[What is the point of Random Loadouts? *old title*]

8 minutes ago, Eedu777 said:

i kid you not id actually do Kuva Floods and Deimos tier 5 just to reroll it
And Kuva Survival

i wrote that as a joke , but the more i say it in my head the more sense it makes.

[What is the point of Random Loadouts? *old title*]

hows about kuva to re roll your loadout choices :D

[Hypothetical armor issues if TTK remains the same.]

5 minutes ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

So correct me if im wrong.

But dont this mean a weapon modded for corrosive, along with 2 archon shards to achive full strip on shield units that does have armor underneath on a heavy multi weapon like the phantasma. Along with nourish to weaken said hp value.

Solve 3/4 of these and all you need is a source of toxin to bypass shields? <.<

 

While what you say isnt wrong thats a very very niche loadout and will be counter to improving diversity in the game.

As to the OP, what you say is true in the context lmited to just armor and HP , but lets not forget that we dont have confirmation of how shields will behave and how armor will actually scale ,

whether toxin will actually bypass shields or not and how armor stripping will behave ,currently DR to armor is not linear , it has diminishing returns , Pablo did say they will be making the DR scaling more linear.

And i have a gut feeling that DE hasnt really said everything they actually plan to do with this and there will be a few "minor" things that will be introduced that may look subtle but have a significant impact..

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Literally just this, I'm not sure how you managed to think I'm complaining about the future changes when my posts was always about the current state. 

For now, we still do. 

With both those faction specific armor and Acolytes, due to their EHP dwarfing the rest of the faction. 

Again I've said it before and I'll say it again. 

"Why am I building for Anti-Armor in the Shield and Health faction?"

 

Ah , i guess issue was on my end in understanding. Thanks for clarifying it's about the existing setup.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

52 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

Oh god, I will just try to rephrase my claim once again - if the "most efficient" is detached from what the user would like to do or has to do, it is just a reference point without any substance. Usually, a point pushed by a streamer.

Ok , I don't think i said anything to the contrary , individual players are ofcourse free to have a playstyle that they enjoy that is not meta.

52 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

I was referencing the recent stream about which changes are on the horizon and why they intend to implement them. If you did not base your topic on that, my bad.

The only stream worth referencing is the devstream 179 (and that also has a disclaimer of it being subject to change) Anything else by random youtubers is just opinions , I don't waste my time with those for purpose of having discussions.

53 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

 

There was no aggression, really - till you came with "I am saying whatever the current META is will rollover due to these changes." Then I became rather irritated because you settled to something like... DE intends to apply some changes, but did you realize it can bring some changes? Till then, I tried to point out which changes are coming and if that has the potential to affect something or how. But your backing to "changes can bring changes and I did not say anything"... yep, that deserved some adequate response.

The meta will rollover , I stand by that. But we will see how much.

Not sure I understand the changes can bring change , part. I may have to check for some grammar.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

 

I'm surprised you're saying this when my first post:

Was specifically made to call out the current version of the Armor EHP dwarfing everything and people saying that removing this would remove diversity. 

My point was always about how currently armor was so strong that it overshadowed every thing else and trying to say that it's okay, just homogenized your builds to always have anti armor, reduces gaming diversity. 

I never brought up that they were going to change it. It's always been about the current state and how people say that right now it's fine and encourages diversity instead of the opposite. 

Do YOU get it? 

Can't say I get it cause you are not really maintaining a coherent line of reasoning. Or I am misunderstanding or not able to follow it well enough. I am not even sure if you are in support of the future  changes , complaining about existing Armor dominance or angry at DE for not doing things earlier.

 

One one side you are claiming we still need to build things for Armor mitigation for all factions in a mocking example , which I think is partially untrue once the changes happen and also complaining about the homoginised loadouts.

My point of view has , for this discussion atleast , always been from their proposed changes and how they impact the existing setups.

I am trying to understand your pov.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

 

Again my point still stands. 

Why am I building for Armor for the Shield and Health faction? Why are the builds and loadouts being homogenized and pushed to always have Anti-Armor? Doesn't that cheapen the enemy variety of the game, especially with how absurd Armor is at the moment.

I remember someone going

"Why do people only use Viral Corrosive Heat and Slash?"

And the response should always be

"Why does every enemy faction in the game have Armor in them that exponentially jacks up their EHP value?"

Did you not read the whole thing ? Armor is getting a cap , and we don't really know if the enemies will still have Armor for corpus and infested.

Your arguments are in a vaccum which may not be relevant when the actual changes take place.

[I wonder if we will ever get...]

I don't like people getting handsy.

[So Jades weapons....]

Look awfully familiar , almost as familiar as cernos and mutalist cernos , or Proboscis cernos which require the base cernos as a building component, 

So what if jades weapons needed pre built stalker weapon as components ? 

And it can't be a co incidence that they are reworking his drop chances after so many years.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

By writing "meta" as "META". That's what I mean. People write it as though it's an acronym that stands for the previously mentioned phrase when it's actually a shorthand for "metagame".

Ah , you meant uppercase capitalise , and not take advantage and exploit for monetary gains capitalise.

Whether i scream meta , META or metagame the general playerbase understands what it means.

I am with you that being accurate in your description is always better than being vague. But at this time that's a pretty established term no matter if you use uppercase or not.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

27 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

You added a completely ambiguous definition that serves no purpose. So I did argue against using a completely pointless definition that serves absolutely no purpose.

But the stream you based your topic on was about people relying on a full armor strip and dismissing a partial one.

A topic about change is pointless if you insist on not mentioning the original state while you have no idea about the result. The mix will change if you change an ingredient, who would have guessed it?

Pretty sure meta is not ambiguous , it's a pretty common game terminology. It may of course have slight variations between different games.

Also not sure what you mean by dismissing a partial strip , the numbers are right there for you to verify.

I am also not sure why I am getting this agression from you , and what do you mean by not mentioning the original state ? We are as of now playing in the original state before the changes. Anyone can do the testing.

And yes I do not know what the full scope of the change may entail , as of now we can speculate based on the data shared in the dev workshop , which is still subject to change. We can still discuss and make theories though.

19 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I really wish people would stop capitalising "meta". The whole "Most Efficient Tactic Available" thing is a backronym, it has nothing to do with the actual origin/meaning of the term.

But it serves it's purpose well enough. And how exactly do you capitalise a strategy ?

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"Hey the Corpus is the Shield Faction Right, we should build mostly to deal with Shields"

"Actually you need to focus one for Armor."

"But they're Shield focused, wouldn't making it so that we need to build for Armor for them as well negate the enemy diversity and homogenise the weapon builds?"

"Doesn't matter, have a build for Armor."

"Ok, what about the Infested. They're Melee focus and take extra damage from Gas, alongside clumping together which helps with Gas. "

"You also have to build for Armor for them."

"But wouldn't that further reduce build diversity by forcing all factions needing one specific play style/build being present at all times, while also causing issues with the challeng when the EHP of those faction doesn't match with how much EHP armor does?"

"What's wrong with you, you have three weapons, just build for Armor."

"Fine, then I guess for Grineer we also need to build for Shield and Enemy Density to? "

"No for Grineer just build for Armor."

I do get what you are saying , but also feel you are over exaggerating multiple things and not having this argument logically and claiming you need to build all your weapons the same way.

You have three weapons , pick one to deal with whatever is the most prevalent enemy you expect to encounter and mod accordingly.

Pick the other to deal with whatever enemies that are out of the ordinary and mod accordingly.

Pick the last for a kind of middle approach that can kinda maange both if a little less effectively.

That's just weapons , add frames and operator focus abilities and you can build in a different way altogether.

We will ofcourse have to see how things actually work out and ttk for reworked armored units and shielded units (using respective elements).

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

6 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

Well, sure, "most effective tactic available" is the definition, but what that means is ambivalent. For example, the mentioned combination of Heat + Corrosive + thauforged emerald shard gives mathematically better numbers than a full armor strip. But is it better or most effective? Depends on the user and use case. Labeling armor strip META is stupid by definition, as you did not list all the necessary conditions. Like sacrificing one ability for that - or pushing Strength to unreasonable levels.

In real life, META is what is being pushed, not about being the most efficient or reasonable.

I wasn't arguing , I was clarifying.

I also didn't say Armor strip is META , you may want to recheck what I wrote.

I am saying whatever the current META is will rollover due to these changes.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

10 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

The combination of Heat + Corrosive + thauforged emerald shard is surprisingly good in the current system. Full armor strip was pushed for being a brute-force, easy-to-understand mechanics, but it is not the only way already. The problem is that it is hard to do a meaningful partial armor strip that which does not risk a full armor strip. Making the damage resistance curve linear will help with that, but will significantly devaluate the emerald shards.

META means what is pushed by streamers, but it really does not mean being easy to use or justifiable. A change in META kinda means absolutely nothing if you like your playstyle.

And empowering shields can only further boost my inclination to use toxin damage. I do not get how making something more of an obstacle is supposed to motivate me to struggle with it - if there is an easy way around it.

META is the "most effective tactic available" , effective does not mean highest damage , but what can get the job done with minimum effort. Including effort of changing loadouts to match the opposition.

You absolutely do not need to follow the meta , but loadouts will undoubtedly need to be relooked after these changes and updated.

We will see if toxin sees any changes.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

I find it funny that apprently we have now 'encourages' diversity when

1. Corpus Heavy Units have Armor, which require to forgo Magnetic, you know the Anti Corpus element, for either Radiation due to the damage bonus or Corrosive to reduce enemy armour.

2. Deimos open World makes enemies with Armour their looks, making it so that wanting to actually use Gas to deal with the enemy faction that groups up and attacks in melee worthless, due to needing to actually deal with Armour, meaning you have to build for Corrosive, because Viral doesn't work simply because lol DE. 

3. Acolytes exist in both Infested and Corpus Steel Path with their Ferrite Armour, which means having to build for Corrosive due to their Armor getting in the way of like the intended resistance and weakness of this factions and instead you get slapped with what is essentially a Grineer Field Boss. 

You either have to build for Corrosive, Bypass with Slash, or Armor Strip. 

And I shouldn't have to tell you that I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO ARMOR STRIP FOR THE SHIELD AND HEALTH FACTION! 

Firstly , Armor is getting reworked along with status , let's not look at them in vaccum.

Secondly , that has always been the case and players have access to 3 weapons , 1 warframe and one focus school to mitigate such issues.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

19 minutes ago, Greysmog said:

The only issue is DE has already confirmed they're not going to touch the glaring issue that is Viral on the Devstream. I'm going to assume they won't be touching kind of busted stuff either like Heat Inherit or Toxin just ignoring Shields in general, but we'll have to see. 

Now the changes aren't finalized to be fair, but I don't really see this changing much if Armor and Health still work the same. I'm still going to be picking Viral in 99% of cases, because it's just easier to stick with that then constantly flip-flop around. Considering Toxin and Slash aren't being addressed either, and can still just totally ignore an enemy's defense with Viral that just adds 550% extra Health damage, it's mostly going to be gimmicks or proccing Arcanes then actually using the elements for their intended purpose.

I'm hoping Pablo is actually considering tweaking the meta stuff as well, because I do actually want more reasons to run Blast or Gas over Slash and Viral. If DE does something like making Armor and Shields a literal health class, so you have to get rid of it to benefit from Viral, that would already go a long way. We have plenty of strip options after all. Maybe buff the upsides and the downsides, so if you aren't using the correct element your damage tanks, but using the proper one melts stuff, making raw DPS like Radiation or Blast better as well. 

I do think there are plans to tweak other statuses ,

Did they really say they will NOT do changes to any other things i was sleepy when i saw the devstream so may have missed it ? besides there are still ways to change how things work functionally without changing the mechanics of thing , the ammo rework showed that for many weapons. Health increase and damage resistance to bleed for certain factions could dramatically affect how slash would behave without changing slash itself.

I feel they just don't want to say it now and want to get the player reaction to the buffs before talking about the nerfs (either direct or indirect).

 

[Cold...getting buffed?]

I do use cold on a few loadouts ,

It's not bad and works well with corrosive ,and radiation.

It's slowdown paired with other CC can really be useful as it's one of the few things that slows eximus and bosses.

And the extra crit was already great on weapons that are just slightly short of reaching full 100%.

It's gonna get better and pair that with the armor changes might be seen on more loadouts.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

42 minutes ago, trst said:

Sounds considerably worse tbh. Unless DE buffs enemy base health a LOT all any of this will do is make it easier to just brute force enemies. I'd much rather chose one of the dozens of anti-armor/armor stripping methods we have for a build than just slap damage on (something every build already does) and call it a day.

And as for status reworks none of it matters if DE doesn't address the meta ones AND all the future meta picks. Otherwise we'll remain in the cycle we've always been in where only a fraction of our 13 different damage types ever get considered. If DE wants them all to have reasons to be picked then every one of them has to be nerfed to the point that the advantages each offers actually matters. Otherwise the strongest will be picked vs the most "difficult" faction while still being able to brute force everything else.

I like to look at it as the next step for more things to come.

I think the first step happened with the ammo rework.

[Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?]

This is based on the changes mentioned in the devstream (refer the dev workshop here 

 

Well it's no secret that most loadouts used by players for higher levels content depended on a means to remove or bypass armor completely.

With the proposed changes this playstyle will still work (probably) , but there will be more reasonable alternatives to the dominant options we picked and may need other means to adapt our playstyle.

Which means ,

ITS TIME FOR A META ROLLOVER

Not just in the type of elements we put on our weapons but also the type of frames and weapons we use ,

If shields are going to recharge much faster , then not only will magnetic be preferred but weapons that can keep the recharge delay going will be more effective (things with a decent fire rate would be my bet) instead of single shot slow fire rate weapons.

Impact may not be a dump stat for rivens anymore (who am I kidding , that's probably still not gonna do much , but we will see)

There are frame that change enemy resistances I wonder how they will interact (and how long before DE realises they broke them somehow ) and maybe frames can get away with lesser strength for Armor strip and get some other utility.

Will it also entail changes to faction mods in some way either how they affect resistances or how they double dip on some DoTs?

Cold freezing enemies solid , and doing extra crit damage ? Talk about union of CC and support that's gonna be worth that D forma.

A 90% DR cap with armor means you can stack up gas and electric if you can group enemies for more devastating effects (which you could already do but at lower levels)

I am curious and have suspicions there's more to this change than is being shown ofcourse , like what's up with blast blasting ? Like ... What ? That's a discussion by itself.

But I am overall looking forward to these changes eagerly. It's going to be a very significant change that will affect a lot of things. Would lovbe to discuss views and opinions on how this will (or not) impact you.

[unpopular opinion? I like current way armor stripping works?]

I am actually very happy with the proposed changes ,

Yes it will make many of the previous focused loadouts for Armor strip less effective ? Maybe less necessary would be the better term , but less necessary only because other options will be more effective than before.

It's more about levelling the playing field where previously you had a very narrow setup , now there is scope for variety without feeling like you are playing wrong.

 

[It sure would be nice if there were other stream times you could watch to obtain Umbra Forma]

There are indeed limited opportunities for umbra forma acquisition. 

But honestly there are more than enough means to increase the strength of a frame that the strength set bonus seems not that essential to reach break points.

Besides there are maybe a handful of frames that actually take advantage of the whole set.

Most frames would be good with just two umbra mods (and you don't need to max them , many players forget that they don't need to increase the rank to 16 for all of them, low rank mods also add the bonus )

As to the streams , it's almost midnight when they stream where I am , i am either too tired or already asleep , I tend to just leave the computer or my phone on on their channel.

[Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework]

11 minutes ago, Petroklos said:

I don't think so, nor that it would need any, and here's why:

Slash's main benefit is that it bypasses Enemy Armor and deals Damage directly to Health, but is otherwise the weakest of the DoTs.

With Enemy Armor getting reigned in, Slash's main boon becomes less impactful.

And since Slash deals Damage directly to Health, increasing Grineers' Health will increase the TTK from Slash DoTs.

That's two indirect nerfs to it.

Now, get ready for some maths:

• Slash deals 35% of the Damage that dealt it.
  • It bypasses Enemy Armor, so it's always 35%.
• Electric deals 50% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Electric scales with Electric Mods, so up to 265% with Primed Electric Mods.
  • That's 132.5% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Electric DoTs can Headshot, with a moddable Headshot Modifier of 1x.
  • So with Deadhead, they'll be dealing 1.3x Damage on Headshots.
  • That's 172.25% of the Damage that dealt it.
• Assuming the new Enemy Armor DR Cap will be 90%, Electric DoTs will be dealing up to ~17.2% of the Damage that dealt it.
  • That's half the Damage of a Slash Proc, with space to grow beyond it when paired with any Armor Strip (eg Corrosive from your Companion or Primer)

Speaking of Electric, another reason why it currently suffers against Enemy Armor is that Alloy Armor resists it by 50%. This seems to be gone, unless Kuva Grineer are resistant to it (plz no).

And lets not even get into Corrosive and Heat. A Heat Procs will be dealing that ~17.2% Damage of the hit that dealt them, but that same Weapon will be doing an Armor Strip of 90% under the new Enemy Armor which is capped and rewards partial Armor Strips?? Corrosive Heat meta??? (with a Viral Primer, duh)

Words cannot express how excited I am for these changes.

That's partially what I meant ,

I also expect some changes to how some status dots double dip into some buffs and faction mods. 

Bleed is also currently neutral as a damage type , I am curious how it will affect shields (if at all).

I too am excited for these changes , it will be a very significant step towards an even playing field and one step closer to balance.

But I do feel there will be more to this and it's only step one of many other changes to come.

[Waging bets for announcement of the Kuva Stug on next Devstream]

All bets are off ,

Winners are the sobek and glaxion ,

winners please collect your prizes.

 

Also there was mention of an augment for them , very curios.

[Is Blast destined to be the worst element?]

Ooh the timing of this topic is very suitable,

I wonder what actual changes will come to blast.

[Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework]

I am glad there is plans to consolidate things and i love it so far.

I was hoping for this sort of holistic rework of enemy scaling and status effects for a long time and it makes me very hopeful for whats to come.

 

i can smell there is more to this though , slash is going to get something changed too, and i am all for it.

But i also bet its not going to stop there, there is going to be many little things that will be impacting a lot of the load outs we are used to..