Please Stop Picking On Ember Because Rhino Got Nerfed

[Rabcor]

Update: Now with numbers for rhino with steel fiber.

It's just not cool. Seriously kids... "My toy broke, so i'm gonna try to break my friends toy" come on! that's childish! admit it!

look at this explanation of how iron skin is not underpowered next to overheat even if said overheat has a maxed out focus.

Here's some armor maths.

If you're too lazy to read it all. At least look at the numbers.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Steel_Fiber'>10/110 = 0.09
150/250 = 0.6

Rhino Without steel fiber is bold and Ember without focus is bold
Rhino With Steel fiber is underlined and Ember with max focus is underlined.
The Steel Fiber numbers are based on steel fiber mod that costs 11 mod cap (since max focus costs 11) it's +80 Armor.

lets say you get 100 damage with ember and rhino at their base armor (10 and 150).

Ember resists 9.09 taking: 90.9 dmg
Rhino: resists 60 taking: 40 dmg
Rhino: resists 72.97 taking: 27.03 dmg

Now let's take for example with overheat at 70% and 91% (ember without max focus first, and then with max focus) and rhino's iron skin at 80% there are 2 ways this might be happening and i don't know which one DE uses.

Note: (since it seemed unclear) armor only applies to health.

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens after armor:
90.9 * 70% = 63.63 resist Ember taking 27.27/100 dmg
90.9 * 91% = 82.7 resist, Ember taking 8.2/100 dmg (Had an error here that said 7.3 when it was supposed to be 8.2 as result)
40 * 80% = 32 resist Rhino taking 8/100 dmg
27.03 * 80% = 21.624 resist, Rhino taking 5.4/100 dmg

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens before armor:
30 * 0.9% = 2.7 resist Ember taking 27.3/100 dmg
9 * 0,9% = 0.81 resist Ember taking 8.19/100 dmg
20 * 60% = 12 resist Rhino taking 8/100 dmg
20 * 72.97% = 14.6 resist Rhino taking 5.4/100 dmg

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As you can see, a Rhino with steel fiber at a comparable level to focus will resist a lot more damage than ember with a maxed out focus with their respective abiltiies enabled.

Ember has a lot less Shields than rhino, overheat has a shorter duration(2s) than iron skin and the final pointer. The real reason why iron skin outclasses Overheat as a defensive ability and always will. Even if it's bugged right now (shame on you DE) it is supposed to make you immune vs disables and toxic damage. Ember can get stunlocked easily with her overheat active and unless her AoE dmg kills everything she will die because of that; since without overheat she'll die very fast with that little damage reduction. Whereas rhino still has 150 armor which gives about 60% damage resistance without iron skin to HP loss (where ember only has 9%) and to top all that, without a maxed out focus Ember takes quite significant damage with overheat on.

Does this calm you a little bit? no more rage towards Ember? it's not like it's her fault that Rhino's iron skin got nerfed.
And besides.

That being said. i think Rhino's iron skin (apart from current bugs) is completely fine like it is. I play Rhino myself too and i love him just the way he is now (apart from current bugs) and i don't even use Steel Fiber, but i might start doing it now after i did the math on it.

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The one thing you can still argue about is that Armor doesn't apply to shields but i think the abilities do.
Rhino and Ember both have 200% Redirection and Vitality, Each have 500HP, Ember has 500 Shields and Rhino 750.
This means that with 100dmg shots their shields would drop this fast:

Ember/W Max Focus: 56 shots
Rhino/W Steel Fiber: 38 shots

18 shot difference.
Meaning rhino takes 97 dmg before Ember starts dropping. Then at this point by the time Rhino will die 75 shots later. Ember will die 61 shots later. Meaning that if rhino has Steel Fiber. Even if he starts hurting himself before Ember will Ember would still be the one to die first.

Total 100dmg Bullets till Death with ability active:
Ember: 117
Rhino: 131

But wait... there's more. Unmodded!

Ember:18 shots
Rhino: 38 shots


20 shot difference.
Ember takes 546 dmg before Rhino starts dropping without relying on mods(Steel Fiber/Focus). This would usually mean that by the time Rhino
would start losing health Ember would already be dead

Total 100dmg Bullets till Death:
Ember:37
Rhino:101

Which just shows you that without mods Rhino pwns Ember in the tanking area. With mods ember can take more hits before shields go down but will still die before Rhino would.
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In the end it's really just unfair that you compare Ember's overheat with a maxed out EXTREMELY RARE mod vs Rhino's ability without any mods to support it. Stop trying to encourage DE to nerf other Warframes because your favorite was nerfed. Nobody wins if you do that. Also worth noting (even if i took no part in it, and in fact disagree) people have been complaining for a while that Ember is weak and underpowered and useless.

Edited May 21, 2013 by rabcor

[Worira]

No one wants Ember nerfed. She's still honestly a little on the underpowered side. The issue is that despite that, she's still significantly better than Rhino. This is a problem.

[FallenKingErzon]

This guy....I like this guy.

[Kadishia]

Angry people are angry. They will find excuses from all corners of the Earth to prove something that the person did wrong...IS wrong. -.-

 

I like your constructive argument. 

[FallenKingErzon]

No one wants Ember nerfed. She's still honestly a little on the underpowered side. The issue is that despite that, she's still significantly better than Rhino. This is a problem.

 

 

PTBTH, Whaat? Significantly better? More like, they are on even grounds now. While I believe that Rhino was nerf was needed, they just went at it the wrong way. But attacking Ember, or any other Frame for that matter, is no way to go at it. Just cause your precious frame got the Nerf stick doesn't mean pass the nerf stick on, cause it'll be a vicious cycle, going round and round till all the frames suck balls. Rather, find what makes them Too good, or Too bad, and rather than changing it completely, change it bit by bit, nudging them up until we can all agree that it's enough.

[ValiantCorvus]

 

EDIT: Nevermind I misread.

Edited May 19, 2013 by ValiantCorvus

[GhostinDuhBox]

I feel like if they're going to nerf, or have plans to nerf numerous warframes, they should do them in batches. That way everyone's toy is broken and it's just a matter who's toy is broken less.

[KNIFE_CRIME]

THANK YOU.

 

Although at this very point in time it would appear that Rhino's Iron Skin IS actually bugged. Hence forth people do have the right to complain at this moment but i expect no moaning and complaining after they fix the damage taken.

 

For those who aren't aware of what the bug exactly is, it is when Iron Skin is used you cannot be stunned but receive no damage reduction, hence forth the complaining.

[Worira]

PTBTH, Whaat? Significantly better? More like, they are on even grounds now. While I believe that Rhino was nerf was needed, they just went at it the wrong way. But attacking Ember, or any other Frame for that matter, is no way to go at it. Just cause your precious frame got the Nerf stick doesn't mean pass the nerf stick on, cause it'll be a vicious cycle, going round and round till all the frames suck balls. Rather, find what makes them Too good, or Too bad, and rather than changing it completely, change it bit by bit, nudging them up until we can all agree that it's enough.

 

Yes because when I said "No one wants Ember nerfed", what I clearly meant was "OMG NERF EMBER NAO SHE 2GUD". Well done.

[VanillaRegal]

I feel like if they're going to nerf, or have plans to nerf numerous warframes, they should do them in batches. That way everyone's toy is broken and it's just a matter who's toy is broken less.

That'd be good. They do that in Guild Wars 2 so the hate is spread all over instead of on one class. It's always fun to see just what is ruined entirely when patch day comes out there.

[Gearb0x]

You can't post math you haven't verified and tested as an argument.

 

You don't even know and don't seem willing to test how the systems work.

 

Heck, you get the Rhino's armor value wrong.  It's 150, not 140.

 

Here's what I know:  

1) Overheat and the current iteration of Iron Skin both apply DR to shield damage.  

2) Armor does not apply to shield damage at all.

3) Overheat is affected by Focus, Iron Skin is not.

4) With a maxed out Redirection, the Rhino has 1110 shields, and the Ember has 740

 

 

Let's smack them with 100 base damage a pop and see how long their shields last.

 

Ember with no Focus: 30 damage per hit.  Takes 25 hits before armor comes into play

Rhino with current Iron Skin: 20 damage per hit.  Takes 56 hits before armor comes into play.

Ember with maxed Focus: 9 damage per hit.  Note that this is 1/2 what the Rhino takes.  83 hits.  

 

That's almost 50% more damage absorbed by shields than the Rhino.  That makes the Ember a better tank despite having lower shields.

 

You can't use math to argue how you think things work.  You need to use math to prove things.  I've just proven that Ember with maxed Focus is currently a better shield tank than the Rhino.

 

Rhino players aren't picking on Ember, they're using her as an example.  They're demonstrating that Iron Skin, which has been the signature skill for the Rhino for ages, is now much less useful.  Ember's Overheat is the only comparable skill, so they're comparing the two and finding Iron Skin lacking.

 

Please test your theories, check your data and run experiments before you attempt to use math and science to prove a point.  Vomiting a bunch of numbers onto the screen doesn't help anyone, and may mislead those you're trying to help.  If you care about science, run an experiment.

[JerryMouse13]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46710-rhino-vs-ember-durability-analysis/

 

I think I'll leave this here.

 

Credit to w00tm0ng3r for doing math, and stuff.

 

 

Edit:

For my part OP, I can honestly say I do not want Ember nerfed, what I want if for Rhino to preform at a comparable level to her. The tank frame should be able to tank like the modded caster without aid.

Edited May 19, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[PeacefulBob]

You can't post math you haven't verified and tested as an argument.

 

You don't even know and don't seem willing to test how the systems work.

 

Heck, you get the Rhino's armor value wrong.  It's 150, not 140.

 

Here's what I know:  

1) Overheat and the current iteration of Iron Skin both apply DR to shield damage.  

2) Armor does not apply to shield damage at all.

3) Overheat is affected by Focus, Iron Skin is not.

4) With a maxed out Redirection, the Rhino has 1110 shields, and the Ember has 740

 

 

Let's smack them with 100 base damage a pop and see how long their shields last.

 

Ember with no Focus: 30 damage per hit.  Takes 25 hits before armor comes into play

Rhino with current Iron Skin: 20 damage per hit.  Takes 56 hits before armor comes into play.

Ember with maxed Focus: 9 damage per hit.  Note that this is 1/2 what the Rhino takes.  83 hits.  

 

That's almost 50% more damage absorbed by shields than the Rhino.  That makes the Ember a better tank despite having lower shields.

 

You can't use math to argue how you think things work.  You need to use math to prove things.  I've just proven that Ember with maxed Focus is currently a better shield tank than the Rhino.

 

Rhino players aren't picking on Ember, they're using her as an example.  They're demonstrating that Iron Skin, which has been the signature skill for the Rhino for ages, is now much less useful.  Ember's Overheat is the only comparable skill, so they're comparing the two and finding Iron Skin lacking.

 

Please test your theories, check your data and run experiments before you attempt to use math and science to prove a point.  Vomiting a bunch of numbers onto the screen doesn't help anyone, and may mislead those you're trying to help.  If you care about science, run an experiment.

I love you.

[Bubsters]

It is true after all that with maxed focus Ember resists just a little bit more damage than rhino (one way or another) however; In her defense she needs a maxed focus to do this and i don't know for certain...

I stopped reading midway of the first sentence. If your going to make an arguement, don't agree with the opponents. And if you don't know for certain, don't post at all. After reading that part, i asked myself, "How do I know you didn't half-assed these numbers?".

 

And no. You claim that ember can be a better tank, therefore, something needs to change.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Bubsters

[TheGreyGuardian]

I'm not on Rhino's side or Ember's side, but you forget the part where Ember's armor cooks people as they're near her.

[Strudelhouse]

It's just not cool. Seriously kids... "My toy broke, so i'm gonna try to break my friends toy" come on! that's childish! admit it!

 

Since the 'nerf', I've seen a call for at least 1 nerf on every warframe by an irate ex-Rhino player.

 

If these forums are going to turn into the same cest pool as the Wow's General Discussion because God Mode was turned off, I'm just going to leave now and save myself the headache later.

[VER1]

Since the 'nerf', I've seen a call for at least 1 nerf on every warframe by an irate ex-Rhino player.

 

If these forums are going to turn into the same cest pool as the Wow's General Discussion because God Mode was turned off, I'm just going to leave now and save myself the headache later.

 

This is nothing new.

The typical, I was taken down so I am going to take you down with me attitude.

 

Also this behavior is not just from kids.

 

Grown up man-children who play Rhino also find this nerf a big deal in their lives.

 

Me?

 

I couldn't care less, to be exclusive to one warframe is limiting yourself.

I play Rhino against anything but infested.

[w00tm0ng3r]

See, the thing is, I DON'T think Ember needs a nerf. In fact I think she blows. I am thoroughly unimpressed with her at the moment. She's a close ranged DoT focused mage with entirely luck based CC and S#&$ty damage against all but one enemy type, and even against Infested she starts falling off as early as level 40. I even understand why she has so much damage resistance: it's completely impossible to make her kit function without it. She certainly needs to be tankier to function than say Ash (who has seriously tanky base stats for no apparent reason) or Saryn (who only needs to be in harms way for about 2 seconds, less if you molt on the way in, while drive-by miasma-ing from slide).

 

That being said, she's tankier than the tank. This is not a problem with Ember, it's a problem with Rhino. I don't want Ember nerfed, hell I want her buffed; I want Rhino unnerfed, maybe not to invincibility but at least up to 90% reduction.

[Judgebanks]

Look at how many players do not use Universe on Fire.

[Noogums]

Please don't nerf Ember.. ;___; I'm actually starting to use her again, World on Fire is incredible, now. It's not Personal Space Heater anymore.

[PhiZero]

Personally, I don't see the logic in the argument. Overheat and Iron Skin are two different abilities while the warframes they're given to are distinctly different. 

 

Overheat gives Ember a lot of damage reduction with a AoE burn, but she also only has 10 armor which is only +10% effective health and 100 base shields. From personal experience overheat makes Ember into a semi-beefy caster, but I've been killed multiple times from stun locks because overheat doesn't grant stun immunity.

 

Iron Skin now gives Rhino a lot of damage reduction with stun immunity, and he also receives 150 armor which is a +150% effective health boost and he starts with 150 base shields. Even though I didn't play Rhino for more than an hour before I took my reset, it still seems a lot better than overheat as it grants Rhino stun immunity, so he can get in close without being treated like a ping pong ball as Ember does.

 

The purpose of the two warframes are completely different to make things worse. Rhino is supposed to use Iron Skin to tank enemies for your teammates, and he has high base stats so he can survive without Iron Skin. Ember on the other hand uses Overheat to stay alive, as all of her abilities require close quarters to be even useful, and because of her "caster" base stats she can't stay in spitting distance like Rhino can when her Overheat wears off. Rhino is a tank warframe despite the hit to the knee by a nerf bat, and Ember is still a caster frame that uses overheat to compensate for her range.

 

If people are going to complain about the nerfed Iron Skin and attempt to get Overheat nerfed in a knee jerk reaction, why not complain about Trinity and Frost? They still have their invincibility abilities such as Link, Blessing, and Snow Globe. Am I saying that they should be nerfed? Maybe Link as it is a bit too powerful as it is, but not for Blessing and Snow Globe as they're used to benefit a team. Overheat can help a team by causing enemies to panic as they're set ablaze, but what did Rhino's Iron Skin bring to the table other than personal invincibility?

 

If everyone wants to continue the argument against Ember's Overheat, be my guest. Though just because another ability is similar to the now nerfed ability doesn't mean that it should be nerfed into the ground. It's like asking for Slash Dash to be nerfed just because Rhino Charge is similar to it. Or we can request a nerf on Crush and Bastille because they're similar to Rhino Stomp. Even demand a nerf on Sonic Boom because it's smoother than Radial Blast. It is ok to have similar abilities, Molt and Decoy are two similar abilities, and they're being balanced to make them more unique from each other, and Iron skin is already unique when compared to overheat, as it has stun immunity. There are things worth arguing about, such as Molt when it had a infinite duration which overshadowed Decoy, but Overheat does not overshadow Iron Skin as they both serve different purposes

[Gearb0x]

If people are going to complain about the nerfed Iron Skin and attempt to get Overheat nerfed in a knee jerk reaction, why not complain about Trinity and Frost? They still have their invincibility abilities such as Link, Blessing, and Snow Globe. Am I saying that they should be nerfed? Maybe Link as it is a bit too powerful as it is, but not for Blessing and Snow Globe as they're used to benefit a team. Overheat can help a team by causing enemies to panic as they're set ablaze, but what did Rhino's Iron Skin bring to the table other than personal invincibility?

 

If everyone wants to continue the argument against Ember's Overheat, be my guest. Though just because another ability is similar to the now nerfed ability doesn't mean that it should be nerfed into the ground. It's like asking for Slash Dash to be nerfed just because Rhino Charge is similar to it. Or we can request a nerf on Crush and Bastille because they're similar to Rhino Stomp. Even demand a nerf on Sonic Boom because it's smoother than Radial Blast. It is ok to have similar abilities, Molt and Decoy are two similar abilities, and they're being balanced to make them more unique from each other, and Iron skin is already unique when compared to overheat, as it has stun immunity. There are things worth arguing about, such as Molt when it had a infinite duration which overshadowed Decoy, but Overheat does not overshadow Iron Skin as they both serve different purposes

 

I'll again state that Rhino players are not trying to get Overheat nerfed.  They are comparing the two abilities and wondering why the "caster" frame has the better "tanking" skill.  They are comparing and contrasting the two abilities, which serve the same purpose of DR for survival, and finding their ability lacking.

 

Rhino players are complaining about Link.  I presume not as vehemently because they expect a mirrored nerf bat to hit her in the knees shortly.

 

Rhino's invincible Iron Skin was used extremely often to pick up his squishier teammates.  This silvered salvation saved thousands of Tenno revives and was praised nigh unanimously by those who were helped to their feet.

 

Rhino player's aren't picking on Ember.  They're using her as a comparative example.  Her role is different.  Her stats are squishier.  Why can she take more damage?  Why does Focus help her DR and not Rhino's?  Overheat's 91% DR demonstrates that the nerf went too far.  Rhino players are upset, they are angry that their toy is broken.  They would all rather their toy be fixed, but some are angry enough to try smashing other people's toys.

[w00tm0ng3r]

Guys you missed the point. We're not trying to get Ember nerfed. By all measures she needs buffs not nerfs. The point of my thread is to demonstrate how the recent nerfs have made Rhino less tanky than Ember, ergo he was overnerfed and should be buffed.

[-Thresher-]

Rhino players are complaining about Link.  I presume not as vehemently because they expect a mirrored nerf bat to hit her in the knees shortly.

Link may get reworked (possibly due to it not fitting the overall healer Frame, who knows).

 

But, this type of response is not good to hear. It's so sad to see some community members go on a nerf-this-and-that rampage when their favourites are nerfed.

 

It's better to address the concern caused by this update than to try tone down all the other Frames. Having vanilla Frames with similar abilities just takes away from the great variety and uniqueness that could be offered.

[GhostlightX]

Ember, probably the most woefully underpowered frame in the game is now better than Rhino. This is a shocking state of afairs. I only have 3 frames, Ember, Rhino and Excalibur. Two of them are now sh*t. How do you think I feel?

Trinity - a healing/support frame - is probably the best tank in the game now. HOW DUMB IS THAT???

Being able to revive without fear of being kocked over etc, was the ONLY reason to bring Rhino to really hard missions. That reason is now gone. He is pointless now. Rhino on hard defense is now a waste of a slot.

Edited May 19, 2013 by GhostlightX