TheLexiConArtist
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Posts posted by TheLexiConArtist
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2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:
It comes a lot down to the frame in question.
True, I did say generally, but also take care to note that I said marginalisation of benefit from over-efficiency.
Even if duration is completely irrelevant, you're still paying a little extra for stat that isn't being used on anything with a direct cost. However, it's also more often a case of 'unimportant' than 'irrelevant'; not to need the added duration doesn't always mean it wouldn't be a however-minor benefit were it still present - outside of certain things like Tribute as you mentioned. -
I find everyone complaining about 'more grind' with the rank 5 arcanes to be absolutely dumb.
It's literally 1 (one) more than you would have farmed for a double-stack to begin with. Number tweaks and mechanical tweaks aside, there's literally a mere 5% more of a task to 'fully complete' the set - and that's after the event which is a million times easier by virtue of removing the RNG wall.
If you want to complain about the mechanics and numbers, do so. But calling it 'more grindy' as a result of moving from 2x3 to 1x5 is just disingenuous.
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3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:
On frames with channeling skills you can make use of 190% efficiency, those extra 15% apply on channeled skills. With 190% efficiency you are only required to have 40% duration in order to hit the cost cap on channeled skills.
You can make use of >175% efficiency stat in the channelling equation, but the equation nonetheless still caps at 175% net efficiency.
It sounds good on paper, but non-channeled abilities can easily achieve better net uptime/efficiency than 4x by scaling from the two stats separately, while also retaining all energy acquisition sources for the purpose of upkeep. Generally a frame will not be 100% reliant on only channelling skills, either, which further marginalises the effect of over-efficiency.
Having an ability be channelled is a limitation, not a benefit.
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Innate Multishot Weapons were fixed, not nerfed. Having 0.1% status chance be abruptly responsible for a twofold increase in output was not sensible. Someone made a poor decision a while back that resulted in breakable maths, and it should've been addressed long ago the moment someone suggested Riven dispositions might be sacrosanct for certain weapons just to facilitate crossing that breaking threshold.
As a result, the previous 'have' weapons/builds are normalised with the 'have-not's. Outliers pulled in line, everything else improved significantly. Except the Artemis Bow, which never got the base chance upgrade when the maths were changed, so it's just increasingly worse than before the more status chance you're trying to use..
That aside, continuous weapons are still a special case though. Isn't the 'multishot as pure damage' an obsolete factor of the past anyway, when they wanted to limit the damage events being produced? We have tons of ticks being tossed out by other weapons now, it's no longer necessary, especially since it hamstrings status output inconsistently compared to non-continuous weapons.
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Self-damage.
Entitled space-babies who couldn't handle <10% (or even <4% if looking at purely dumb explosives) of weapons having a risk mechanic they personally don't enjoy interacting with had no basis to cause the removal of that 'thrill' niche for players who enjoyed actually mastering the weapons in spite of their risks.
Also staggers feel terrible. I'd rather an impressive risk that demands that I play better than lipservice to a risk that doesn't actually accomplish anything but being a bothersome nuisance.
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22 hours ago, CopperBezel said:
DoTs care only about the amount of damage you give them, and do not care about the number of proc events it's broken into. This means that a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance does not change their effect. Corrosive and the other newly stacking statuses do not care about damage, and instead, a larger number of projectiles at the same status chance is a direct multiplier on the size of the stack you're creating. It's not any more complicated than this.
Clarifying better:
DoT statuses are a product of the damage base of the pellet which procced, and the number of such procs accumulated.
Ergo, 10 pellets of 100 damage with 50% status chance is the same average output as 20 pellets of 50 damage with 50% status chance, as it is 10 pellets of 50 damage with 100% status chance on each.
A*B/C where A is pellet count, B is damage base, C is the status chance reciprocal (1/x).Non-damage statuses are a product of the number of procs accumulated exclusively.
Ergo, 10 pellets at 50% status chance nets the same output as 20 pellets with 25% status chance, or 5 pellets with 100% chance. Damage base of these pellets is wholly irrelevant.
A/C where A is pellet count, C is the status reciprocal, and damage-base as B is not used.Typed distribution of damage values affects both kinds of status as a further factoring of net procs (pellets / chance) in order to ascertain how many of the net procs per shot will be a certain specific status type.
So, for example, a Tigris Prime is comparable or even slightly superior to a Boar Prime in terms of damage procs (~4x fewer net procs but each proportionally ~4.6x more potent), but weaker in terms of non-damage procs (~4x fewer net procs, damage irrelevant).
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35 minutes ago, Lluid said:
- I couldn't find the Conculyst in the simulacrum, not sure why.
Some pillock curating the player's Simulacrum qualified units accidentally removed the Conculyst when they were meant to remove the new Condrix. That's probably the only reason why we were able to spawn the giant eyeball in there; it, like so many targets that would be incredibly useful to test against even as a dumb punching-bag, was supposed to be arbitrarily withheld again.
Wouldn't want us testing in a controlled environment to find out you're using some odd, underhanded single-source DPS soft-capping on the "solo friendly" mission's main target, after all, would they?
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- TYPE: In-Game
- DESCRIPTION: Symbilyst laser still bypasses physical/projectile obstruction abilities
- VISUAL: (edit later if I grab one)
- REPRODUCTION: Using Mass Vitrify, Snowglobe; observe Symbilyst using ranged laser-focusing attack on a target beyond the obstacle
- EXPECTED RESULT: Symbilyst laser is blocked by obstruction
- OBSERVED RESULT: Symbilyst laser bypasses obstruction
- REPRODUCTION RATE: 100%
- TYPE: In-Game
- DESCRIPTION: Brachiolyst dash attack bypasses physical obstruction abilities
- VISUAL: (video would only prove this, and I am unable)
- REPRODUCTION: Using Mass Vitrify, observe Brachiolyst using dash attack on a target beyond the obstacle
- EXPECTED RESULT: Entity is physically blocked by obstruction
- OBSERVED RESULT: Entity bypasses obstruction
- REPRODUCTION RATE: 100%
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12 minutes ago, xMarvin732 said:
Sadly that still would make her the same old boring Warframe since her WoF was the most of the abilities that i used, i really like her new 2nd Ability and the 1st ability to be able to charge
She wouldn't be the only Warframe using other abilities very sparingly, but at least it'd work without feeling like everything you do is stepping on your own toes. Even then, you'd have 2+4 for persistent ability AOE doing more than 'meh' damage thanks to fire proc changes, and 1+2 (with augments) for sheer direct weapon output, leaving only 3 as the ill-used ability it always was.. unless you wanted to use its Volt Shield-esque bonus damage for shooting through it.
Accelerant was a very nice ability, if that had been moved to being her 'heat dump' instead of keeping Fire Blast for the rework it would have been much nicer, IMO.
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2 hours ago, xMarvin732 said:
Negative Part of the Rework, they removed her World on Fire Speed Run Ability.
Positive Part of the Rework, they made her a viable frame, being able to combine her abilities instead of focussing mostly on WoF.
(I used the pre reworked Embers second and third ability aswell, instead of only keeping WoF on)Debatable.
They axed the majority of her firepower (or more specifically, her Fire power, i.e. having up to three multipliers of heat output, now just 0-1). It was odd to make the 'burn the world caster' more of a buffer/debuffer to scale but it was an option, at least.
They gave her a self-defeating energy economy where you have to spam spending energy to stave off losing energy through drain. Lose-lose situation there.
They gave her scaling damage resistance on something that cannot be maintained, making it effectively unreliable to expect anything above the baseline DR of 50% (which is useless when other warframes with DR abilities are generally boasting 5 to 10 times more effective health multiplier at a completely reliable state).
And the benefit of total armour strip exists only when you're in the critical overheat level, insinuating more drain, while also being on the ability that reduces heat level, meaning you have to let it re-heat before you can do your job again.
It's a complete mess, honestly. Just having WoF as it was before the range nerf, and having the Heat proc changes to date, would have actually made Ember quite potent.
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56 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:
And now the shotguns that used to be able to reach 100% status can’t even reach 50% status and are absolutely useless. Like shotguns were stuck at 30% per pellet regardless of status chance until it reached 100%. And now All of them are stuck at 30% or lower. And the status stacking doesn’t compensate for this in the slightest. This shotgun “balance” is nothing more than a shotgun nerf. And for you to consider this an improvement is asinine.
Minimally 20% better proc rate disagrees, sir. A fix for what broke it, but the shotguns generally don't need to pass 50% spp to pump out the procs per second they were capable of doing up until that breaking point, using the new maths.
Also that 340% status chance takes everything over 30% per-pellet chance except the basic Boar, the Corinth, the basic Drakgoon, and the basic Strun (plus its Mk-1 variant)... none of which were able to hit the magic 100%-per-pellet at that same modded status chance before.
Hey, here's an idea, let's bring this back to this thread's subject by figuring out the benefits afforded to Artemis Bow by the Shotgun changes, if it was treated accordingly.
Artemis Stats:
7 Multishot ('pellets')
20% Base Status Chance
0.9 redraw time (aka 1/0.9 fire rate as charging is unnecessary)Old Maths:
Status Per Pellet: 3.137%
Procs Per Second (base): 0.244
Procs Per Second (340% status): 1.168New Maths (Expected):
Expected Status/Pellet: 8.57%
Procs Per Second (base): 0.66...
Procs Per Second (340%): 2.266...
New/Old PPS (base): 273.2% proc potential
New/Old PPS (340%): 194% proc potential.New Maths (Actual due to 3x Net Status Ignorance):
Status/Pellet: 2.857%
Procs Per Second (base): 0.22...
Procs Per Second (340%): 0.755...
Ignorance New/Old PPS (base): 91% proc potential
Ignorance New/Old PPS (340%): 64.67% proc potentialArtemis' status chance is broken. What should have been almost double the previous output on a status build has been slashed to just under two-thirds of it.
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3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:
I’m sorry but if you think a shotgun reaching 100% is over performance you’re insane. I meam at least with the old shot gun status the shotguns actually procced Status.
I've gone over it in great detail over in the respective thread. The facts are clear once you plug in the numbers - 100% status shotguns did far more status than they had any right to be doing. But that's obvious if you compare what 99% status chance did for them before. My previous comment of 300% output at 0.1% difference was hyperbole, but it could easily reach 200%. They're not broken now, but they do scale at a sensible rate below that threshold. By and large, a bug fix that improves them (and removes awkward pigeonholed build obligations).
Except, as we're here - Artemis Bow languishing in the old and broken maths, while having no hope of crossing that magical threshold to the point of tipping the scales from under- to over-perform.
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Those sorts of people will still buy whatever they think benefits them the most. If they ascribe to your theory that Kuva in the shop will maintain Arcane prices, then they'd simply still buy Arcanes for the more stable profit margin instead of betting on a Kuva bank for whatever random rivens they might try to flip.
And then there are people who will just do whatever amuses them at the time. Like me. I'm going to have over a million ScarSpear creds more than I've needed to max my arcanes, assuming they don't put more (unreleased/arbi) in stock, but am I going to buy extras to flip for peanuts? Nah. I'm just going to get so many Stance Forma blueprints I could put one on every melee in the game, if I felt like it. They're not even useful. Just to say I could.
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42 minutes ago, CloudATL said:
Honestly, the hunt is really good with Ivara. Being an eidolon fanatic here, and having heard from the hunters community a lot there's no real issue with her - besides the latest castanas bug we experienced, but that's a bug, right ? -. Castanas isn't mandatory, she can 6X3 with artemis bow, and made runs possible with weapons such as the Stug or the Wolf Sledge.
For the record, I haven't done the hunt with Castanas, but I walked out alone onto the plains at launch, as Ivara with a stat-stick primary for my Artemis bow (as was the nature at the time) and toughed it out with my piddly mote amp for a first-night kill, then capture soon after.. the many bugs notwithstanding. The 'spread average' mechanics for the Bow do make life difficult in general at times (certain buffs rendered near-useless), and getting up high enough to land several hits of the full fan on the later Eidolons is much less simple than it is to chunk away Terry's arm-plates. Can't say whether that's meta-capable of the speediest run, but yes it is passable in damage (assuming you go hard on strength and build-specialise).
If the augment for Artemis did concentrate the arrows, you wouldn't be missing half your shots if you got a bad jump position or firing angle, and being able to confer the full Navigator multiplier on that.
Let's say 240*7 = 1480 base damage arrow, multiplied by navigator's base 5x, 8400 base damage, then multiplied by the square of Power Strength as it stacks by affecting both Nav and Artemis - we could be looking at 300% strength easily, so another 9x multiplier bringing the base damage before Artemis' mod loadout to 75600. Getting spicy.
Looking at my terribly outdated slapdash mods I still have on that stat-stick primary I used back then, the damage output (ignoring the crit stats) is a solid 24x multiplier. Could be looking at a base damage of 1.8 million on a fully-stack Navigated Concentrated Arrow. That has to compete with the Eidolon's armour/DR, of course, but also could crit and has some damage-typing bonus. Still, that's a fairly big-boy number all the same, isn't it?59 minutes ago, CloudATL said:Many augment mods allow to play the spell differently, instead of "making it better". I like this idea of adding AOE to her kit. Idk what you have in mind about the precise work, you can develop ?
I wouldn't question Navigator here, it's not the point of this discussion, however all the niche plays about it keep it fun the way it is - in my opinion.
About Concentrated Arrow especially, do we all agree there's a massive damage issue right now ?
Concentrated Arrow always had a damage issue: Reducing it by a factor of 7 unless you landed a headshot - on Warframe's notoriously temperamental head-hitboxes. The explosion itself only scaled into relevance if you rolled that 30% Hunter's Munitions slash proc on it. That's all before the falloff changes. It was bad before, it's a complete joke now - and it's the only plausible excuse DE might be using to deny Artemis from having Split Flights when the Cernos Prime (mechanically identical but with lesser innate multishot count) can use it. So, Concentrated Arrow is bad and stops non-Concentrated Arrow from being made better. Seems legit.
I'll not go into too much depth on Navigator, but it definitely has problems. It's losing most of its niche for productive offensive uses through indirect changes such as the Zenistar being massacred in usability, it's anti-synergetic because you want LESS duration to access power faster for ~reasons~, and it has issues in its cost design and usability (control problems, flat punch-through also limiting use). It's handy.. for putting a Quiver arrow where you can't just go shoot it directly. That's about its sum total right now.
17 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:Oh yes. Needing to mod to get what used to be the shotguns base status chance is totally how they were intended to be designed. Because that’s not completely backwards logic or anything.
I admit I was looking at the wrong column of my spreadsheet, that's what I get for hasty posts while upkeeping Scarlet Spear progress.
Unmodded the shotguns listed for comparison by a user over in the respective thread all got 240% - 284% better proc per second potential.
Modded to a baseline of 340% total status chance (aka 4*60/60 mods) the shotguns got buffed ranging from ~120% potential on the Sancti Tigris to 192% potential (and an outlier of 244% on the Corinth, but that's just proportional, its actual output is still potato.)
Only shotguns which previously broke the equation by hitting 100% (and therefore were over-performing) got reduced in potential at this status chance baseline to 30.6% (Kuva Drakgoon), 38.4% (Tigris Prime and Boar Prime), and 40.8% (Strun Wraith).But sure, you go on about how 0.1% status chance being responsible for a 300% performance difference isn't completely nonsensical.
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48 minutes ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:
How did you arrive at 340%? The facts are, previously you only needed 150% to reach 100% status chance per pellet. Now that it became 12% base, a 150% status chance from mods now only provides 30% status chance per pellet. 70% of the pellets no longer procc. Since strun wraith used to be that 1 shotgun that reliably proccs a bunch of status and lacked crit/sustainable damage, strun wraith is no longer a viable weapon in my opinion
340% as in, 4*60/60 mods (added to the base of 100%). It's a core baseline that covers hitting 100% previously on everything above a 29.4% base status chance. Yes, the Strun Wraith needed only 250% but that's arguing specific build semantics instead of taking an overall view.
The fact is, proccing every pellet through cheating the proportion maths broke the sensible scale of procs per second. They did too much with, and too little without. Now, they're normalised, and pretty much on par with what a rifle's equivalent would be.
As I've shown, the penalty correlation for the outcome of this change was based on the previous status chance, so by natural extension of that, yes, the Strun Wraith will have gotten the shorter end of the buff stick in general (other than as a 100% shotgun, which all got reduced output as a result of fixing the maths).
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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:
I don’t think the conversion of the status stat readout is the problem. The problem is status on anything that functions like a shotgun is pretty much useless for status.
100% shotgun maths was broken, and those weapons are now performing where they always should have been. Anything sub-100%, however, got a significant 240% or higher improvement, which should have applied to Artemis Bow but they forgot not to arbitrarily penalise Ivara as usual.
As for the thread, let's be honest. Ivara as a whole has lots of issues we need acted upon - as we already discussed in no small amount of detail - but for some reason DE refuses to give her quality of life, while those who only look at the superficial level of potential give the frame enormous amounts of credit without docking points for the myriad of little problems that impede her at every turn.
2 hours ago, CloudATL said:By "make it not decrease the overall damage of each shot" you mean that the main shot would have 7 times its current damage ? Like all arrows are tied into one and adding their respective damage ? Wouldn't the damage be over the top though ?
This, as an Exilus slot augment, without the explosion headshot, would make a better augment than Concentrated Arrow was previously. Just like 'being able to move around' is a benefit for Mesa and Nyx, having a pure single-target arrow would change up the viability of other aspects of Ivara's kit and let Artemis be more useful for precise work.
It'd work immensely well with Navigator (which needs plenty of help itself too). It'd be easier to use at range. You could make a solid Eidolon hunter with those two factors alone, instead of having to use goofy Castana tricks, for example - and because it'd live in the Exilus slot, it wouldn't really intrude on using Empowered Quiver crit-wires to further enhance the output.
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On 2020-04-05 at 11:16 PM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:
Okay is it going to be difficult for my kavat or what ever to keep up with me? Sure.
Companions can't even keep up with anything moving more actively than an Assimilate Nyx/Mesa's Waltz already.
Truth of the matter is that it just leans on Archwing code directly, and because we had the hilarity of Flying Space Cats in regular Archwing way back when, Titania got the forced despawn as well.
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1 hour ago, Oreades said:
Endless missions have never been popular outside of a subset of the player base who enjoy diaper runs. The only thing that was artificially propping them up back with keys was people wanting to min/max their keys and "beat the system".
If you honestly think that if they would had stuck to the key system that they wouldn't have eventually updated it to require a key each wave/cycle, you're staggeringly naive.
Requiring an input on each cycle was just how things where going to play out.
Nice strawman.
Endless Fissures having a rewarding bonus rotation - gaining traces-per-cycle due to Resource boost, gaining extra and pre-refined relics on top of standard rotation rewards - was not being equated to anything about the Void Key endless missions. Again, you're substituting in that 'one key, many reward cycles' thing I never even mentioned as if it were my argument.
It was a way to solve a problem of the Relic system, in the Relic system. If the 'fissure waves' counted up without the arbitrary limitation of throwing out a relic, it would have done well to assuage the issues - a way to increase net relic gains on deep runs while supplementing Traces to minimise the extra between-relic grind of those as the second RNG layer. But since there's no 100% relic drop table in any endless rotations A, B, and C all together, you will not gain new relic stock while advancing the fissure bonuses, so it no longer achieves its purpose.
An Endless Fissure was never about the used relic's drop. Of course you only get one of those if you put a relic in.
1 hour ago, Oreades said:Citation needed.
Cause if we're going based on observation, I ran my two radiant Titania Prime System relics with two friends and a rando, Did/do I care what my friends bring? Nope Did I care what that rando brought? Nope. Those didn't pan out but after about 5 sabotaged Spy missions, guess what rolled into the end of mission rewards. The Titania Prime systems, brought into the mission by a rando who didn't care who they ran the relic with.
Tho it would be interesting if DE ever posted those stats in a way that could be interpreted into some useful insight.
Cause my guess is that by the end of that Prime cycle past the initial spike in tryhards going for Radshares, is that totality of that data would show that by and large people ultimately don't give a hecc aboutr finding specific groups for their relics. Then extend past that active prime period into the vaulting cycle and guess what? Unlike keys you're going to still see people popping those vaulted relics.
You're conflating 'throw it to the winds' matchmaking (and your personal anecdote vs. the sum total of Recruiting Chat) with what I stated, which is advertising open hosting of a specific, new/desirable relic - a thing which was natural with Keys as there was nothing to miss out on. Sure not everyone open hosted, some still sought keyshares, but by and large there was a guarantee that with a little attention and a quick whisper you could get into the fresh-drop locations.
There is nobody saying to the Recruiting chat masses, "I have a radiant Axi T5 relic and you are welcome to partake of its newly arrived bounty, I ask no specific relic or refinement in return". The best you can find is 'random radshares' or 'random relics' where the host will almost certainly not be fronting that new hotness - they'd be hosting a specific relic share to squeeze the advantage out of the system.
Remember, the lowest chance of Void Key rares is the same chance of a single intact Relic. In order to have any benefit over that key you hate so much, it is mandatory to refine and/or share that certain relic. Maybe on an edge-case you can find someone willing to make the exception for you bringing an out-of-date relic with the same rare entry along with the rest of the squad's 'fresh' ones.
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1 hour ago, Oreades said:Spoiler
Yes it's a symptom and the cause is being able to see the relics people brought when joining random groups.
Too bad you can't ascribe the same malice to incidental disconnects or house fires isn't it
Oh go on~
Not sure if you missed the whole part where I'm passively letting it accumulate over months but continue.....
Ok.... lemme know if I'm following this correctly, Keys where good because you could sit on your key hoard and not need to grind anything, simply waiting for DE to cycle the rewards.... but Relics are bad because you can play the game passively over periods of time to give yourself an injection of relics? which more or less bypasses the grind?
Duh, because with keys you only ever had to have the ONE thing and then you literally had all the things.... there was at that point no reason to bother playing the game until the new drop tables where released. See the difference between "I have been passively playing the game for months" and "I just have this stockpile of universal keys"?
.... yes the intended engagement path.... clearly that was HUGE success because we still have a key based syste..... oh wait. Almost like the indended engagement path for keys was determined to miss the mark and a better engagement path was implemented in it's place.... ya know one that actually occasionally encourages.... engagement....
.... refresh my memory do you consider that a good thing or a bad thing? Cause ya seem to be a tad on the fluid side when it comes to the subject of "bypassing/pre grind".
Nor would you be compelled to spend your syndicate points if the new relics didn't have anything you cared about (I'm looking at you WuKong)
*sigh*
Yeah relic packs don't completely bypass the need to interact with the game on a more regular basis..... the abject horror.....
There's so much wrong here I can scarcely start on it. Maybe it's best that I don't.
Even endless fissures were killed on arrival by only progressing the reward tiers if you throw away relics each time - it would've been a path to streamline the process, freely grinding both relics and refinement together, but that doesn't work if it costs you more relics than you stand to gain.
I'll die on the hill of void keys being better than the relic system we got in exchange (assuming intended acquisition path, and assuming they keep neutering their own solutions to issues like they did with Endless Fissures and now Bounties being stagnant). It was far more communal, excepting issues in controlling keyshares, which could have been supported without a total systemic change. Nobody (within statistical significance) is hosting new relics openly without asking that others bring the same.
It seems likely you'll die on the opposite hill, though. Whether that's because you're bypassing acquisition issues, or have anti-nostalgia for the void key days, or you just can't fathom the bigger picture so you blame the symptoms of a broken system rather than its cause.
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5 hours ago, TranceX69 said:
DE how the do you expect us to farm scarlet credits for arcanes
•While picking up the oplink satellite in murex missions it can just suddenly disappear causing the mission to end.
I've farmed them out just fine. Now, since I'm not speculatively profiteering on arcanes that might not be worth the effort to sell post event, I'm instead chugging along on my way to having enough stance forma BPs to theoretically slap one on every melee in the game if I went to the trouble of building them, just because I can.
And up until the past couple days I was even being overcautious and only clearing one flotilla per wave, in case it canceled out all prior rewards and/or DE decided that clearing multiple flotillas per wave was 'an exploit', which wouldn't surprise anyone at this point. Still got more than enough.
The satellite doesn't just 'disappear'. It gets obliterated by crewships if you're unlucky/poorly positioned. If you're in a squad, you can get someone to fly out before you pick it up and slap some Amesha protective drones onto it while it's still invulnerable.
Now, not being generated a drop-off point (or being given a drop point but no Murex to enter with it), that's a problem that exists.
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My best explanation I already gave in the megathread (now a month ago already, and we're still utterly ignored, wow).
It goes a little something like this:
On 2020-03-07 at 12:15 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:It was never a simple change to make, one way or another the relative balance of several other things would be thrown off by such a drastic alteration.
Abstracted percentage explanation for iterating this change as regards balance of Self Damage AOE to Non-Damage AOE (radial) to Non-AOE (e.g. Rifle):
> SDMG (100% risk, 150% reward) : NDMG (0% risk, 120% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
Remove SDMG risks
> SDMG (10% risk, 150% reward) : NDMG (0% risk, 120% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
SDMG overwhelms NDMG and NAOE, remove SDMG rewards
> SDMG (10% risk, 120% reward) : NDMG (0% risk, 120% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
"Risk" factor of SDMG fails to justify worthwhile over NDMG, NDMG overwhelming SDMG and NAOE, so normalise SDMG/NDMG
> SDMG (10% risk, 110% reward) : NDMG (10% risk, 110% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
And this is generally where we are, with the two categories homogenised into an annoying yet also barely relevant risk for an unflattering benefit.
Not Pictured: Non-radial beam/chain AOEs still beating all three of those categories.
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3 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:
- Multiplying status by 3 (some arbitrary number DE decided) but dividing by pellets broke every high pellet count shotgun in game
Here are a few examples of broken shotguns:
- Exergis: literally didnt change anything because it had 3 pellets per shot. I ain't no Einstein but 3/3 = 1x status
- Tigris Prime is worse than Sancti Tigris, which has more crit than prime, and now more status too because Prime had been divided by a higher pellet count of 12 vs 10
- Strun Wraith... It had 1 thing going for it before the changes: status at 40%! 40% at 10 pellets means you expected 4 proccs per shot. Now it's 12%, or 1 procc per shot simply because it had a high pellet count. Math isn't hard either, 3/10 is about 1/3 or less than the original values
- Boar series, 3/8x status chance. Not a big deal since it was an automatic weapon, but in terms of performance, it was never a good gun to begin with. Now it's simply worse
- Artemis Bow. Although it's not a shotgun (or a gun at all) it also took the full hit of the status changes. 1x divided by 7 arrows. All the negatives of the changes, but none of the 3x buffs. It was in the same place as the redeemer and cernos prime (weapons that took a multishot nerf but none of the buffs). They got their fixes later on. Cernos having 3 pellets took no hit to its performance, redeemer having 10 pellets is just as dead as the strun series, whilst Artemis bow is still dead to this day. I dont expect 3/7x to fix the bow itself. But to be real with you guys, exalted weapons all suck thanks to having no real benefits over normal weapons, but keeps the energy drain and mod restrictions.
Oh god, not this again.
There is no nerf by pellet count because every weapon was applied an identical formula. It is an identical inter-weapon relationship by pellet count as they had previously which is counterbalanced between weapons by their various other statistics. The result: A statistically insignificant trendline of -0.42%. What was a direct negative correlation to the potency of the result, is the previous status chance, with a trendline of -131%.
- The Exergis reached over 100% before and continues to do so. Due to status over 100% not being useless, it now outputs about 22.4% more procs per second on a generic 4*60% mod setup than it did prior. It's the only shotgun that got this luxury out of those that hit the baseline 100% level, yes, but it also didn't excel at status before (1.6 procs per second, oh boy), where the higher-pellet shotguns over-performed (up to 22.5 procs per second on the Boar Prime, lawdy) due to breaking the maths.
- The Sancti Tigris was always supposed to be better net status over time than the Tigris Prime, except when the maths are broken. At the naked status chance it equated to 0.255 procs per second where the Tigris Prime equated to 0.249; not much, but ~2.6% better. The new baseline is 0.672 procs per second to the Prime's 0.6457, so its marginal benefit has improved... marginally. It just doesn't magically get worse if the status chance hits a magic threshold.
- At your basic 340% status chance level of modding, the Strun Wraith is outputting 40.8% of its previous status proc potential. Maths aren't hard, though. The worst offender is actually the Kuva Drakgoon, which is only hitting 30.6% of its previous proc output. In fact, the Strun Wraith kept the highest proportion of all the shotguns which became nerfed at the 340% baseline.
- The Boar Prime outstripped the most status hose-iest auto I could think of by a factor of two, once it hit magic threshold. It, along with the other 100% shotguns (bar Exergis), got reduced in order to normalise it as it should be. The regular Boar on the other hand, as with everything else in a build that didn't hit 100% chance previously, now enjoys far greater status potential than it had, assuming you weren't piling on so much extra status beyond the basic 340% that it, too, hit magic threshold despite its lower base chance.
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A broken clock is right twice a day, and this was one of yours.
Artemis Bow's status is in the gutter, but Ivara's not allowed to have nice things anyway. It's already a weak competitor to its closest standard weapon variant, compared to other exalteds (Regulators 625%, Artemis 268%) and now it's worse because of Split Flights not being permitted on Artemis yet fine on that closest standard, bringing the potency to a sad 120% once stacked. Why? Because of an augment which is functionally a nerf you pay for. Can't even avoid getting screwed over by it when you don't slot it, now!
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26 minutes ago, Oreades said:
Yes the problem of letting people see what other people have brought and tank everyone elses run. The same problem DE has encountered time and time again with various non Relic related events and that time and time again they have resolved by obfuscating the reward until final extraction.
As for getting less than the full potential out of something, that is true of everything. Same reason most people will dip out of an endless mission the second one person dips out. Yeah they could keep going but not only will it be that much harder (assuming the person leaving was carrying their weight in the first place) and because the affinity is going to take a hit.
No, the motivation is irrelevant. If 3 out of 4 matters to you, then it doesn't make any real difference except in pure personal opinion whether it's 'justified' in doing so - whether relic hunting, disconnects, house on fire - all of them put you in a 3/4 situation which you identify fundamentally as being a problem. Having the motivation to drop out as a relic hunting method is a symptom not the cause.
26 minutes ago, Oreades said:It certainly isn't a guarantee but it is 36 relics in ~3 seconds worth of clicking vs starting off with nothing and stressing on a drip feed of maybe 1 relic every 2-5 minutes. And it's only 36 because I can't be bothered keeping up with more than 2 of the 4 of my syndicates. That's just wearing one Sigil on all of my frames and gaining the rep passively over time.
//
If by bypassing you mean getting a leg up by passively playing the game and frontloading some potential relics, then I guess.
I dunno sounds a bit familiar.... almost like you're saying that they where good because you could frontload a bunch of keys and then sit on them hoping that DE rotated the void drops into something you actually wanted.
Where as if you have access to the relics you have access to the potential drops whenever. Yeah they might be useless to me in the immediacy because I have the MacGuffin but I've helped quite a few friends who wanted (insert Vaulted MacGuffin). Because hey I had relics for that, zero waiting on DE to maybe hopefully unvault the thing.
It may seem like I'm calling it both useless and bypassing, but the difference is just in how much you throw at it. I'm not doing Syndicate runs daily but I could and it would give me the medals to spam out an abundance of relics to a level that might more-or-less bypass the grind.
But because DE removed pre-grinding as a feature of Void Keys, that's clearly marking a problem - because Syndicate banking is still a way to pre-grind, it's bypassing what is designed of the relic system's intended engagement path - only being able to put effort towards new relics when they're added to drop tables.
Still, it's false equivalence to call that the same benefit as Void Keys, because firstly, it was part of the intended engagement path that keys would naturally cycle usefulness as the 'new stuff' targets, and secondly, because you're not pulling a slot machine when you cash your pre-farm - the drop tables IN the keys rotate, your existing keys REMAIN the keys they are. You don't spend your stock of waiting keys if a new Access cycle just didn't put anything shiny in them, but you do have to spend your stock of Syndicate medals every Access cycle to see if you can get free passes to new goodies.
The result - Syndicate Relic Packs are worse than pre-farmed keys (still RNG) but better than farming relics as intended (free of gated commencement).
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1 hour ago, Oreades said:
Generally what I do is blow the plethera of Syndicate rep I've had sitting there doing nothing for months on relic packs which usually gets me pretty darn close to all the relics I want. Then I use the Reactant that I've had sitting around (again) for months because I actually run relics from time to time for Ducats. If it comes down to it, yeah I'll grind some relics and for the rares I'll go for radshares.
It's almost like if you occasionally play the game over time and plan just a little, it's not stressful when new primes launch every 3(?) months or so.
Syndicate rep is just deferred RNG. I tried it once and decided it was still going to eat my supply before I had any good chance to get enough to compensate bad luck. But if the best option to relic farming is to circumvent it, then it doesn't matter if you do so by Syndicate packs (meant to be an ancillary dump, not the main source) or by looking for them in pub squads - there's clearly something too unreliable in the acquisition.
1 hour ago, Oreades said:My anecdote is dealing with a bunch of heccin lamers who where joining spy fissures, checking out everyone relics, deciding that no one had anything they wanted, finishing the first vault and thus locking the mission and then bailing.
And when it isn't dealing with that toxic noise it's a wall of "X has joined the game, X has left the game" which quite frequently results in the match falling apart and everyone leaving because well see that first point where the objective is now complete and they just screwed everyone because its now a split between 3 or fewer potential relics instead of 4.
Deliberately locking the mission is a scum move I will agree. In my desperate moments of resorting to this myself it's always been out the moment I land (and even that's when the matchmaking didn't give me the chance to cancel out before loading me through). So, the worst case there is it being completed at roughly the same time by sheer chance.
But if you see it as screwing people over by the 3 out of 4 relic split, you've observed the problem. In trying to make the chances and consolation prizes better, they've just made more things you feel necessary in order for a relic you run to be worthwhile.
I'm a solo player and I hate Volt's speed buff with a passion. Unlucky me, I have to run matchmade relics to get the bang for my buck, and wouldn't you know it, 98% of missions have at least one Volt spamming his control-altering effect on me, so I spend the mission backpedalling every 5 seconds or I get non-consensually intimated with the level geometry.
1 hour ago, Oreades said:Not only where they trash, they where also pure RNG soooo..... not to mention the only redeeming quality and the only reason people lament them was because you could spend one key and then diaper run in an endless mission for hours, giving the sensation of "beating the system" even if you still came out holding nothing....
Not really. I didn't even mention that aspect myself, now did I? The better factors were 'no-deficit hosting' (which meant your bad luck could be ameliorated by just joining those who had better luck) and 'eventually useful' because the loot tables rotated through keys, so any you farmed weren't doomed as unwanted junk forever.
And as it happens, if you take the bare minimum of 20 minute survival rotations, dump it at the 2% worst-case chance of those days, you know how much time it takes to surpass a modern radshare's 34.39% odds? Seven hours. 21 cycles - but 21 chances to get luckier, to be done right then and there, not chances to ACCESS a chance as it is with relics.
Relics need to be reliable to support the fact you need new ones every time. When they ARE placed into bounty rotations, the system actually works well! You can spot that what you need is available, go bounty up a handful and probably have your part by the end of the bounty cycle. But DE have left that positive system absolutely festering and stagnant by making it pure unvaults.
Forma Paths.
in General Discussion
Posted
*laughs in memory of the Jigsaw Puzzle Patch, when every single void key endless rotation spat out Forma BPs*
I'm still working from a healthy buffer of Forma from back then. Granted, I don't pile 6+ polarities onto every item because I prefer flexibility, but even so.