TheLexiConArtist
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Posts posted by TheLexiConArtist
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2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:
Which both the game and the wiki had written out as well as all 3 main build calculators that exist on the net.
No, no im not, values would be circa 8-15% higher depending on gun if i did (and the tigris In fact in the first few posts on it i even added a bit of human error factor (such as recoil+spread for Prisma Grak even if it has little effect on sub 20m ranges). Overestimating human keydown/keyup time or assuming a person is playing heavily suboptimally however isnt relevant for comparisons. AND the whole point isnt relevant to the fact that DE nerfed shotguns by pellet count for no practical reason instead of doing the math as they said they would OR at least by using a functional approx of giving them 60~66% of their old per shot probability as the pellet chance (which for most guns would have been close enough).
Clerical error, or I read an actually wrong value. Insignificant detail overall.
If we go by the numbers of fire rate, the Tigris has 1/2.8 sustainable fire rate. I'm going to do your job and work back from your number now, so let's see what the result is.
30% status probability in old-form is 4.4% per pellet. So, 0.39 / 8 = 0.04875 sustainable procs per second. 0.04875pps / 0.044sc = ~1.108 sustained shots per second. Divided by the reload time nakedly, 1.108/1.8 = 1.9944 burst shots. Near enough 2.
It breaks the equation a little since we're working backwards, maybe there's some abstract fractional expression of theoretical-firerate and theoretical-mag that works out without causing a divide by zero error but my Algebrain isn't hitting it.
Most straightforward way of looking at it is that the reload quotient is now 'fire rate divided by reload' i.e. changing the equation to take functionally 0-time to shoot, as I thought.You've still provided no evidence and explanation as to how pellet count made any difference in the status update. Literally none. Meanwhile, the chart disagrees with your imagination that higher-pellet shotguns are somehow massively worsened compared to lower-pellet shotguns, since the trend line is negligible (w/anomlies) or actually positive (wo/anomlies).
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On 2020-03-12 at 1:46 PM, Andele3025 said:
So many numbers pulled out of nowhere (seriously, it doesnt take more than 2 seconds to open either the in game stat sheet or the wiki to see that the tigris prime having 1560 damage total across 8 pellets thus 195 base damage thus with 10% crit and 2x its 214.5 damage and that the 30% status probability converted to base 0.39 procs a sec with a 2 shot per 1.8 reload).
There we go. Found the actual mistake now you've shown your work as requested, though I could swear I read that 190 clean off the wiki last time. Never trust internet. Finally the broken clock hit one of those two times a day it's accurate.
Tigris does indeed have 195 base pellet damage making it 214.5 averaged through crit.
But that minor error changes nothing in the grander scheme of the argument - the damage ratio is still 466% as previously clarified, and all of my equations are still mathematically accurate.
Regarding procs per second - you're treating the weapon as if shooting time is literally nil which is not realistic. It's fast, but not 0. Although, again, even if it is a bit of an awkward case (god knows the Exergis is too) it doesn't have anything to do with your fairy-tale premise of pellets making any difference to the outcome.
It only changes the comparison between Tig and Boar - if anything, it makes the Tiggy even more superior at dealing damage procs over time as I previously stated it was, so again, if anything I was giving the theoretical benefit of the doubt.
For the sake of absolute clarity: Fire rate does affect the Tigris by time taken to commence automatic reloading. This can, however, be overridden with a manual reload, making the Tigris and its duplex trigger less numerically straightforward to discuss. But we can call our calculations the mathematical and theoretical minimums, its performance can arbitrarily improve from there based on player inputs.
You can test this yourself with Tainted Shell and Crit Deceleration, go into a mission and see how much longer post-trigger-pull you have to wait for it to reload naturally compared to a more sane build.
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Instead of Umbra Forma, DE need to rework the polarity system as a whole, so that we can more freely use regular Forma without locking our builds into inflexibility. It's a massively out of date system at this point, and doesn't reflect the cost burden of current build expectations. All the Primed mods, new expensive mods, Rivens and more. You should not need to restrictively 6+ forma an item just to fit one specific build at the cost of most others. The system was meant to allow more flexibility in choices - only really needing a few slots polarised - not to restrict.
Now, turning that equation around, if unlocked polarities could be mixed and matched optionally, then suddenly there's much less need for Umbra Forma in most cases, because you can have every other slot freely polarised to fit with enough investment. Only expensive AND triple-umbral loadouts would be impossible without the U-Forma.Those three umbrals take 48 of your 74-78, but that's still leaving 26-30 capacity to spend across 5(+exilus), for an average mod drain per slot of 9-10 (before polarity). Plenty of 9s/11s to fit, or drop in those 7(4)-costs to pay for a fatty 14(7) - 16(8).
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1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:
Would you please stop projecting.
Also, let me highlight your own statements:
(reality being that unmodded TP had base 214.5 damage per pellet accounting for crit with 0.39 procs per second while BP had 1.62 procs a sec)Keep posting your nice fantasies, but since cant accept the fact that pre patch status build Tigris Prime did 24~28 procs a sec per build and now hits 10~12 there is no helping you. Nothing will help since you keep denying reality that DE nerfed by pellet count for no reason when converting instead of doing what was said they would do and that the best option would have been to take both divided status multiplied by 3 per pellet AND 2/3rd of total status probability a shotgun had before and just applying the higher (rounding in both cases) as its new per pellet status chance.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Or you're just dense.
Give your equations or admit you're just spouting nonsense. If my equations are wrong, please do prove it so I can be accurate in future.
Averaging for crit:
DMG + (CRITCHANCE * (DMG * (CRITDMG - 1)))
Tigris Prime: 190 + (0.1 * (190 * (2 - 1))) = 190 + (0.1 * 190) = 209 average damage per pellet, base.
Boar Prime: 40 + (0.15 * (40 * (2 - 1))) = 40 + (0.15 * 40) = 46 average damage per pellet, base.Reload quotient:
(MAG / FIRERATE) / ((MAG / FIRERATE) + RELOADTIME)
Tigris Prime: (2 / 2) / ((2 / 2) + 1.8) = 1 / 2.8 = ~0.3571
Boar Prime: (20 / 4.67) / ((20 / 4.67) + 2.8 = ~4.282 / ~6.082 = ~0.605Procs per second:
(FIRERATE * RELOADQUOTIENT * PELLETS) * STATUSCHANCE_PP
Tigris Prime, Old Maths, Base status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 0.044 = ~0.25 pps
Tigris Prime, Old Maths, 100% status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 1 = ~5.71 pps
Boar Prime, Old Maths, Base status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 0.044 = ~0.994 pps
Boar Prime, Old Maths, 100% status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 1 = ~22.59 pps
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Tigris Prime, New Maths, Base status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 0.113 = ~0.645 pps
Tigris Prime, New Maths, Base * 340% status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 0.3842 = ~2.195 pps
Boar Prime, New Maths, Base status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 0.113 = ~2.55 pps
Boar Prime, New Maths, Base * 340% status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 0.3842 = ~8.68 ppsAnd the charts as posted previously prove that there was little or no negative pellet-count correlation in terms of the actual buffs received to listed status.
The actual difference is solely in whether a given shotgun could or could not achieve 100% from its base status chance. Pellets are irrelevant. The Exergis was simply sitting at a higher status chance than the 8-pellet shotguns before the patch, and received roughly an identical increase to the Tigris and Boar we're using as comparisons. The number of pellets has nothing to do with it.
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2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:
NO U!
Good to see today's children are keeping up the old internet traditions.
Here, let me include both and nicely highlight the columns directly transferred from post to spreadsheet for you:
Keep trying, space kiddo.
You're just making yourself look stupid.
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18 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:
Honestly I can't tell at this point. I don't know if we're arguing different points or what. All I've been trying to say is that shotguns didn't deserve to be arbitrarily nerfed based on their pellet count, because it would be like nerfing a single target weapon based on its firerate.
If you mean as a group compared to non-pellet weapons, then they did arguably deserve it as evidenced by the ability of the Boar using old-style status to double the equivalent status hose rifle net proc per second.
If you mean between themselves, however, then as you can see from my charting the Actual Buffs received (both net and per-pellet) there is no strong negative correlation between the increase received and their pellet count. The Corinth and Strun Wraith are clear and obvious outliers above and below curve respectively, which is why I showed the resulting trends both including and disincluding them.
7 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:Finally the first thing you spew that isnt a lie, that you are arguing something unsupported by evidence thus making S#&$ up/lying.
No you didnt. You asspulled numbers not related to the guns stats.
You're the only one who is drawing attention and its only to the fact that you're making S#&$ up, dont know what burst vs auto is and keep ignoring stats you could easily find on the WF wiki or calc out.
Neither, you asspulled numbers out of thin air.
You are so focused on arses, Sigmund Freud would have a field day with you.
You can see the charted numbers in the spreadsheet. They are precisely copied out from what was previously supplied.
I've sourced every real number I've given in evidence.
I've got ready-to-go equations to evaluate damage averages, reload quotients, burst and sustained DPS and more in that spreadsheet, making it easy to adapt and infer things like procs per second and status damage ratios.You've responded with "No, because I say so" or completely unqualified numbers.
You're the "asspuller" here, not me.
You're a joke.
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1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:
Feel free to keep lying and projecting, it wont do anything but pad the thread. Fact remains (which btw everyone can check GilgaMelchi nicely posted, so you asspulling fiction wont help) nerf was based by pellet count thus buffing/making S#&$ status shotguns barely less effective than once high status ones and leaving the Exergis uneffected.
"Muuuum! The statistics don't support my argument! 😞" - Andele, probably.
I mean, I literally posted the chart of the exact numbers provided that you told me to check. Isn't my fault you're trying to draw a target around your inaccurate presumption.
1 minute ago, Drago55577 said:Base damage per second isn't the only factor. The important stat is damage over time which is a function of base damage * firerate over time. Factor in reload for sustained.
Base Damage of any given bullet/pellet that procs, and proc rate over time (sustained). Which are the two values I gave as evidence. Yes?
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8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:
Again, nice projecting as that was the actual math of full stats 4x60/60 in the first line.
No, you spewed numbers that have nothing to do with reality.
You do understand that post base damage mod and multi, fire rate is the BIS for non-crit non-low mag guns, right?
You're arguing over the inconsequential differences, the parts that, mathematically, can be cancelled out to simplify the equation. We are talking about base stats. Not your arbitrarily builds. Everything has access to the same after-market multipliers - so we don't care about the damage gain of the 60/60 mods (it increases everything equally), we don't care about multishot (again equal within category, or 20% better comparing shotguns to rifle, this makes it the conservative comparison, i.e. giving shotguns the benefit of the doubt), we don't particularly care about other damage mods. BASELINE.
8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:Dear lord, im asking where the hell you asspulled the "Boar: 8.65 procs per second, 46 avg. base damage per pellet" "Tigris: 2.18 procs per second, 209 avg. base damage per pellet."/why you kept making S#&$ up.
Do you possess eyes, or did you lose them at some point in a freak face-rolling-on-keyboard accident? Using the 340% status chance of the four 60/60s - not counting the damage differences as the multiplier is equal and therefore irrelevant - that's the base weapon damage per pellet and the sustainable procs per second through consistent firing and reloading.
The Boar procs 8.65/s sustained, its base damage is 40 per pellet plus 6 averaged through crit. I'd give you that crit-averaging equation but you'd ignore it too.
The Tigris procs 2.18/s sustained, its base damage is 190 per pellet plus 19 averaged through crit.
Basic maths, but apparently not basic enough to penetrate your skull.
8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:No thats you because you keep conflating that base damage somehow has any effect on if a gun is a status or crit weapon or neither forcing me to respond to your worthless ramblings
A higher base damage gun does more damage per status proc than a lower base damage done. A Soma's slash procs do much less per tick than a Dread. Tigris damage procs start ~465% more potent because the pellets triggering them are ~465% more potent, therefore fewer procs will still afford equal or better damage for damage procs alone.
8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:Again, please learn what burst (or well, duplex) vs full auto is, the value of mag size and thus why a burst status weapon having its status procs reduced by over 50% matters more to it than to a full auto. Actually you dont need to i just posted above its a difference of over 50 to 85%+ higher status damage separate from base damage
Ironically, you're the one ignoring things. I have taken all reloading time into account for the entirety of this comparison study. So.. your asspull numbers don't matter, because I'm running the hard numbers, here. Proc chance doesn't affect either any differently once you're working with the consistent, sustainable values.
8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:No you very clearly didnt. You're ignoring the fact that no gun was actually buffed by 3x status in either version of the calculation in a fair way AND that the net trend (exergis excluded due to it having same pellet count as initial multi) is that the more pellets a shotgun had, the harder it got nerfed.
Sorry, you failed your bluff check. Buffed values in both cases correlate exactly as I said. Minor downward if including the anomalies of Corinth and Strun, moderate upward if removing those anomalies.
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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:
Rivens are cancer and never should be part of balance, also no, you're the one ignoring calculations. Pris Grak has 2.5 bullets a shot at 33 fire rate, on status instead of hybrid setup thats between 71 to 77% status chance, thats lowballed/accounting a few recoil misses average of 52 procs a sec. Even on a hybrid ammo conservative setup it hits a lowball 22 procs per second (likely 29+ going HM).
Okay, so you are just obscuring the comparison for the sake of it, then. Muddying up the details with specific flavourful builds when we're talking about baselines of status chance with/without typical 4*60%s.
1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:First state are you going about post or be nerf and more notably, what you consider even a status build if not max potential status output (aka is it base, both multishot, 3-4 status chance mods and reload or fire rate or their nightmare/hybrid statted mod for last slot depending on if burst or sustained or something else).
I gave the pre- and post-update baseline values - fire rate is a to-taste option, and multishot is, at most, further favouring shotguns - they can use VigiArm as well as Hell's, so that's irrelevant, while Hell's is strictly better than Split. Standard practice is to minimise the variables, you know. Otherwise we'd be arguing arbitrary build decisions, or worse, completely daft things like jamming fire rates on there at the expense of damage mods.
1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:Also how the hell did you get those numbers? Pre patch bare/no build tigris prime is at a flat 1 status a second (11.3% status, 16 pellets across 2 shots every 1.8 seconds if you perfectly time reloads).
I was clear as day on how those numbers are achieved. Fire rate, mag size, reload time. Reload Quotient = (MS/FR) / ((MS/FR)+RT); or in layman's terms, the proportional time spent shooting full until empty out of the time it takes to empty and reload. This is what we need to figure out how much of your burst is indefinitely sustained, whether that's damage output (FR * DamagePerShot) or bullets per second for potential procs (FR * Pellet * Multishot).
This equation does have one minor caveat which is for precisely one-shot weapons, where the fire rate essentially cannot function. Luckily this only applies to.. the Exergis and not a lot else. Vectis if we were extending comparisons beyond generic assault rifles, I suppose. Otherwise, the fire rate still accounts for the time between shots even if the mag size is lower than fire rate. 10 FR / 5 mag = 0.5 seconds to empty.
Using that handy list previously provided, that's 4.4% per pellet for the Tigris in the old calculation, which empties in a second and reloads in 1.8, giving a reload quotient of (2/2) / (2/2+1.8) = 0.357 approximately. Two shots per second, 8 pellets per shot (we're not interested in multishot). 2*8*0.357*0.044 = 0.25 appx. procs per second.
1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:The only guns that arent "intended" to do damage are tool ones like the zakti and pox. You still dont have a actual point supporting the idea that the tigris which by DEs own gun rebalance was set at 30% status chance pre this pellet-based nerf patch should somehow be worse than the boar at status despite them given the same stats for that matter. Or strun for that matter which should be better than both (post patch TP and BP are at 9 status applied a shot with Stun Wraith at 12 on average, thus per second status being at 12 for TP, 39~ for Boar and 28~ for Strun on status builds, vs prior where the 3 across a longer fight actually averaged out far closer, all being status shotties, vs now where they literally cant)
I'm not sure if you're just having issues reading the numbers but I've explained it quite clearly. Tigris = Fewer, Bigger Damage Procs. Boar = More, Lower Damage Procs. Again, the question of efficacy in reaching status caps in the new system remains, but purely for dealing damage in status procs alone, the Tigris is numerically superior to the Boar. This also wasn't affected at all by the update, as both shotties were altered in the exact same mathematical way, meaning neither damage ratio nor proc per second ratio between those shotguns has changed, only how they compare to other weapons has changed.
1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:Ok, do me a favour and look at the little box which says "actual buff", you see how guns with lower status chance and/or pellet count have a higher number in there*? Can you give me a guess then why multiplying the assumed per shot status chance and then dividing that number by pellet count raw instead of by the status chance pellet calculation would be a nerf based on pellet count (or well, buff the lower your status chance was)?
*you can ignore the exergis since due to the math DE used/mult of 3 and it having 3 pellets, it was a 1:1 conversion of prior status per shot to status per pellet instead of a nerf
I looked at both actual buff columns. In fact, I did one better and charted them myself.
If you keep the anomalies in there is a very minor downward trend (y = –0.0044x for status-per-pellet, y = –0.0025x for overall status chance).
If you take them out there's a more reasonable upward trend (y = 0.0069x per-pellet, y = 0.0177x overall chance).Those anomalous entries are the Corinth (above curve for 6 pellets) and the Strun Wraith (below curve for 10 pellets).
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2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:
Numbers out of thin air
Gonna need more concrete evidence to show that you're not just ignoring part of the calculations to suit your argument or including the randomness of Rivens. Your numbers seem nonsense by comparison, since the PrisGrak even at pure burst is only hitting ~30 pps with Split Chamber too.
Most likely you're misleading purposefully as a means to 'undermine' the 'argument'. Which is hilarious considering it's just straight number compare.
For the shotties themselves, let's cut out the approximations and get down to the hard numbers, to be certain:
Boar: 8.65 procs per second, 46 avg. base damage per pellet
Tigris: 2.18 procs per second, 209 avg. base damage per pellet.
Ratios: 3.968:1 procs per second, 1:4.543 damage.
I approximated a little generously in favour of the Tigris, then, once properly accounting for the minor crit the difference drops to 114.5% Tigris proc damage. Which is close to what you said, credit where it's due.
Only that's still a superiority in damage procs favouring the Tigris, it just casts a less flattering light on the debate of how the capped statuses accumulate on the 'damage based' status gun. Which it still is, as we've now proven again. Push through all the numbers and there's still a correlation of damage and proc rate. If you could somehow build both to deal purely a single damage status, then the Tig would be doing it better despite its lower chance.
Using @GilgaMelchi's list, I don't see anything penalising pellet count at all. In terms of the actual status chance improvements to each shotgun in the list, other than a couple anomalous points, there's a negligible difference or even a slight upward trend in the improvement value as compared pellets per shot.
So I assume you're judging the new by the broken mechanics of the old, which is a fools' errand.
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Any changes to status procs should be done mindful of the impact they would also have on players.
I can see, as stated earlier in the thread, that DE has not considered this. Electric procs, for example, are absolute murder in so many places where they were only an added inconvenience before. They're the new age of Mutalist Osprey toxin procs. One wrong application and you might just inevitably die if you're a softer frame.
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One of the biggest problems with Saryn's overbearing presence is that she literally thrives in squads more than in solo. We all know how temperamental solo spawns are, don't we? That's the difference between Saryn carrying spores through the entire mission without a single decay, and having it dip back down every few rooms.
Truth of the matter is, Saryn was and is more of a problem than Ember's WoF ever really was before she was gutted and reworked into something that barely works unless you go rolling around in energy pizzas - correct me if I'm wrong, but DE never actually made changes to the rework's self-defeating designs, did they?
Ember had target-per-second limitations. Her single damage type was worse, between shields' resistance and armour it fell off like a brick. The 'burn everything to the ground' frame functionally became a buff slave at higher levels, if at all.
Saryn scales up to anything, has solid damage types, and covers more range and targets. You don't need to be in Survival or ESO to tag one enemy, activate Toxic Lash and W+M1 through entire maps, spores spreading freely from everything you happen to hit.
Yes, ESO performance might not be the best metric for judging balance because it's an abortion of a 'game mode' in itself, but that doesn't mean Saryn's not busted. Hell, I bring her into my Sortie defenses when I'm short on time; even if the Spore counter does naturally reset per wave, all the procs, scaling damage and Miasma still soften up everything enough to make it easier than 90% of frames would.
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2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:
Dont act like Tigris Prime wasnt a status shotgun just because it isnt anymore as the nerf nerfed by pellet count not by status. Tigris isnt a "heavy damage based" shogtun, it WAS a status shotgun, the duplex (thus more focused on burst) vs auto (thus more focused on sustained) is not a valid point of argument for it.
It's a damage-oriented status weapon as opposed to a total procs status weapon. Both deal statuses, yes, but one puts its power budget into damage; in extrapolation, the Tigris is to the Boar what the Boltor is to the Grakata from my examples. Just further stretching the differences. Its reload quotient is still only 60% of the Boar's, so it's not just 'burst versus sustained'.
2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:18-24 procs a sec is what a status build on hybrid weapons tends to do. Everything from the Gal Vandal to Tiberon. Hell non status rifles tend to achieve around 14-16 procs a second with status builds or in case of actual dedicated status guns, circa 32-44 procs a second.
Those were all zero multishot calculations. You're comparing after multishot to before multishot (old Boar would do >50 with Hell's Chamber). Disregarding rivens, this means that our Prisma Grak would have been still limping behind at ~22 because Split Chamber is also a weaker multishot mod.
2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:Which just just a fancy way of saying "Status shotguns got nerfed to have that status chance of non-status weapons without getting buffed (in fire rate or crit) in turn.
No, it says that the upper end of status shotties is now moreso in line with status weapons instead of skyrocketing doubly above them. The Tigris sitting below the curve of procs per second, however, is just a lingering question as to whether its damage-status potential being 25% higher relative to Boar makes up for the fewer non-damage procs.
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52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:
Just to address that last note, because any proc over the cap is wasted, effectively lowering your status chance. I covered this before. Uncapped procs don't reach a point where they have no additional benefit.
Ergo, capped statuses do not care as much about quantity, as a finite number are required in any given timeframe. Uncapped (damage) care equally and indefinitely about both quantity and quality.
52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:Your conclusions, are again, disingenuous at best and out right wrong at worst. They are only correct under the assumption that we are not using damage procs. While correct, this assumption is wrong. Your conclusion is wrong because your assumption is wrong. Damage statuses are the entire performance of a status weapon.
Courtesy the previous point, no. Procs per second matter equally for damage as the damage of the proc itself. You can't circular logic your way out of that one. Conclusion 1 states that 100% shotties were capable of more and/or beefier procs over time than equivalent non-shotguns. Conclusion 2 states that the proc-per-second of the Boar Prime is equivalent, and exactly when considering damage status output, the Tigris' 500%D / 25%P ratio puts it at an even keel with the Boar. If anything, the conclusions suffer more from arguing the nature of non-damage statuses - but with the sweeping stackable changes between Old and New, this is a tougher nut to crack.
52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:Now, damage statuses damage is based on the damage of the pellet. Every pellet added together equals the total damage of the weapon. The amount of statuses is determined by the status chance, further affected by the damage types percentage of the total damage. Logically, the effectiveness of damage statuses is strictly a function of f(total damage x status chance x damage type percentage). Divided by average firerate to know it's effectiveness over time. Well, that's not entirely true. VERY low hit event over time guns like the Lenz are heavily affected. But this is a minority of guns. You could create a status efficiency formula with the damage per hit vs the damage over time, if you wanted.) Judging status weapons purely by their quantity of procs, in conclusion, is not accurate because it is a small portion of their strength.
Please don't strawman my arguments. I am not judging anything purely by quantity, I am giving equal weight to quantity as quality where you seem to want to ignore it entirely when damage is the subject.
I compared shotgun to shotgun because we already know they boast generally superior damage to rifles as a consequence of the 'risk/reward' involved in having spread and falloff.
Case in point: Boar Prime has 46 average damage/pellet (averaged w/crit), Prisma Grakata a mere 20.625 damage per bullet. While this doesn't reflect the sustained direct damage output, since we've interpreted the procs per second from the rest of those stats, only the per-bullet actually matters when purely discussing status output - if 10 bullets per second are proccing, then it doesn't matter if you're firing exactly 10 per second or 100, it's still 10 times the output of a singular bullet.
Using old status, therefore, the Boar was boasting approximately 4.5 times the potential status damage of the Grakata, with ~2.25x damage per pellet and ~2x procs per second.Back to shotgun versus shotgun, then, 10 procs per second of 10 damage per tick is equivalent to 1 proc per second of 100 damage per tick. Simplest maths. The Boar and Tigris have equal pellets per shot, the total damage ratio is 1:5 and calculated average procs per second are 4:1. Therefore, for damage statuses, the Tigris still boasts 125% superior output to the Boar as its 25% procs are each dealing 500% damage in comparison.
Again, the curve and distribution of total output may differ as a factor of approaching non-damaging status Stack Caps but once those caps are reached, further growth is strictly the product of those two ratios.52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:As for damage distribution, we don't have the kind of control. We are limited in both mods and mod slots, and unless a drastic change were to happen to modding, this isn't a solution. What we can do is fix the discrepancy between high and low volume of fire weapons and how effective they are with status. Equal builds are penalized further as the gap between damage per second and damage per hit increases.
You can still lean on additional elementals, and now pure-status mods to change both element selection and their weighting. Shotguns currently have a small potential benefit in this regard compared to Rifles. Why?
Primed Charged Shell exists, increasing distribution of pure Electric if you're into that. Blaze exists to increase distribution of Heat (potentially Gas if it wasn't awful now). Both are good mods. Rifles on the other hand have Primed Cryo Rounds, which is never a damage status source, and Wildfire which, while offering Heat weighting, is much less attractive than Blaze (secondary stat being mag size versus bonus flat damage). Secondaries are in the middle-ground by having a relevant Primed elemental (Heated Charge) but a useless-for-purpose non-status elemental dualstat mod (Ice Storm, cold and magazine)
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3 hours ago, Drago55577 said:
Soapbox? Everything I said is provably correct. Even your statistics support what I said about status weapons. A meaningless jab at a factually correct post.
The only opinionated portion is how I believe status should have been transferred.
Edit: I forgot to point out a crucial flaw in the data you provided. You didn't cover damage statuses which are not about procs per second, and their performance is strictly a function of status chance and damage per second. The quantity is irrelevant, as opposed to viral where quantity is relevant and damage per second is irrelevant.
Empirically, they are strictly worse because they can no longer compete with a rifle in terms of damage proc performance, even though very few can compete in output of non-damaging procs. This is the big blow, because a pure status weapon is all about damage procs, only crit weapons only care about procs who's performance is strictly a function of volume of fire over time times status chance.
Your data, while correct, is disingenuous. There is much more to this than what you included.
I explicitly stated that I'm not out to call anyone right or wrong by simply giving comparison studies, but if you must have some factual statements, here's mine:
There was a change.
A change needed to happen (consistency between status chances approaching versus achieving 100%)
It was a nerf to 100% status shotguns.Those are the facts, but we have one more thing; questions: Was the nerf necessary? Was it appropriate? To answer the questions is where we lean on the numerical comparisons.
So, since I didn't do it before, this time I'll draw some conclusions from what I took the time to spec out.
> 100% status shotguns previously ranged from comparable, only slightly lower procs per second than general status rifles on a heavy 'damage based' shotgun (Tigris P), to nearly double that of the archetypal status hose rifle (P. Grakata) on a lower damage, more 'status hose' shotgun (Boar P)
Conclusion 1) 100% status shotties had the potential to be way over the performance curve at their job. 22 procs per second at base pellet count is ludicrous. Ergo, being rebalanced downwards should probably have been expected.
Using the new and properly scaled status chances, this has changed to having a mediocre proc per second on the Tigris Prime (roughly one-third of the Tiberon's rate), and for the Boar, being on-par with the general status rifle curve - not quite Clem-tier status hosing, but still on the high-end of more general status rifles.
Conclusion 2) At the high end, this change has put them on-curve with non-shotgun status alternatives. The low end is questionable. Results inconclusive for proving whether the nerf was unilaterally appropriate. The ability for shotguns to dump more of whatever statuses they're going to land over time grouped up into each shot is, arguably, an incidental benefit under the new stacking system.
Now then. I did not miss out on any of your damage status 'problems', because like you said, damage statuses are based on quality - weapon damage - right? If the Tigris packs 5 times more base power but 4 times fewer procs, as I pointed out, then that evens out between it and the Boar in terms of dealing damage status procs. Fewer stacked up, but more punch in the ones that do.
Let's take the current busted Viral out of the equation and assume that the damage procs and capped functional procs are reasonably equal in performance. Using your own discussions here, I conclude that you would just look to have a more equal balance of Damage Status types to Capped Stack Status types on a Tigris Prime than you would on a Boar Prime. Fewer total procs means you're less likely to overcap, and the damage equalises out in the quality > quantity debate.
On that last note, can you explain how a capped stack of 10 procs is more concerned with quantity than a potentially unlimited stack of damage procs? Seems to me like they care equally about quantity until the stack's cap is reached, at which point damage statuses actually care more, the stack is just occasional upkeep.
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1 minute ago, TRPBWhite said:
I have no idea what do you mean by "didn't change for sub 100%". Multishot to me seems to apply to each of those numbers in equal fashion.
Obviously the values of that increase represents would be different - the raw number of how many bullets would cause a proc would change drastically. But that's another story to what it seems to me you were saying.
Am i missing something?
As I interpreted the old equation, adding additional pellets would further dilute the Actual Status Chance for anything below 100%. This would mean that the number of procs per second would effectively not increase, as the higher pellets per shot is cancelled out by also increasing the divisor of the status chance. Excepting, of course, when hitting 100%, as that doesn't get divided out among pellets.
I could be entirely wrong of course, but that's what having nonsensical maths does for you.
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5 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:
Unrelated: Are status effects on bosses in the process of getting fussed with? I noticed that Vay Hek was taking IPS in the sortie today but not elemental.
Anecdotally speaking, I was still getting all the usual elemental statuses I take to deal with that fight. Although, not sure whether it's the rework making my Corrosive procs so fallible, or just being an Element Enhancement sortie, but it was miserable compared to the usual time to dispatch a sortie Kek.
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12 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:
People are spreading misinformation despite others constantly correcting them on how shotguns work, how they used to work, and the power difference between them now.
Status shotguns, which were characterised entirely by the fact they can proc status on every single pellet vs having a 5-15%~ per pellet procs chance, are strictly worse at proccing. (Note I'm talking about their quantity of procs over time, I will cover power below.)
If you took a moment to get off your soapbox, you might be able to concede that how status shotguns worked was, in a word, broken. The equation required to make it tip the scales to perfect procs, without simply having an override at 100%, is the kind of code you'd see commented with suspicious "// WHY?!" and "// DO NOT CHANGE" entries. It was stupid and nonsense. It alone is the reason that the ever-popular Kohm was so powerful and yet never received any Riven disposition reduction, because that tipping point was so crucial.
It needed to go, for consistency's sake if nothing else.
Now let's move onto the pellet/status-per-second question. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here, but having comparative examples is helpful, isn't it?
I'll be using the Tigris Prime as a benchmark here because what we're mostly concerned with is the reload quotient. Using the fire rate, magazine capacity and reload speed we can find out how much burst is sustained. I have a handy dandy spreadsheet for calculating this (among other things) for DPS, so plugging in a fire rate 2, mag of 2 and reload of 1.8 gives us ~35.7%
Tigris Prime has a base multishot of 8. Using the fire rate, it pumps out 16 pellets per second. 35.7% of 16, rounded down, gives us a sustained fire of 5.7 bullets per second.
Previously, that meant a base of 5.7*0.044 = 0.25 procs per second. Once modded up with your standard 60/60s it hit 100% therefore 5.7 procs per second. Multishot linearly increased this modded value but didn't change for sub-100%.
Currently, this means a base of 5.7*0.113 = 0.644 procs per second. Using the old mod spread that hit 100% before, it increases to 5.7*0.383 = 2.18 procs per second. Multishot, this time, increases both in the exact same way.Now I'm going to pick a rifle arbitrarily from my arsenal that has status favoured. Tiberon Prime is nearby the Tigris and gives us the benchmark crit-versus-status between different modes, handily enough, so I'll use its auto setting for the sake of procs.
Fire rate 8.33, mag 42, reload 2.0 gives us a reload quotient of ~71.6%. Simple this time without pellets, we have 71.6% of 8.33 = 5.96 bullets per second. Nice and similar.
At a base of 32% status, this means it's pumping out 1.9 procs per second. Modded with 60/60s we now have to apply the current ability to surpass 100% status as 32%*3.4=108.8%; 5.96*1.088 = 6.485 procs per second.As a control I did the same with Boltor Prime and got Base 2.42 pps and modded 8.25 pps. Even the notorious status hose of the Prisma Grakata was limited by its lower base status chance, reaching 11.35 pps modded.
Now for something less reload-heavy, let's use the Boar Prime because its status/pellets match the Tigris.
Fire rate 4.67, mag 20, reload 2.8 gives reload quotient ~60.5%. 4.67 * 8 * 0.605 = 22.6 bullets per second. You might be able to see where this is going.
Old-style status meant base 22.6*0.044 = ~1 proc per second. Modded up to 100% status, of course, was 22.6 procs per second!
New-style status gives the base 22.6*0.113 = 2.55 procs per second. Modded up as before, we get 22.6*0.383 = 8.65 procs per second.So we can see that some status shotguns, though much reduced, might still be on-par with where they ought to be compared to status-leaning rifles. Consider also the small benefit afforded to Shotguns by having a 120% mutlishot mod versus 90% for rifles.
The question to ask with regards the Tigris Prime and any that follow its profile, then, is whether the damage base is carrying their weight, as the Tigris P does nearly 5 times the damage of the Boar P, while averaging ~4 times fewer pellets per second.
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14 hours ago, Zoh_Veldae said:
Ancient Healer's defensive aura that SHOULD redirect part of damage dealt to their allies doesn't do so, it just redirects status procs and general damage stagger, but the damage dealt is simply reduced and not split. The damage reduction is fine, but it should be redirected too, even if partially, to the Healer.
Not only does it not transfer damage (except DoT from status) over to the Healer protecting a unit, it actually heals the Ancient for every damage event on units within its radius. Which is stupid, and leads to stalemate situations in some cases when you can't actually target just the Ancient (if at all), and your per-hit damage isn't overwhelming enough to compensate all the up-ticks of healing you're causing incidentally.
I really want to call it a bug, because it's just the dumbest thing I can think of putting on a regular enemy in the most unit-spammy faction otherwise.
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1 hour ago, Endorphinz said:
I already mentioned that self-damage should be present, just make it a flat number, unaffected by mods, unique to each weapon without any fancy math needed. 100 damage to yourself for a misfired Ogris rocket, for instance. Maybe 30 for a Acceltra rocket. It doesn't need to be exceedingly dangerous but a sharp reminder that you need to respect these weapons still, which is still a step up from fearing the weapons as we did previously.
That's literally what the old Tonkor model was (at 50), and we know how that turned out. All these restricted, unscaling risks have a flaw somewhere in the interpretation. Percent health doesn't respect the logic of glass vs. tank. Flat unscaled does nothing. Capped flat returns it to a 'pick X to be exempt' model.
While the scales are different and could do with being addressed per formula in first post, the only logical risk interpretation is to keep it unbound so there's all the player options. Go for enough power, fatal risks. Choose to select or mod defensively and you get more leeway. If anything, it's just that, due to the differing scale models, that 'fatal risk' level came too early, making it a less nuanced decision and more of an obligation if you wanted it to do any notable damage at all - notwithstanding Cautious Shot.
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1 hour ago, IncuBB said:
Chroma-bots...
Chroma-bots everywhere...I hear the Wizard of Oz can get a brain for that straw-man you're constructing. Certainly isn't anything else, considering I already pointed out how I've played each individual Nyx more than both Chromas combined.
Besides, nobody was killing themselves with that self-damage unless they actively tried to, after all, it's pretty counter-intuitive to kill yourself in the process of buffing up.
But hey, appreciate the bump all the same.
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Let me crosspost over my effort to shed some light on the nerf process. Now, this is generalised abstraction, not absolutely representative values of course, and bear in mind I made it abundantly clear that there should be concerns about the possible return of Tonkor Meta.
On 2020-03-07 at 12:15 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:It was never a simple change to make, one way or another the relative balance of several other things would be thrown off by such a drastic alteration.
Abstracted percentage explanation for iterating this change as regards balance of Self Damage AOE to Non-Damage AOE (radial) to Non-AOE (e.g. Rifle):
> SDMG (100% risk, 150% reward) : NDMG (0% risk, 120% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
Remove SDMG risks
> SDMG (10% risk, 150% reward) : NDMG (0% risk, 120% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
SDMG overwhelms NDMG and NAOE, remove SDMG rewards
> SDMG (10% risk, 120% reward) : NDMG (0% risk, 120% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
"Risk" factor of SDMG fails to justify worthwhile over NDMG, NDMG overwhelming SDMG and NAOE, so normalise SDMG/NDMG
> SDMG (10% risk, 110% reward) : NDMG (10% risk, 110% reward) : NAOE (0% risk, 100% reward)
And this is generally where we are, with the two categories homogenised into an annoying yet also barely relevant risk for an unflattering benefit.
Not Pictured: Non-radial beam/chain AOEs still beating all three of those categories.
Mediocrity of self-damage weapons, actual level of overbearing attainable by non-damage AOEs (staticor etc) and such nuanced details aside, that's generally how we reached the current state.
Of course, as I fully expected and also warned in advance, players have simply taken that annoying non-risk, circumvented it, and are now.. still making an arguable Tonkor Meta in the same way as any problem cases prior.
Revenant ignores self-damage? Self-damage weapons had potential to be OP. Not the fault of self-damage or AOE in general.
Shake up the balance to a non-thrilling risk, Primed Sure Footed ignores it, the 'rebalanced' AOEs have the potential to be OP in spite of the reward reduction.Turns out the only people objectively losing are the people who use the systems as intended. The new AOE system sucks compared to the old for people who respected self-damage, having no danger-thrill, weak AOE and annoying staggers. The new system sucks in itself if you're actually allowing the stagger and falloff to function, making self- and previously non-self-damaging AOEs underwhelming.. and yes, even other weapons suck in comparison to the new system when circumventing the mechanics.
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Passive/Environmental-hazard Status Proc times and effects on players seem to have been increased significantly, and in some cases far too punitive for what they are.
A Magnetic proc (Grineer door barrier) seemingly lasts at least twice as long as before, which once again effectively guarantees that it will remove all your energy for merely putting a toe over the threshold, while also being a nuisance with its visual distortion for such an extended period. Please remember that Magnetic is still vastly more punishing to players than it is to enemies. Maybe it's time to remove that added facet now that shields are better so having them made vulnerable is more pertinent?
Electric procs are posing obscene extra threat compared to pre-Mainline. Whether it's a Shock Eximus' aura, an electrical hazard in the environment (Railjack is getting a lot more of them too) or even the displacement slam from a Powerfist, all of them are dealing tons of unexpected damage. Powerfist slams are not meant to be threats, and incidental hazard procs probably shouldn't be invalidating shield gates by burning right through and then ticking chunks out of health after the invulnerability grace period. The only comparable damage threat from the environment is getting several Heat procs from broken pipes in the Gas City.
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On 2020-03-07 at 3:41 AM, Grey_Fenn said:
A little feedback on new shield audio/visual effects:
The new 'shield is recharging' sound effect - I like this; it is noticeable, intuitive and not intrusive. Well done.
The new 'shields are down' visual effect - I mostly like this. I like the fact that it is noticeable all over the screen (instead of just a corner of the UI). It feels a bit more intrusive than it needs to be though - I do need to see what's going on and it definitely interferes with that (momentarily, but still it is distracting). I'd suggest an increase in the transparency of the effect so it's still very noticeable but doesn't block my screen so much.
The shield-break effects aren't new, from what I can tell (and remember), they just broke it a while back (Railjack pre-build) and left it completely absent until now.
13 hours ago, Scorn said:Would be nice to have an icon that indicates whether the shield gate is available.
i.e. It indicates whether you've let your shields fully recharge, at a glance. Did your shields fill to full before that chip of damage while you weren't looking? Will it gate the next heavy attack?12 hours ago, xChibix said:It would be nice to have an indicator when you will get the invulnerability when shields are broken, but the actual part of shield gate, the bleedover prevention, is present regardless of how many shields you have and whether they have fully charged or not.
There is an extra animation effect on the shield bar, same as Hildryn had on hers / gave to others through Haven, which shows your gate viability. It's somewhat subtle until you know what you're looking for.
Stop holding Umbral forma hostage, and do something with Nightwave
in General
Posted
Actually not so, it's a suggestion I've kicked around for years now. The basic premise is that you polarise the item, not the slots, giving you a 'bank' of available polarities that you can then use the polarity-rearranging menu we already have to mix and match. Let me go dredge up one of my old threads for you.
Unfortunately, Tinypic is defunct or just voided a bunch of older images or something, so my mockup isn't visible any more. I'm looking to see if I still have it somewhere, and if so, I'll re-host it for reference.
Essentially, by allowing the unlocked polarities to be independent of slots you achieve the following: