Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut
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Posts posted by Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut
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7 hours ago, SteRage said:
First up, I would like to say Thank You to support for the quick response and how quickly the issue was resolved.
This happened last month on Sat 5th (was solved that Monday).
Have been playing since 01/01/2016 (yes created account on New Years Day), got 75% off on the first week (have had it 2 more times since), so I was never really short on plat from purchasing it (back then) and trading Prime Weapon/Frame sets.
Have never, ever, EVER, touched that fluster muck of the Riven market and never will.
Have taken breaks from the game here and there (sometimes up to 3 months+), came back and played for a about week then took another small break (2 weeks).
Had watched the DevStream 131 the night before and logged in on Saturday to find the Negative Platinum message.
Intresting to see that all they had to do was reverse cosmetic purchases for you, however i find it strange that you would end up in that situation, i supose that its possible they actually have a problem with detecting illegitimate plat and so it may be possible that some detections of it are incorrect? Ether way the fact tha they give the possibility to revert cosmetic purchases to offset the negative plat balence makes me beleive that i was correct in saying that it depends on the person who you have dealing with the ticket on the other side. Thanks for the info :D.
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49 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:
I get what you are saying and if they just banned the account then that would be the end of it. Demanding payment essentially in recompense from a non-guilty party is where I see the line being crossed. They basically say "We just took years worth of stuff you spent time collecting and BUYING from us through no fault of your own, and if you want it back you WILL pay us". If they had even a shred of evidence of wrong doing then maybe.
I actually did read it and it was interesting. However, the question and response by the lawyers was based on this being a civil case in other words a Player v DE suit. What I am talking about is a criminal matter or a State/Government v DE case. I would be highly interested in what @notlamprey lawyer friends' take would be on if this practice could or could not be considered extortion and how this might go as a criminal case if so. I do know the TOS has lots of clauses designed to at least try to protect them from civil suits, but there is no such thing as a TOS that can prevent a criminal case if a criminal act has been committed. If a TOS could do that then people could get away with Ponzi schemes using the right TOS. "Hey they agreed to me robbing them, it's buried right there in the TOS". LOL. As mentioned I am not a lawyer and wholly admit I could be completely wrong.
Sorry that i didnt speicifcy but i was simply pointing out @notlamprey 's post i thought you may find it intresting based on the relation to the topic, rather than using it to disprove your point.
On the topic of what them doing being illegal, i simply inferd that since all content on the account was technically ownd by DE and thus never ownd by us, meaning they were never obliged to give us access and the monotizing of gaining access to the account would be fully legal, however i believe a seperat contract (or TOS agreement) may be required at that point. Basically all the things on your account would be considerd an asset of DE rather than yourself since when you pay for things or work towards them they would be considerd services rather than objects or assets since they are an intangible thing which are technically fully based on the tangible object (that being the Warframe servers) which are a tangible object ownd by DE. Basically all content you have on your accounts would be considerd ownd by DE and so since you are paying or working towards those things, paying to regain access to those things would possibly fit under the same consept. I could be comepletely wrong ofc but it obviously depends on the laws, how they are interpreted and any external factors such as agreements between the player and DE. Thank you for your input, im not saying you are wrong or that i am right, im just trying to give my input towards the situation as i assume you are, so thank you :D.
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50 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:
Extortion means to obtain especially money or other property from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power. Banning an account and demanding money is a form of intimidation and I have little doubt a judge would agree. While the TOS probably has some clause in it that prevents players from suing them, a case of extortion would be a CRIMINAL case and no TOS clause can prevent a criminal suit.
Technically it wouldnt be considerd intimidation since they are giving you an option to pay money to regain access to a service (the game) and because the TOS permits termination and removal of your access to your account it would technically bypass the consept of intimidation through the loss off an account since thye technically own and have full power over the account. This being said i do agree that what DE is doing is quite dodgy and could possibly be illegal or atleast verging on being illegal, id recomend looking at NotLampRey's post on the first page of this topic since he had some intresting stuff to say in the hidden tabs :D.
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15 hours ago, YUNoJump said:
That just creates an easy system for goldfarmers though, as long as their buyers understand that the plat isn't tradeable their business still runs perfectly. Even after the transaction is cancelled, buyers can just buy whatever they want on the Market, which is just as important to DE as trading because it's one of the only ways to actually take plat out of circulation. There are even a few things on the Market that could be traded with other players for real plat, eg the new Requiem Relic Pack. It's not just about punishing goldfarmers (they always create throwaway accounts anyway), it's about maintaining a legitimate plat economy.
Blood kittens idea may not be perfect but you have to admit that there should be a better way to deal with the issue, and i appreciate the input from both of you 😄
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16 minutes ago, Atsia said:
That's really an unfortunate circumstance of the trade system. Plat can spread between people quick, and DE can't let it stay in the game when they find out about it. They also can't really be as kind as they usual are for these kind of things, cause it hurts them financially, and any business is unlikely to willingly take on revenue loss.
Agreed, i hope they can atleast acknowledge the problem and possibly make it easier for those effected to regain their accounts if nothing else although i do understand the trouble can and would have with the situation.
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34 minutes ago, notlamprey said:
I got really curious about this, so I asked four local practicing lawyers. For all who aren't interested in legal junk, I've spoilered that section below:
This is a hypothetical in U.S. contract law, and the four lawyers I asked were all very quick to point out that they have limited experience practicing contract law. Grain of salt, etc.
Mark R., Don B., Vivian J. and Vivian J. Jr. (father and son) all gave their thoughts and I've boiled it down as best I could:
This is a contract of adhesion and you shouldn't agree to it without first formally requesting that it be modified. The contract should include a formal process for this. If it doesn't, that would be a problem in court if someone were to challenge it. Practical difficulties of actually challenging it are another matter, but that's a frequent point of weakness with many game/service agreements.
If you have already agreed to the terms, then you can still request that the terms be altered but you are more likely to face resistance in the form of things like Mediation / Arbitration / Dispute Resolution clauses. At this point, your best card to play would be a lay person's ignorance. "I didn't realize the deal was like this, and I'd like some changes." You aren't likely to get anywhere using this strategy with a corporation, but it's still worth a shot as an alternative to litigation.
In the (unlikely and inadvisable) event that someone did initiate litigation against DE over something like this, it becomes a question of jurisdiction. Where can DE be hailed into court? Jurisdiction and the authoritative precedent therein would have a very big impact on the course of the case.
Most U.S. courts take a very negative interpretation of agreements like Warframe's ToS - the official fancy term of art is "highly disfavored." Since players are not a party to the negotiation of terms, the common practice for U.S. courts is to interpret any and all possible ambiguity or vagueness in favor of the party who did not prepare the contract. That's you.
Bottom Line & Takeaway:
Agreements like this one tend to be very unfair on purpose. You do have at least some opportunity, even if not stated in the agreement, to attempt to negotiate more favorable terms. Consensus among the legal practitioners I've spoken to is that you should always at least give it a shot. You never know what pleasant surprise you might get behind closed doors, for example a renegotiated ToS on condition that you not disclose its terms to any third party.
None of this is to be interpreted as free license to "stick it to the man," as some more litigious parties might suggest. Lawsuits are insanely expensive and destructive beyond what the average person imagines, and it really should never come to that over a video game account except in the most extreme outlier cases. Chances are that doesn't include you, or anyone you know.
Dude thank you for the insight
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26 minutes ago, Atsia said:
I mean, what else would you have DE do? They can't let the fake plat stay within circulation, and they don't want to remove the items you bought with the plat, for issues like you using the plat to buy any of the boosters, then using what you get from the boosters (such as the resource boosters) to build something. You want them to remove fully built and forma-ed frames or weapons, or rivens that you used Kuva farmed off the illegal plat to roll? How do you propose DE recoups the loss that's now gonna be in their books? They're still a business that needs to make money.
in theory they lose no tangible assets, however the recomendations i made at the end of the post are all ive thought of as solutons personally, in general i dont have a problem with them removing the plat, i simply have a problem with the removal of plat from people who unkowingly recieved the plat from somebody who illegitimatly sourced it causing these unkowing victims to have their account banned/suspended (i think the suspension is about 4 years? not sure) and then having them pay to return their accounts after doing nothing wrong in some cases.
Should unknowing players be punishd for another persons missdee?.
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53 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:
IMHO, don't buy rivens for ridiculous amounts like 1000+ plat and you're probably far less likely to encounter scum and scammers.
That is a good point, however i personally dont think it should be a problem in the first place causing people to resrict themselves from trading within the game.
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yeah sorry was wrong about the DE losing money thing XD
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I wouldnt go that far...
8 minutes ago, DerDzvero said:Why would anyone be asked to pay real life money if its account gets punished (unfair on top)?
Did anyone take that stupid platinum and brought it to real life somehow? Or did DE lose a cup of coffee?
Pretty much this story should mean one thing only - never ever spend money on that shady studio, they don't care of regular customers. F2P should be banned by law the same way as loot boxes, there's nothing for free and most of the time there's nothing good to play there too, apart from gambling.
I wouldnt go that far... i fully disagree with this S#&$ty system they have but in general warframe is much better than other F2P games when it comes to forcing micro transactions onto you, i can see that warframe probably charges money to stop people from repeat offenses or to regian money lost from illegitimate plat, but its simply the fact that the wrong people are getting punishd and nothing is being done about it (as far as i know)
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20 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:
The first link given is verry intresting thank you for linking it, however given the amount of people that have had this problem in the past year i would say that ether the contense of that post is out of date, or as you said the people i have talkd to may have bit appeald in the apropriate way, however having to appeal in the first place is something i think is a bit problematic due to the fact that simply implimenting a proper system to deal with the situation would both save the time of pllayers effected and the DE staff (atleast in my opinion.
Given the second link all i can really say is that there have been cases of this problem within the past year possibly making these comments invalid, or simply that there may be specific conditions for the people i have talkd to about the situation that i do not know of.
The case considering the $50 charge to regain an account that i mentiond was within the past year and was an issiue experianced by somebody living in vietnam (which may be a reason behind it if there are different conditions depending on region) and i was informd they this contact support with a ticket, although even if they did not i find that fact that DE would take $50 from a person for the purposes of regaining an account after being suspended without looking into the situation to some extent first.
The comment on loggd transactions is fully true however the concept that so many people would have this problem even tho this is a posibilitie makes me question why DE dousnt make this more accessable due to the fact that in some cases i have heard that people were simply ignored and offerd no help in returning their accounts via the normal means of questioning, accessing trade history etc. which i would suggest might just be a worker problem depending on the person who recieves your support ticket.
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29 minutes ago, taiiat said:
it's a case by case basis - as quite some investigation and proof sourcing has to be done to prove you have no association with the Account that performed the chargeback.
I completely agree and understand the trouble with it, but in my opinion i still dont think that warents the charging of up to $50 to regain access to your accounts, this is why i recomended possibly temporary trade bans and possbile tracking of those accounts (although i can understand that may also be an extionsion of more work for DE) so i welcome any other suggestions for solutions :D.
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During my 5 years of playing the game ive never witnessd this problem however i have talkd to many people who have
For those of you who dont know, due to hackers, purchasing plat from a 3rd party for any other resource (cryptocurrency, IRl money etc) basically any means that isnt through digital extremes or one of their acknowledged partners (steam etc) causes that plat to be markd as ether "illegal" or "illegitimate" plat (after DE has acknowledged and found out that the plat was illegitimately sourced).
Now, the fact that the people who illegitimately source the plat are punishd, banned etc is fine with me, however if those people who sourced plat end up trading with others who have no knowledge of the history of the plat, those who gaind that illegitimate plat through legitimate trades well have the illegitimately plat removed from their accounts after the sourcing of the illegitimate plat has been found by DE. Allthough this in itself is quite worrying seeing as these players who have done nothing wrong have lost some of their in game assets, i understand why this is done by DE, more importantly tho the problem that occours is that the removal of the illegitimate plat from the accounts of those who unknowingly attaind it can cause those who recieved it to be forced into negative plat depending on the account balance they have and the amount removed based on the illegitimate plat attaind unknowingly indipendant of that plat allready being spent. Once these unknowing victims are forced into negative plat their accounts will be suspended and from what i have heard they are required to pay up to $50 to regain access to their account even tho they did nothing wrong.
I will note that i do not know if ALL players that have this problem are forced to pay to regain their accounts or if the cost is the same for every situation, however I do know that this a suprisingly commen issue as multiple people i have known, clan members friends etc have had this happen to them and that there have been instances of this being reported on the forums previously with little to no response and no fix to the problem which is evident by the fact that this is still an issue.
I do acknowledge that DE have all rights to suspend, delete and remove plat from accounts, however i question the legality and reasoning behind the cost of real money to re access their accounts even tho they have no connection to the sourcing of the plat to begin with, although i am not a lawyer and havent read all of the TOS for a while so i do not know.
In conclusion i hope that DE fixes this problem possibly by not letting the plat of people other than the origional sourcer of the plat or close connections to them dip below 0, or simply look into the acoC***s of the accounts other than the sources of the plat in order to prove their innocence. My most reasonably proposal however would be temporarily removing access to trading for a duration after the removel of the plat, and have their accounts be markd in order to keep track of any suspicious activity. If nothing else i atleast hope a DE member responds to show that they have acknowledged and are working on a fix to the problem.
Sorry for my spelling and grammer, thank you for reading and please comment your experiances, opinions and suggestions down below 😄
Edit: ive noticed more people saying they had to pay to regain access to their account, for those of you who have had to or do have to do so, id recomend keeping evidense of your transaction just in case.
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You looking for a god or an unrolled?
illegitimate plat problems still at hand.
in General
Posted
I think we all understand this, however it still dousnt cause me to believe innocents should be punishd in the way they are, i simply believe they can go about it in a better way and consider the consept of being innocent untill proven guilty especially when considering that they may be loyal players.