the time it takes to complete other missions.

 

I totally agree with this. Since U9 playing solo is incredibly difficult, for example hyena is now a level 60 boss with 4 people that should not be too hard but solo i find myself wasting a lotta revives its stupidly hard. I am now forced to use armour piercing or ignoring weapons because of how terrible mobs scale in later levels.

[HomeyCDawg]

I sort of agree with this. I've had everything unlocked for quite some time, but I do remember having to solo most of it, since everyone else in the game was too busy boss running or doing mobile/endless defense missions to "waste their time" with the other 90% of the missions.

[Rynax]

Also! Leveling has become much harder! Would appreciate a nice increase to exp gained per mob if they are going to be this difficult. Maybe make the exp actually scale with level?

[fatpig84]

The potato alert was fun and games. 

Level 65 to level 70 mobs at the final few waves IIRC.

 

It was very fun. But I can see how this alienates new players since it starts on a level 40 planet.

I had a rather new clan mate who tried randoms and twice they failed in the second or 3rd round.

 

After he gotten a full clan squad, he just watch us walk over the mobs without much effort.

Yes we were all using leveling chars, but we were decked out with high end weapons (either 1 primary or 1 secondary maxed, Ogris or despairs usually).

 

He was in a level 30 frame and watching frames which are far more fragile than his (one banshee only had 280 shields and 150+ hp), rake in kills while joking on chat.

 

 

So the difficulty in the game happens if you do not have a good modded / potatoed weapon. But the scaling of planets makes it much harder for newbies to farm on those planets or do special alerts to get the leg up that we enjoyed in U8. 

 

That's wrong imo.

Edited July 16, 2013 by fatpig84

[jrkong]

The potato alert was fun and games. 

Level 65 to level 70 mobs at the final few waves IIRC.

 

It was very fun. But I can see how this alienates new players since it starts on a level 40 planet.

I had a rather new clan mate who tried randoms and twice they failed in the second or 3rd round.

 

After he gotten a full clan squad, he just watch us walk over the mobs without much effort.

Yes we were all using leveling chars, but we were decked out with high end weapons (either 1 primary or 1 secondary maxed, Ogris or despairs usually).

 

He was in a level 30 frame and watching frames which are far more fragile than his (one banshee only had 280 shields and 150+ hp), rake in kills while joking on chat.

 

 

So the difficulty in the game happens if you do not have a good modded / potatoed weapon. But the scaling of planets makes it much harder for newbies to farm on those planets or do special alerts to get the leg up that we enjoyed in U8. 

 

That's wrong imo.

Mod curve is a huge problem nowadays...I'm using lvl 9 redirection maxed mods or 7+ mods and I'm whining. Think about the newbs! DE one thing you want to keep in mind: More often then not those who advocate concerns are "hardcore" gamers those who don't voice their concerns probably either like things the way they are or don't constantly follow changes. It's not hard to make an algorithm for scaling in accordance to level or people in party! I find it really annoying that things that should scale (like Rhino Iron Skin or difficulty) don't.

[Saenol]

I don't like the idea of a dynamic difficulty based on number of players, not at all.

 

The game should be harder if you go it alone, and easier if you have a full group of competent people. It is a team based co-op game, and while you have the option of going it alone, I don't think anything needs to be toned down because of this.

 

Personally, I solo a lot, and would prefer that the content be the same as if I was in a group. I'm generally soloing for the added (often only) challenge, after all.

[jrkong]

I don't like the idea of a dynamic difficulty based on number of players, not at all.

 

The game should be harder if you go it alone, and easier if you have a full group of competent people. It is a team based co-op game, and while you have the option of going it alone, I don't think anything needs to be toned down because of this.

 

Personally, I solo a lot, and would prefer that the content be the same as if I was in a group. I'm generally soloing for the added (often only) challenge, after all.

The problem now is you have an almost barrier barring a LOT of players from new content. If you can provide an alternative fix I'm more then happy to hear it. Not to pick on your rank but have you tried soloing the harder missions where there are level 70+ enemies? It makes them a lot harder to complete when you can't possibly find people to help you out. Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[Slayblaze]

Bumping up the base difficulty for solo'ers is fine with me, but they overdid it a bit too much. I don't mind more of a challenge but some of the solo difficulty is pretty brutal even with maxed out and forma'd top tier weapons and frames. It doesn't need to go back to how easy everything was before U9, but could be toned down a tiny bit from current levels.

[Xinoxlx]

Also! Leveling has become much harder! Would appreciate a nice increase to exp gained per mob if they are going to be this difficult. Maybe make the exp actually scale with level?

The exp does actually scale with level, but the problem is it doesn't scale well. A level 10 heavy gunner gives roughly 25-30 less exp than a level 50 heavy gunner, but the level 50 heavy gunner has easily triple the health and double the damage.

 

There isn't a significant enough reward for killing higher level enemies. The only reason to do high level worlds is the increase spawning of heavy enemies who give the most exp. Meaning a place like Pluto isn't worth the increased damage Moas do compared to say Neptune or Europa which are 20ish less level.

[rapier9]

I don't like the idea of a dynamic difficulty based on number of players, not at all.

 

The game should be harder if you go it alone, and easier if you have a full group of competent people. It is a team based co-op game, and while you have the option of going it alone, I don't think anything needs to be toned down because of this.

 

Personally, I solo a lot, and would prefer that the content be the same as if I was in a group. I'm generally soloing for the added (often only) challenge, after all.

Agreed completely. Think about defense missions. Should a single person go as far as four people just because it was scaled to be the same difficulty? The missions are the missions, if you can't solo one then either wait until you ahve a more leveled frame/weapon/both, or find someone else to help you out. The community aspects of the game aren't perfect yet (this is a beta), so sometimes finding people is difficult, but it's not impossible.

[jrkong]

The exp does actually scale with level, but the problem is it doesn't scale well. A level 10 heavy gunner gives roughly 25-30 less exp than a level 50 heavy gunner, but the level 50 heavy gunner has easily triple the health and double the damage.

 

There isn't a significant enough reward for killing higher level enemies. The only reason to do high level worlds is the increase spawning of heavy enemies who give the most exp. Meaning a place like Pluto isn't worth the increased damage Moas do compared to say Neptune or Europa which are 20ish less level.

Personally I don't mind the damage (level 9 Redirection and all) the HP boost is my biggest concern. Why get exp somewhere where it takes 3-5 more shots to kill when it gives only a minor boost in rewards?

Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[jrkong]

Agreed completely. Think about defense missions. Should a single person go as far as four people just because it was scaled to be the same difficulty? The missions are the missions, if you can't solo one then either wait until you ahve a more leveled frame/weapon/both, or find someone else to help you out. The community aspects of the game aren't perfect yet (this is a beta), so sometimes finding people is difficult, but it's not impossible.

A single person will never go as far even if you can solo a defense mission. You get the same exp regardless and same rewards regardless. What changes is you save time when you go with more people as exp is SHARED if you're in the same room. Also, you level things up quicker with others as they can use other weapons you don't in defense so you master multiple weapons at once vs just one at a time. So no you do not get the same benefits and you are at a loss regardless. And before you bring up other modes and rushing keep in mind the people behind the rushers can also kill a few more enemies before proceeding (doesn't matter if it takes em one shot or however many) you still have a bigger chance of getting mods and materials. Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[Sixty5]

Playing with squadmates is just as bad, I lost the sister mod to primed chamber because of a wave 4 Xini fail, due to the new difficulty and me being the only one near the pod.

 

In short, just get used to the bump in difficulty, From an embarrassing wave 4 failure 4 days ago to soloing the Dagger axe skin alert on Pluto yesterday, I hardly got anymore skilled over that period, and I was using the exact same weapon loadout.

[rapier9]

A single person will never go as far even if you can solo a defense mission. You get the same exp regardless and same rewards regardless. What changes is you save time when you go with more people as exp is SHARED if you're in the same room. Also, you level things up quicker with others as they can use other weapons you don't in defense so you master multiple weapons at once vs just one at a time.

Defense was just an example, but not really following your point here. Sorry if I'm missing something. I'm just saying that difficulty should be the same wether it;s solo'd or with a full team because the full team should give something other than a faster finish. It should make things you couldnt do alone possible and make the co-op part of this co-op game very helpful. 

Also consider long time players bringing their friend along who is new at the game. Yes, said friend does help, but probably not enough to counteract the extra enemies because it is scaled up since there is an extra person. There shouldnt be cases where extra people can hurt a mission. 

 

Edit: This is a co-op game, so being with people shouldnt be a detriment.

Edited July 16, 2013 by rapier9

[jrkong]

Defense was just an example, but not really following your point here. Sorry if I'm missing something. I'm just saying that difficulty should be the same wether it;s solo'd or with a full team because the full team should give something other than a faster finish. It should make things you couldnt do alone possible and make the co-op part of this co-op game very helpful. 

Also consider long time players bringing their friend along who is new at the game. Yes, said friend does help, but probably not enough to counteract the extra enemies because it is scaled up since there is an extra person. There shouldnt be cases where extra people can hurt a mission.

You contradict yourself. Bringing along an extra person can make the difference between life and death. Things like revives and auras stack. Have you never had the misfortune of running into 2+ heavies when soloing? Unless you have a potato'd lvl 30 with around 1 or 2 Formas the situation can get rather sticky. I don't know how many times I've died because I ran into 3 Napams in a room without a warning. Ammo is another thing, ever run out of ammo soloing a mission? Unless you have a totally maxed loadout you're still in trouble, something a teammate would easily get you out of.

But that point aside it doesn't seem like you don't get the crux of my original post either, there are some missions that practically force you to solo ESPECIALLY if you want to reach nightmare missions. It's especially unfair to bar a person from said content just because they can't afford the time to grind out a level 30 weapon or the mods that give them the punch they need to actually do enough damage.

Even if they don't curve the difficulty they should at least take away the penalty for failing a mission due to deaths or reduce the cost of revive to something that does not required paid currency as it's REALLY annoying when you lose rare mats and mods.

Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[rapier9]

You contradict yourself. Bringing along an extra person can make the difference between life and death. Things like revives and auras stack.

But that point aside it doesn't seem like you don't get the crux of my original post either, there are some missions that practically force you to solo ESPECIALLY if you want to reach nightmare missions. It's especially unfair to bar a person from said content just because they can't afford the time to grind out a level 30 weapon or the mods that give them the punch they need to actually do enough damage.

Let me clarify, without scaling based on number of people, the more people the merrier. Every person helps. With scaling based on number of people, another person is only helpful if they can do enough to counteract the increased difficulty. Yes, auras stacking and revives are extremely help, but presumably scaling based on number of people would take into account these advantages.

and when is someone forced to solo? I've played a ton and never been forced to solo. There have been times when I ahve had to wait a bit, but usually a comment in the region/recruiting chat can get someone to a mission. Then there's also the whole recruit real life friends, or make in game friends who are more willing to help you out than random strangers.

And if you;re trying to go to solo high-level missions, you're going to have to put some time into the game. 

[jrkong]

Let me clarify, without scaling based on number of people, the more people the merrier. Every person helps. With scaling based on number of people, another person is only helpful if they can do enough to counteract the increased difficulty. Yes, auras stacking and revives are extremely help, but presumably scaling based on number of people would take into account these advantages.

and when is someone forced to solo? I've played a ton and never been forced to solo. There have been times when I ahve had to wait a bit, but usually a comment in the region/recruiting chat can get someone to a mission. Then there's also the whole recruit real life friends, or make in game friends who are more willing to help you out than random strangers.

And if you;re trying to go to solo high-level missions, you're going to have to put some time into the game.

Last I checked PING puts regional restrictions on people. So how are you going to do a mission with others if no one NEAR you is playing it? Sure you can play with someone halfway across the world who may be playing the mission but LAG kinda takes the fun out of it. The "bare with it" policy kinda takes the fun out of the game which is again contradicting since the main purpose of a game is to have fun. I donno it might be just me but sometimes it's hard to find a feasible party and again, might just be me but unreachable content barriers feels just unfair.

I mean it's fine if you keep things hard when you use the "Solo" option but those who opt for "Online" shouldn't have to suffer a penalty from lack of teammates because they press "Play Now" because no one is near them or no one wants to do that mission. So by all means bump the difficulty back up when people drop in but people in the unfortunate situation of being "forced" to solo shouldn't lose out or need to grind especially longer because there is a lack of player-base around them. Once again, I just don't feel having people "suffer through" lag to unlock content sounds like a good way to promote a game.

Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[rapier9]

Last I checked PING puts regional restrictions on people. So how are you going to do a mission with others if no one NEAR you is playing it? Sure you can play with someone halfway across the world who may be playing the mission but LAG kinda takes the fun out of it. The "bare with it" policy kinda takes the fun out of the game which is again contradicting since the main purpose of a game is to have fun. I donno it might be just me but sometimes it's hard to find a feasible party and again, might just be me but unreachable content barriers feels just unfair.

Still not seeing the unreachable content. Clarification please? Sorry, I just don't know what you're referring to. And I've never had problems with there not being people in the chats. Maybe I just live in an area with alot of people, I dont know. And some teams are better than others, just the way it is. I've had great teams where I'm the weak link, and less-than-great teams where I'm carrying the team, but there's been very few missions where the team couldnt complete the objective. 

[jrkong]

Still not seeing the unreachable content. Clarification please? Sorry, I just don't know what you're referring to. And I've never had problems with there not being people in the chats. Maybe I just live in an area with alot of people, I dont know. And some teams are better than others, just the way it is. I've had great teams where I'm the weak link, and less-than-great teams where I'm carrying the team, but there's been very few missions where the team couldnt complete the objective.

I mean it's fine if you keep things hard when you use the "Solo" option but those who opt for "Online" shouldn't have to suffer a penalty from lack of teammates because they press "Play Now" because no one is near them or no one wants to do that mission. So by all means bump the difficulty back up when people drop in but people in the unfortunate situation of being "forced" to solo shouldn't lose out or need to grind especially longer because there is a lack of player-base around them. Once again, I just don't feel having people "suffer through" lag to unlock content sounds like a good way to promote a game.

See this? Real life ain't always gonna be close and that's when technical limitations rears it's ugly head. Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[rapier9]

See this? Real life ain't always gonna be close and that's when technical limitations rears it's ugly head.

Didn't see the edit before I replied. 

And we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do you penalize the people playing in teams by upping their difficulty, or do you penalize the person who doesnt have a good player-base in their area? Ideally neither, but I dont really know how they could do that. My vote is for the solo player for two reasons. A) It is meant to be a co-op game. Yes there is a lot of kinks in the system right now, but it's meant to be played with people (imo). and B) Hopefully as the game grows, the player base in alot of areas will as well which will help with that problem. 

[jrkong]

Didn't see the edit before I replied. 

And we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do you penalize the people playing in teams by upping their difficulty, or do you penalize the person who doesnt have a good player-base in their area? Ideally neither, but I dont really know how they could do that. My vote is for the solo player for two reasons. A) It is meant to be a co-op game. Yes there is a lot of kinks in the system right now, but it's meant to be played with people (imo). and B) Hopefully as the game grows, the player base in alot of areas will as well which will help with that problem.

It isn't as "rock hard" as you are making it out to be. As a programmer it isn't really that hard to make a game distinguish between when you press "Play Now" on an Online port vs a Solo, Private or Invite Only port. It isn't hard for a programmer to write a leveling algorithm for those who press "Play Now" with completely open connections to adjust the levels accordingly so it changes as people drop in (or out). It isn't something impossible to do nor is it hard for that matter.

Of course I am speaking from personal experience as a programmer and as the Evolution Engine is proprietary there is no way I would know it's inner workings enough to tell if it really is as easy as I am making it sound in this particular situation but if it is hard then that is something the people at DE really neglected when they designed the Evolution Engine.

Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[rapier9]

It isn't as "rock hard" as you are making it out to be. As a programmer it isn't really that hard to make a game distinguish between when you press "Play Now" on an Online port vs a Solo, Private or Invite Only port. It isn't hard for a programmer to write a leveling algorithm for those who press "Play Now" with completely open connections to adjust the levels accordingly so it changes as people drop in (or out). It isn't something impossible to do nor is it hard for that matter.

Of course I am speaking from personal experience as a programmer and as the Evolution Engine is proprietary there is no way I would know it's inner workings enough to tell if it really is as easy as I am making it sound in this particular situation but if it is hard then that is something the people at DE really neglected when they designed the Evolution Engine.

I didn't mean any difficulties in the actual scaling itself. I dont know much about programming, but I assume it wouldnt be difficult at all. 

The stuck between a rock and a hard place phrase was just saying that there is no easy answer to this. There is no solution that would be good for everyone in the community. Scaling could have negative effects on team play, but not scaling has negative efects on solo play. 

[jrkong]

I didn't mean any difficulties in the actual scaling itself. I dont know much about programming, but I assume it wouldnt be difficult at all. 

The stuck between a rock and a hard place phrase was just saying that there is no easy answer to this. There is no solution that would be good for everyone in the community. Scaling could have negative effects on team play, but not scaling has negative efects on solo play.

But my point is: Is it fair for those who simply can't find a team (those who chose Online but simply can't find teammate(s)) lose out if they have no other choice but to Solo? Once again, by all means keep solo as it is now but make it balanced for those who just CANNOT find a full team. If you wanted to play with a smaller team you would have made a private or an invite only, if you wanted to play alone you would have pressed solo, if you wanted to play with a full team with people you don't know you'd play ONLINE. People who WANT the benefit of a full team should GET the full benefit even if they can't find one. If the past sentence isn't clear: If I wanted to find a team who was near me who wouldn't lag would it be fair for me to be pulverized in by level 70+ greneer when others elsewhere can complete the mission easier as they are located closer to others? This isn't about curving the difficulty for preference sake but for PLAYABILITY sake. I don't really think barring people out of content due to location helps grow the player base one bit. Edited July 16, 2013 by jrkong

[wfrawn]

easier if you have a full group of competent people...

I'm generally soloing for the added (often only) challenge, after all.

 

Of course it's easier with a full group of *competent* people.

But that doesn't mean it should be hard for new players, whether in group or solo.

I suppose there is demand for a hardcore solo mode. Should not give better drops though, after all you do it for the challenge, so the reward is in completing the mission.