geninrising
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Posts posted by geninrising
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You think Rhino gets no play time?
This dude has to be one of the top frames used by the general audience.
Actually given the number of Rhino's I actually see on a daily basis there is a large chance that I am correct on this. The reason being is this, Rhino serves no niche roll in WF and is therefore not NEEDED for anything at all. Sure some may mess around on him every now and then but on the whole I rarely see him in any circumstance other than a player f'ing around and just playing precisely what they want without regard to composition of the party.
What I want to see is a change in this mindset which would allow Rhino a true place among our warframes other than as a buffer for farming and so that it is not the same 4-8 frames I see all day.
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Added optional fix for desecrate to become a durational AOE as this would fix the need for him to constantly spam 3.
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Off the top of my head I think we earn around 500 to 1000 Rep doing missions normally depending on the mission. Some low tier stuff can earn about 300 Rep.
Draco Style with abilities only earns us around 5k rep in 1 wave or 2k Rep approx if we are being mobile. 1 wave takes around 10 to 15 minutes at a guess.
Yes those numbers area accurate. In 4 rounds at Draco it equates to approximately 20k rep with a 15% Sigil on. So in 2 runs you complete the daily allotment of reputation. Whereas a normal mission(non endless represents from 500-1,000. Thus spam farmers garner in the same amount of time virtually(accounting for completing 5 missions at 1k rep in the time of one draco run) 5x the rep others acquire. Now it is possible doing endless defense or survival to make that much in a single run however it requires 2-3x as much time and much more effort to do so.
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Ty DrBorris. I am just trying to ensure that DE is looking at the big picture here. The reason they have feedback is to find out what needs changes and more often than not it feels as though they simply do not get the overall sentiment from amongst the forum users. There is a reason I have stated that DE needs a dedicated community "digger". Someone to sort through the various topics on a subject in order to create a consensus of the data contained therein and convey it to DE for application.
We are not necessarily concerned with damage numbers so often as we are concerned with the viability of a frames powers. Will X power measure up under X number of situations. Additionally there should be much more emphasis on Mechanics over pretty much everything else. Give abilities and frames the capability to carry on much further than balanced content IF a player is skilled enough. What we are truly looking to be able to do is shatter previous accomplishments once we fully acquire the necessary skill set to properly handle each frame. Currently many frames lack the ability to go near as far as many others and that strikes me as wrong and leaning towards a tiered Warframe system, which DE adamantly refuses the existence of.
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I still think everyone here is over thinking the problem. Frankly, every since they changed WoF, I have used fireblast to replace it since it's just better. It has a knock back, with an augment it can panic and in the long run it costs less. They almost had me using all 4 of my abilities but since it feels like WoF conflicts so much more now with my builds I don't care about using it. Just make it a true toggle and call it a day. I like accelerant because it makes my hek fire build do a bananas amount of damage and I've already explained my position on fire blast (then again, I could do without the LoS requirement but I won't call them out on it if they don't remove it).
That's precisely the point. The fact that we are "ALMOST" using all of our abilities. They need to make it a rewarding experience across the board to use said abilities. They need to make sure we are not constantly bickering over the abilities themselves. Sure there is a certain percentage of players that will always be unhappy, however the majority of us are looking at things from a balance perspective and realize that there are inconsistencies with the design implementations and we simply want these inconsistencies resolved.
Ember has 2 glaring inconsistencies at the moment. One is the mechanic of Fire Blast that causes enemies to completely avoid it the majority of the time. No other ability in game suffers from this occurrence. This is unacceptable.
The other is WoF's issue of being beholden to both an energy drain per second mechanic as well as a durational restriction. WoF is not equal to Mirage's ult in that it does not provide any added benefit to its cancellation and therefore it's toggle /end of duration serves no purpose other than being able to turn it off. Mesa's Peace Maker is an extremely fast ability that has a balanced energy drain mechanic and thus is not a problem. Banshee's energy drain is again well balanced and is not a problem. Nyx's absorb is quite frankly over powered IMO providing total damage immunity and a subsequently insanely powerful burst of damage with an energy drain that makes sense.
Ember has an energy drain that is prohibitive to consistent use as she MUST rely on Accelerant constantly for her damage to remain relevant longer and to ensure she locks enemies down because of her extremely fragile state. When we add to that fact that she is beholden to duration to increase her efficiency(because recasting WoF consistently is more cost vs value prohibitive) we see a greater gap in the energy use vs value formula.
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I kind of like the direction this idea is going. But it seems like it would mess with allies' damage choices. But maybe striking off the armor would make up for this.
Its weird to me that people would rather replace Accelerant, a hard cc with a high up time that prevents the majority of dangerous enemies from attacking both you and your teammates, with an ability that only protects Ember when she is taking hits. I think a room-wide cc ability that prevents enemy retaliation and simultaneously happens to multiply all of Ember's damage is vastly more useful. I guess it's a difference between people who like a highly active frame where you have to cast multiple abilities frequently versus those who like long duration abilities that you can set-and forget while focusing on your gunplay. That's the only reason I can think of why some folk dislike casting 2 as much as they can.
Maybe my perspective is skewed by my highly specialized endgame mod selection (Fleeting expertise, Quicking Thinking, etc.). And perhaps it's when Ember is using just the entry level basic mods. (Streamline, Continuity etc.) that her skillset is not satisfying her expectations. So somehow the devs have to balance her so she's satisfying and safe to play at the entry level while not becoming overpowered or having her potential nerfed when using specialized mod sets.
I agree Ryjeon. I feel that accelerant serves a great purpose however I feel that because damage falls off so fast on enemies due to scaling people feel that it is absolutely necessary that they spam accelerant for the damage buff. Consequently it makes Ember feel like she absolutely must have a spam setup rather than going their preferred build of duration when possible. The reason people are asking for a personal defensive ability is because of Ember's up close and personal nature and the fact that the only thing that scales into late game is a CC. It feels exceedingly weird that a glass cannon frame is forced to be a cc bot at later levels.
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Le sigh. So much syandana talk so little focus on real issues with frames languishing in unused states, or being relegated to Farmer John status. People get a clue about what matters most in this game.
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Folks we need to continue to flood these kinds of posts with various feedback regarding this matter until it is resolved to our satisfaction. I know fixing these things is not always easy but it is up to us to ensure our voices are heard, and our satisfaction with all the frames is the number one priority in this game. Neither DE nor we as players can afford to let matters such as these rest until we are all happy. Remember we players are the deciding factor of when something is "In a good place" so let's make sure we are happy with the results or at least not frustrated or upset over them.
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Quite frankly I'm beyond caring what they do on the ult as long as they make a change from how it is currently set up and continue to change it until we come to a point where the players do not feel as though we are being unjustly treated because of people abusing the energy loophole.
Also Fire Blast must have the AI interaction of avoiding the ring removed. The sheer fact that they avoid it is a form of prejudice towards the ability that makes no sense in a game where enemies will blindly run into a bastielle, vortex, or a myriad of other abilities and it flat out removes 50% of the reason you cast the skill to begin with.
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The tweaks to them are nice and all, but there's still frames that do Ember's job better, and as you said Nekros is still more of a job than a choice to play. I still don't find myself playing him in anything other than survival because even with the Terrify changes, other frames perform CC much better. He's still only gonna be used for Survival really, and he still doesn't feel amazing to play.
As for Ember, well, feel free to read my topic so i don't have to write everything again: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/391188-so-should-world-on-fires-duration-be-removed/#entry4314276
The changes to under-appreciated frames were nice, but i can't help but feel like Ember needs tweaks to WoF for her to be fun to play, because at the moment, WoF feels exactly the same as the old one, apart from the 'instant 5 target' buff.
The entire point here is that all frames should be equally viable at their given role with no appreciable difference between them except in their mechanics. DE has constantly stated that they refuse to accept the statement that there are certain tiers of frames in various categories. I am simply putting out a notice that they should stand by there word and make it true rather than a byline with no representation in reality.
Make all frames worthy of a slot in the party. Allow no frame to be relegated to the dust closet and forgotten.
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100% behind you on this thread Archwizard! Keep it up man. We are committed to battering at the gates of Hell(DE) and will assist in any way we can.
I have posted a letter to DE in these very same forums to hopefully get some more press for the frame issues that still exist and perhaps even get some official response. It may in all actuality get removed even though it has no vulgar language and no dev bashing whatsoever but meh I can always re-post it from various accounts at various locations until the idea actually hits home and takes root.
Keep up the good work and know the community is behind this in every way!
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OP updated to include application of Mirage's Hall of Mirrors player interaction to shadows created by Shadows of the Dead.
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Personally, I think Ember and Nekros are both in a better place now. I have used both equally as much. WoF still needs work, but I definitely love using Nekros, and he feels a lot more useful than he was before (I still think his Desecrate needs changing though so he's a choice and not a job)
They'll probably put some finishing touches on them, but everyone in their studio has their own job. It's usually that 1 guy and his team (The Better Nerf Trinity guy, I can't remember the name :P) that handles most of the balancing concerning these, and Steve as well.
Oh, please do not get me wrong. In this post I am pointing directly at the Balance team as I assume they are the ones who handle these things judging by all the dev streams. This post is in regard to the various frame reworks that have occurred and the states in which the various frames languish for extensive periods of time before they finally hit the drawing board again. This post is aimed at ensuring that DE is given an ear full(or in this case an eye full) in as eloquent a manner as I am capable of providing.
They need to be heeding the countless hours of feedback we provide and consequently making changes to a point where they are not consistently bombarded with insane amounts of feedback on a matter. When the feedback STOPS in regard to a matter is when it is "In a good place" and not when they think it is.
The fact of the matter is that many things get overlooked for so long that they just get ignored by not only the devs but by the players too. What that causes is a piece of the game to virtually die and I would hate to see that occur in any aspect of Warframe. I want to see literally every single frame used equally across the WF universe. I never want to play with the same composition of frames even twice in a single day given the chance.
Variety is the spice of life and in Warframes case it's major draw. Anything that is considered mastery fodder or pump and dump needs to be changed but it's most dangerous occurrences of this mindset occur with it's frames.
Warframes are the most essential feature and cannot afford to be allowed to languish in an unused state.
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Put that on an augment if anything. Knockdown on every hit feels like training wheels to me, especially given how much CC Ember has available. Super-consistent abilities are boring in comparison; Ember is all about being close to danger all the time and having to keep yourself safe while killing efficiently so that it's possible to cover all openings without running out of energy in a compromising situation. She can be cheesy with Accelerant spam and her high damage but she can't just afk-clear every mission; you actually have to play your frame to succeed.
The point in that blast proc was to actually give WoF a reason to be so damnably frustrating. Currently the skill literally has no reason to exist in it's current iteration. With the new prohibitive costs to operate I felt that if they wanted to continue in this vein of a more costly ultimate ability, they need to make it worth a players while to use it.
Currently it is not only more expensive than a majority of the ults, it is one of only two abilities in game that harshly penalize you for increasing duration while simultaneously NEEDING duration to be effective. The only other ult that utilizes these mechanics has an added effect at the end of it's use that helps to make the ult more worthwhile.
I was simply attempting to make it clear what they could do via one or both methods to further alleviate this matter and potentially quell the litany of complaints from we forum users.
On the matter of an augment I say give us an augment that returns WoF to it's former glory but in a small radius. Allow the Phoenix to rise again. In fact I can absolutely assure you that Ember players would cease to be problematic for the developers if they allowed us that one small victory.
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Over the years playing Warframe I have seen a torrential flood of content flow forth from Digital Extremes. Sometimes great, and sometimes not very inspired. There are many things communicated to DE throughout the course of a day by it's fans and most ardent supporters.
Many of us are committed to ensuring this game moves forward and evolves to a truly untouchable state as the number one multiplayer game online. There are those of us who have put in over one thousand hours in game and are highly adept at recognizing weaknesses in any particular facet of this project.
We spend many hours discussing relevant issues and TRYING to get DE to actually notice matters within these forums that pertain to their lifeblood. Warframe is a passion of ours that causes many heated debates over various issues and occurrences. Sure we have our trolls and a few that are not quite as adept at recognizing where some frames/weapons strengths lie, but on the whole I often feel that the player base is in fact even more knowledgeable than it's developers.
Why? Because we spend hours and hours both playing the game ensuring our hands on experience matches up precisely with all the data we peruse and time being in many discussions regarding various issues that are long standing or newly arisen.
Now comes the problem. There are thousands upon thousands of posts regarding various frames/weapons that go completely unheeded for months and months. Weapons lie unused. Frames see the light of day only for newer users and are subsequently forgotten.
Then lo and behold one of our old fan favorites gets a look and is tweaked just slightly. Subsequently the forums are lit on fire by a massive torrent of feedback and what happens...we get a certain dev making statements that the frame in question is "In a good place". I'll not commit to name shaming here regarding said dev but I do question if this person is actually playing this game and understands all it's issues at the moment.
Feedback is delivered by this player base on a constant basis and while some of it is not penned in the most eloquent manner, it is all provided with a passion rarely seen from gamers in today's day and age.
Free to play games online are quite often just ignored once things start to go downhill. In Warframes case though, the community has taken it upon ourselves to push you developers harder than any other studio I have seen to date. We make it known where we see problems and try to ensure that possible solutions to the various quandaries that you may have are broached and discussed amongst a much larger party than you have in office. Thus we try to garner the best possible answers to these problems from among the individuals they will affect the most. It's players.
Yes some people's suggestions are outlandish, and some are perfectly balanced and workable within the confines of balance. What we need from you at DE is constant vigilance and an eye on the problems we report. We need Constant balance improvements to various frames and weapons. We do not need to have our concerns regarding various matters subsequently ignored or disregarded.
If this fact bothers you, suck it up cupcake. It will not stop at any point so long as you choose to be a purveyor of entertainment.
In short get it right the first time you try to do something. If you don't, fix it. In fact continue to fix it until we no longer rant about it for 50-300 pages of text.
Lastly finish fixing Ember and Nekros before you do ANYTHING ELSE. Stop allowing yourselves to be side tracked and most of all PAY ATTENTION TO THE PLAYERS BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY DECIDE WHEN SOMETHING IS IN A GOOD PLACE.
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Looking for more feedback on this folks. We need to push these posts until the devs understand that partial fixes cannot be done. This is quite a long standing problem that needs to be addressed.
We have had too many instances where things were made to be worse over time by the devs hopping around and never quite finishing a job. The a prime example of this was Ash and his Bladestorm problems and most recently Ember has gotten fiddled with and yet her problems lie unresolved while the devs hop over to Nekros to ALMOST fix his problems.
Please don't let these kinds of things go. When the devs set about to bringing frames up to a worthwhile point, make sure they know what is wrong and continue to make it an issue that REQUIRES their attention. Otherwise we will end up with a bunch of frames that are only good to press one button over and over again(Farmer Nekros).
We can help them change how people view frames and classify them as worthless or only good for one thing IF we are persistent in feedback. Let's allow Ember and Nekros a bit of the spotlight for a while until we see more and more people playing them.
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Absolutely none, NONE, of this is allowed to happen until
1.) The feedback involving the rework of augments and abilities happen (so that the devs aren't hypocritical; seeing as they said they wouldn't make augments like patches to the abilities when they are exactly that, especially when you look at Excalibur's Surging Dash and how Slash Dash suddenly got the ability to add to the combo counter... HMMMM...)
2.) Parkour gets a rework, so that these said glass cannons don't need their damage reduction abilities because Parkour and the penalty to enemies is synergistic enough that they don't get hit so damn often.
3.) Until you change this post so that you're not nerfing other frames. Used Rhino Prime today and yesterday, just got done spending an hour and twenty in a void survival. Iron Skin lasted pretty well with just Blind Rage, so I don't see a need to Nerf Mirage, Mesa, Frost and Valkyr and makes Iron skin have the potential to be more powerful than Mesa's Shatter shield currently is.
That's exactly why I put forward many changes in the Augments should not Fix abilities post for AlphaHorseman. I am also trying to help these guys sort out Iron Skin as well. Don't worry we'll get him there. Don't worry about his nerf to do list. We have never agreed with it nor will we.
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Can't... +1... Hard enough...
Thank you ^^
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Man, you guys are reeeeally putting a lot of ..... effort on this.
You guys better ask for a new actual tank frame than a total rework for this frame that's already too goofy.
The entire point to this thread is the fact that Rhino has been kind of left to Rot. I'm pretty sure DE has not verified his usage numbers amongst NON new players in quite awhile. New players get him then spam the crap out of him...then they pretty much disregard his existence.
I think that DE should pay close attention to frames that get no play time and steadily try to bring them on par with the most played frames. Once we finally get everyone to a good place WITH THE PLAYERS(Not you [DE]Scott or Grineer whatever the heck your name is), then we can rest for a bit on these types of threads.
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Now now, I actually do like this option. Because it'll test me on going only abilities. Its encouraging people to use their powers, and if that means the entirety of the kit, or even most or two powers, I'd say that's still a good tactic. If they choose that tactic, so be it, they chose it. If they don't then that's because they don't want to do it. Remember that this is all optional, that players can choose which tactics to go under, so we shouldn't be limiting it simply because we may not like it.
The point being man that abilities already give a player in FFA the opportunity to gain affinity in much larger quantity than any other way in game.
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Hmm rather than all these changes we have been asking for, would things be acceptable if we asked for a defensive buff up to the point of say Rhino so that Ember could viably be a front line damage frame? That way we could put in a Steel Fiber and be much more resilient but even if we focused pure damage then it would still be enough defense to help out with her MO of rush into the fray to apply dps. Whereas the other squishee glass cannons can apply dps from a more safe location and therefore are justified in their lower armor ratings.
I think that would go leagues farther to shore up her kits overall playstyle PRIOR to buffing something else. Don't get me wrong I feel like her skills need some more fine tuning but it still feels like she is meant to be a close combat frame without the statistics to back that playstyle.
So to summarize:
1. Armor buffed to 190 to ensure her close combat style is not detrimental to her overall survival.
2. Fix Fire Blast so enemies do not avoid the ring of fire(why should enemies avoid this 1 skill out of all skills in the game).
3. Remove WoF's duration entirely or give it a guaranteed blast proc on hit.
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Ok on the defense tactics listing I have a few concerns.
Tactics Selections
Executions- Can we even shoot enemies that are knocked down? Also what happens if we knock them down and kill them via the knockdown attack?
Finishers- What if we kill the target on the knockdown attempt? Additionally this seems to be an exceedingly difficult prospect because often times the melee will just swing rather that completing the proper finisher animation. Plus could you imagine actually performing nothing but Finishers or executions given the number of enemies we face in defensive missions?
Maybe the above 2 examples would work if spawn numbers were altered to suit the tactical selection?
Abilities only- Would that not entirely encourage skill spam and be counterproductive to the attempt to reduce ability spam? I am entirely against this tactics implementation due to the fact that this would encourage said spam and actually rewards players for doing so. Bad idea IMO
Camping- Camping is what we are required to do in defenses mostly anyway. It seems this would be a better tactic applied to Survival however that would be impossible as one could not acquire LS nor could one feasibly camp without powers. Additionally one could not protect the pod at all with guns alone as enemies often ignore players in favor of shooting the pod anyway.
As far as any of the other tactics mentioned in your post are concerned I would be happy to play them as long as non damage abilities and buffs are still allowed.
Skill Kill- I would call this: Way of The Shinobi. The reason I suggest this change is to further emphasize the acrobatic and skillful ways that we can take down our foes. Additionally this is reminiscent of the traditional ninja's famed behaviors and tactics. I realize it does not as easily roll off the tongue but it does serve to represent the overall idea of Warframe that we are space ninjas and should act like it as often as possible to advance ourselves in the skills that are relevant to this theme.
Wall Running headshot- Woah there man. That is really really setting the bar a bit high. Perhaps it should be wall running kills with an additional bonus for the headshot kill?
As far as the rest of the Skill Kill listings I am in total agreement.
I would also suggest:
Airborne melee kills- This would further emphasize the acrobatic nature of the game.
Counter kills- When a player parries a melee attack from an opponent they are often given a finisher prompt. This should be rewarded as it takes a certain level of skill to perform with regularity.
Additionally I think honestly that in order to facilitate any stealth oriented gameplay we should also include a petition to DE to allow finishers to actually kill the opponent. There have been countless times when I hit a stealth finisher only to have the target get back up off the ground. It seems absolutely horrendous to me that we can sneak up behind a target and subsequently knock them to their knees then place a scythe over their throats and kick them ripping the scythe through their throats and neck without killing them. Or impaling them on the ground and have them get back up to continue to attack us. tl:dr Finishers SHOULD finish the target.
As an additional thought, maybe the required tactics would be the only things usable period in the given tactics selection as to prevent anyone in the party from being able to ruin the other users chances at the bonuses or playstyle they signed up for during tactics selection?
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The only complaint I have about Terrify is that it conflicts with SOTD. To make one cast of SOTD do enough damage, you need to make SOTD last as long as possible using Narrow Minded, which reduces range and makes Terrify pretty much only useful when the enemy is in your face.
IMO DE should make Terrify's range unaffected by range mods, like Mesa's Peacemaker.
I see the conflict and understand the merit of the idea however, for my part I do not use Narrow Minded so I am unaffected by this. Also in truth IDK if I would have a problem there anyway because I like them to gtfo for as long as possible usually as it guarantees I can pick up downed players easily.
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Thanks for that but I figured I'd go try it out for myself. Anecdotal evidence ahoy!
Admittedly, I did NOT try it out 60 minutes into a T4Surv. I'm not going to spend that much time and effort just to find out it doesn't work well and possibly be a burden to the team. Instead, I ventured solo into a T3Capt. since it is a more controlled environment and level makes no difference to the Nullifier bubble. I saw a grand total of three Nullifiers compared to about ten Bombards and about ten Heavy Gunners. The first Nullifier I couldn't properly test as I met him at a doorway by surprise. I backed away, half charged my Opticor and fired. His bubble popped. Yeah, maybe I should have remembered to take Striker out of my Carrier... The second Nullifier I met in one of the large open Y-shaped rooms with pressure pads that sometimes open loot, underneath and up an updraft. Since I'd managed to spot him from a distance I was actually able to let experimentation begin! I crouched by a barricade and fired a full clip of third-to-half charged shots, just enough to actually get a shot but not any more because there's no need fo rfull damage. He moved behind a pillar, I reload as I move across to get sight again, I fire four shots. His bubble bursts and the last shot in the second clip kills him. The third and final Nullifier I met in a narrow corridor off one of the large halls with the spheres full of containers in the ceiling. He had Bombard with him! Not that surprising since they did vastly outnumber the Nullifiers... Anyway, I had captured both targets by this point and the Nullifiers were scarce so I didn't want the Bombard messing up the test and I ran back into the hall. This actually gave me a chance to test something else though. The hall swarmed with Crewmen and Lancers and two more Bombards so I took cover and picked a few off, repositioned to another pillar and picked off a few more. They tried to flush me out, advancing on me, leaving behind the Nullifier. I was able to clear the rest of the room and tackle him last. Use terrain and they can be avoided. When I went to take him on, same as last time, 5 shots, reposition and reload, 4 shots to finish the bubble, fifth for the kill. Mods used on Opticor: Serration 10, Vile Acceleration 5, Shred 5. No Catalyst, no Forma.
Tl;dr: The Opticor can kill a Nullifier in exactly two clips if you add a fair bit of fire rate and only half charge it.
Precisely the point being that in the time it took you to kill it, the high ROF weapon could have killed 2 or 3 of them thus our outcry.
A Notice To De!
in Warframes
Posted
While I agree that DE should be careful in their application of various changes, I cannot however agree to the way they handle said changes. There are many well thought out discussions regarding balance and exploitation that take place in the many threads that you speak about. It would not be difficult for DE to review said data and come to a consensus of player beliefs contained therein and TRY SOMETHING. Subsequently they review feedback of what they tried and try again.
Quite frankly I do not feel that DEScott puts in near as much time with the game as our players do and therefore is remiss in his duties to players. What needs to occur is a constant give and take in all things to achieve a proper point where everyone can be satisfied that the utmost care has been taken in regards to the overall usefulness and viability of EVERYTHING in game. Also if DE wants it's frames to all avoid the stigma of being "lower tier frames" then they need to work with the players that KNOW.
Currently I have seen a large preponderance for DE to only take into account the design councils input on various matters and even then limit exactly what the design councils input can even be on various topics, such as the augments thing that Jax mentioned in our Rhino IS thread. Disallowing real choice via locking the specific choices players have for said augments is a sure fire way to only cause more problems than solve. Additionally making augments into worthwhile changes for abilities is a problem as well. What I am asking for is an end to bandaids from augments and a re-imagining of the abilities themselves that allow them to be functional without reliance on augments. I want augments to be ADDED BONUSES and a way to add new Variables to our playstyles.