[Increasing hp to compensate of some armor lose would just make game more boring (aka bullet sponges).]

While I don't think it is fair to assume that the before and after EHP of enemies will be the same, I do agree that it would make enemies feel more like bullet sponges. As it stands, we have options as to how to kill enemies beyond dealing more bigger numbers faster. Having to strip armor through ability use, ignore armor through viral/slash, or go all in on status is a lot more interesting of a way to kill enemies than them just being giant pools of HP. 

Looking at armor as just EHP isn't at all representative of how the game actually works. We don't deal with armor as if it were EHP, we deal with armor as if it is a mechanic to be broken through. Feels rather fitting for "armor" to require breaking. I would have much preferred getting more options as to how we break armor instead of having the need to break it removed. 

[Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework]

30 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I think the objective is that armor had reached a point where the average armor was within the realms that was making fighting against it an all or nothing endeavor. It doesn't matter if you're removing 90% of the armor, if that 10% remaining still provides 90% damage reduction then the effort in removing that 90% of the other armor was meaningless.

once your in that 90%+ dr range things scale too fast. The objective is to put armor below that range so that its easier to manage all aspects of damage.

I don't see how removing 90% of an enemy's armor is meaningless when that approaches a 900% damage multiplier. DR doesn't matter, all that matters is TTK. And in terms of TTK, many of our tools are easily able to dispatch enemies even with 90% DR through raw damage.

And that said, I don't see armor as simply an EHP multiplier. What makes armor interesting is that the best way to kill an enemy with it is to break the armor, not just apply more damage. Taking a step back, Viral/Slash is really interesting. We take it for granted because it is ubiquitous, but I don't think it is a bad thing that we have such a unique way of killing enemies (debuffing health and applying a specific DoT). I also think full armor strip has had a far more positive impact on general gameplay than any other ability archetype, we are now encouraged to weave ability casts into our gunplay and potentially stack these types of debuffs with our other buffs. Or I can use Secondary Encumber and brute force my way through by (ab)using status priming.

 

Having armor values be stupidly high is what has allowed for emergent gameplay and loadouts. If we could simply shoot our way through armor many builds would be made irrelevant due to being overkill/too much effort. I understand wanting more things to be viable, but the flipside to that is that your decisions have less value. There needs to be good builds and bad builds for there to be impactful build-craft.

 

Edit: One more thing about how armor scaling affects all that. Because armor scales, it means the importance of you ensuring you have the correct tools to "break" armor more important as enemy levels rise. This means that the value of good builds becomes exponentially more important as enemy levels rise, at lower levels it is fine to just brute force your way through things but once you hit SP you now need to consider making an actual build beyond making more bigger number. I find this type of enemy scaling to be fascinating as it subverts the notion that increasing enemy EHP number is just an artificial increase in difficulty by making it take longer.

Edit2: I need to clarify that despite liking the options we have, I do think our options are too limited. Secondary Encumber is just for secondaries. Armor stripping abilities are rare (but becoming more common). And our options to get around armor with different status effects are certainly lacking. But these are the things I would like to see addressed, give us more build options by giving us more options, not by squishing the floor and ceiling together so everything becomes the same.

[Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework]

 I despise Damage Reduction mathematically. It is naturally unintuitive as its implications on gameplay don't directly correlate to the number. 95% DR isn't 5% better than 90% DR, it is 100% better. When playing the game you don't feel damage reduction, you feel a multiplier on time to kill. That enemy with 5% more DR didn't feel 5% harder, it felt 100% harder. If that DR went from 95% to 90% it wasn't 5% easier to kill, it took half the time to kill. To see Pablo simplify Armor's effect on gameplay into DR rather than TTK was troubling.

I won't disagree that Corrosive is in a bad state, but the reason for its ineffectiveness is far more nuanced than "it only decreased DR by X amount". This is because, mathematically, Corrosive is already better than Viral as a raw damage multiplier (with a bunch of asterisks). As the amount of armor an enemy has increases, removing a percentage of that armor results in an increasingly higher multiplier on damage. The following table converts Corrosive's armor reduction into an effective damage multiplier so you can compare it apples-to-apples with Viral.

Here you can see that at max stacks against that Heavy Gunner Pablo showed Corrosive is actually giving a higher bonus than Viral. If Corrosive's effective damage bonus doesn't "feel useful to players" then why does Viral's? The immediately apparent issue is the scaling, where Viral starts off giving double damage Corrosive only gives 35% bonus damage. Furthermore, Viral has an innate synergy with Slash that makes it capable of ignoring armor. These are the reasons Corrosive isn't as good as Viral, but it isn't simply because it isn't powerful enough, it is technically quite powerful. It is mostly due to bad tuning and outside variables.

A better way to visualize how armor reduction affects time to kill (the number that actually matters) is that a 10% reduction in armor is a 10% reduction in an enemy's EHP. This isn't exactly true, it only approaches an equal value, but as armor levels increase it gets closer and closer to being equal. This means Corrosive's 80% armor reduction at max stacks effectively reduces enemy EHP by 80% and approaches +400% damage ( 1/(1-0.8)-1 ). You can apply this math to any partial armor strip.

In my opinion, all Corrosive really needed to be competitive with Viral (without Green Shards) was for its armor reduction to be more front heavy and to increase the maximum strip to 85%. At every amount of procs Corrosive should be a better multiplier on damage than Viral, and because it doesn't get synergy with finisher damage it needs substantially more than a 75% higher damage multiplier as its cap (85% armor strip is a theoretical 566% multiplier).

I am sure Corrosive will be getting some tweaks, but I find it funny that nerfing armor values will actually result in a nerf to Corrosive (relative to Viral).

23 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Enemy Armor will cap out at a certain percentage to give Corrosive Armor-reducing stacks more of an active impact.

This is the opposite of how armor stripping currently works. The more armor an enemy has the more impactful stripping a percentage of that armor is. In the Devstream Pablo mentioned capping armor at 90% DR, which is equivalent to 2700 armor. This is what that results in...

That's a pretty bad nerf right there... now there is no reason to ever use Corrosive (unless you already have Viral). But it's okay, we can just rework the armor formula to be more complicated.

23 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

The Armor scaling curve will aim to be a bit more spread out, as opposed to being bottom-heavy. Partial strip from the top end will allow for more consistent damage gains, as opposed to needing to have a total Armor Strip.

As it stands, armor scaling is linear. Every 300 armor gives an additional "stack" of EHP. A 100 health enemy with 300 armor has 200 EHP. With 600 armor it is 300 EHP and so on. The problem here isn't the armor formula, it is the focus on Damage Reduction as the stat that players feel. WE DON'T FEEL DAMAGE REDUCTION. Percentage armor stripping is already mostly intuitive in how it functions, strip 50% armor and you (approach) striping away 50% of an enemy's "stacks" of health thereby doubling your damage. This is what you feel, this is what actually impacts the game. Sure, it is a bit bottom heavy in that the first stack doubles an enemy's TTK, but would you look at that...

23 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Have a minimum threshold of any Enemy Armor.
      a. No armor-accessing Enemy will have below a certain minimum, Armor shouldn’t feel unimpactful. 

... it's almost like this is something we can already acknowledge is important. If an enemy's base armor were only 5% more EHP then it would be entirely unimpactful. I do think the armor scaling formula could use some work for sure, how quickly and the extent that enemies gain armor is wonky, but the core math is already an elegant solution. Well, if the 300 were swapped for 100 (and all armor values were divided by 3) then it would be a bit more elegant in that every 100 armor would be 100% more health, but that's just a cosmetic QoL.

 

I also don't think the assertion that armor is bad because we have to strip it is actually that bad. For one, that's blatantly untrue (outside level cap which is not content that should be balanced around). We generally have three ways to get through armor. Stripping is one, but we also ignore (Viral+Slash) and brute force (Status Priming). Armor's effect on EHP is far more complex than just a multiplier on health. Our options to get around armor means that the 37x increase brought up in the Dev Workshop isn't actually 3700% longer time to kill. Half of Warframe is the arsenal, making use of the tools you have to counter the challenges in front of you. Having to mechanically get through armor rather than have it simplify be a EHP pool to be DPS'd through is something I've much enjoyed about the current meta, but I won't deny that within those three archetypes our options are still a bit limiting.

 

To be clear, I'm not against a cap on armor. What I'm worried about is the way the current system was explained as it doesn't feel like it properly aligns with how the current system actually works. Yes, players have been saying partial armor stripping was useless for years, but that has always been a bit of an ignorant take. 100% strip has always been much better than partial, but a 80% strip is also technically better than most of our damage amplification abilities. Capping armor at 90% DR on paper sounds nice but leads to a breakdown of a lot of other systems and has inconsistent ramifications, for better and for worse Warframe is a a complicated game.

[Petition to add LOS to Gauss, Saryn and Equinox]

If the base ranges of those abilities were 30m I'd agree.

[Does DE realize how strong of a defensive ability eclipse is about to be?]

The current Helminth Eclipse has its DR capped at 75%, we have no reason to expect that to change.

[Eclipse Update (Dev response)]

Worse =/= Bad

Also, are yall conveniently forgetting that you never actually got the full buff from Eclipse?

[Warframe surpassed CS:GO and became the Most Profitable F2P game on Steam, this is the time to talk about Dedicated Servers]

On 2024-02-12 at 6:05 PM, Hexerin said:

The mixture of mental gymnastics, gaslighting, and industry conditioning on display in the responses to this thread is truly a sight to behold.

It is indeed astounding how confidently people will stick their fingers in their ears.

[There is zero reason for Warframe to still be peer to peer in 2024]

Ah yes, because dedicated servers never have problems. Nope, not one.

Besides that, peer to peer has its advantages. With P2P we can indefinitely pause a solo game, play on even the most shaky internet connections, not worry about queue times or server spool ups, and sit in game doing nothing without having to be booted. It's a niche advantage, but being able to suspend Warframe on my Steam Deck and come back to it without having to go through login processes is glorious.

 

I feel like most of the issues with hosting could be alleviated with a proper rework to matchmaking. A system that judges who is actually a good host, not just the person who wins the ping test, and more in-depth options (only-host and never-host at minimum) would prevent us even getting to the point of the game needing to host migrate. Matchmaking effectively being a line where whoever is first gets the host may have the shortest time-to-mission, but I think even a 5 second queue for matchmaking where the best hosts are selected from a pool would help quite a bit.

And ffs give current gen consoles the same spawn rates as PC. I understand that a Xbone, PS4, or Switch doesn't have the processing power to run all of that AI and mission status stuff. But if my Steam Deck can handle proper spawn rates, a PS5 or Series Xbox surely can.

My main issue lately is wanting to enjoy this horde shooter and getting put on a Switch host with (what feels like) a quarter the spawns.

 

TL;DR: Dedicated servers aren't a money issue, Warframe is a better game for being P2P.

[You have altered the deal DE. I just pray you don't alter it any further.]

18 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

need to sacrifice the very variety they’re earning

I've dodged this thread for awhile because I know how vehemently some people disagree with the following, but here I go.

A decision without impact is meaningless. Creativity is a result of restriction, not complete freedom.

 

I just don't buy the idea that normal path has more "variety" than Steel Path. I can make far more of my arsenal feel meaningful in SP because the decisions I am making when building a loadout actually has meaning. The "difficulty" of most non-SP content is so low that it makes many, many build options irrelevant. Crowd control means nothing because a cool breeze will kill them faster, damage buffs don't do a thing because it is already dead. Damage debuffs are an extra step to kill the thing. Defensive builds have absolutely no reason to exist.

My go-to example for this is Vauban. Unless I am desperate for a meme and using Vector Pad as a mobility tool, I will never bring Vauban to normal path. His entire kit feels like crap, the only redeeming factor being Vortex as an AFK tool. On the other hand, in SP, you get a high-activity 'trap' spam. Strategically placing Bastilles to create choke points and strip armor, placing Flechette turrets in locations to maximize their ability to hold the choke, then using Photon Strike on large groups I encounter when running between the multiple chokes I am trying to hold. None of this is viable in normal path because enemies are just too weak. Utilizing the armor strip from Bastille is pointless and Photon Strike is less effective than a single gun shot. It is only in SP where his kit is able to function.

And if you want to get even more broad, the entire status/resistance systems in the game are also kinda meaningless outside SP. Maybe electric and gas as they have an AoE aspect? But even then everything will probably be dead long before those could actually do anything. Enemy design also matters significantly more in SP as enemies generally have a chance to do something instead of die 0.138 seconds after becoming targetable.

And I don't think you can call any assortment of mods a "build." A "build" implies purpose, that you are trying to customize a thing to do a thing. A random assortment of mods isn't a "build" that should be respected by the game, build-craft is a core aspect of Warframe and learning to create synergistic builds is just as much gameplay as shooting the gun. If you think that SP limits the variety you have earned, then you just haven't figured out how to actually make a build. Aeolak has recently been a thing I've been loving in SP. It's a basic gun, "bad" by the meta standards, but even without a frame build-around is able to keep up in mowing through hallways.

And speaking of mowing through hallways, SP is still a gosh-darn power fantasy. If SP feels bullet-spongy then you're doing it wrong. You've failed to play the other half of the game that exists in the arsenal. Those things that you've been earning, the things you say you need to "sacrifice". No... use them. Combine time. Make a fudging build ffs. You are farming these things to use them, to get an effect out of them, not just equip it for giggles and gain nothing of substance. I feel far more held to the "meta" in non SP as if I use anything besides the "boom-n-zoom" playstyle then I may as well afk. In SP I can do wacky builds and not have to go solo, I can do a supportive thing and feel like I'm contributing, I can use single-target weapons and still get reasonable relative damage in.

I don't just think that SP is good content on its own, nor do I think it is just a matter of preference, Steel Path is a superior level of content for the sandbox of the game. It is MORE balanced than non-SP.

 

There are a lot of discussions about how broken the core game is, that everything is OP and that it needs to be torn down. What is missing from these discussions is the state of the game. And no, not a portion that just fits to your narrative, but the actual state of SP. Where every Warframe has a unique build and playstyle. Where we have three significantly different build routes for weapon-killing (Viral/Slash, Status Priming, and armor-strip). Where nearly every weapon can kill stuff and the most powerful weapons are only rarely suffocating the less powerful. It isn't flawless, but there is so much good stuff going on. The meta for the game has never been more diverse and we've been getting more things to keep expanding it. Corrosive Green Shards are opening a whole new path for frame/weapon building.

The only place where I feel restricted in SP is in the defense department, if I'm not doing something with shield gating and the frame doesn't have 90% DR I do feel forced into an Adaptation. That kinda sucks, but it's only one mod slot and I've still found that sometimes armor gets me close enough (given other factors line up). Having to build defensively isn't what feels "restrictive," it is that my options in doing so don't feel all that diverse.

 

I hope DE doesn't just continue their trend of encouraging SP, I hope they double down on it as the official "late game" difficulty. I do think there is a lot of work needed in the on-boarding into SP, it is a massive bump in content "difficulty" with no guidance on how to grow your power into it, but as a target and balancing point it is the best "late game" we've ever had by a significant margin.

[Yareli needs some adjustments]

40 minutes ago, DeathByZer0 said:

I really like how floaty Merulina feels and it allows for some slick movement if you know what you're doing

That's my problem, it doesn't feel like this to me. I am expecting to slide around, always have some momentum, but any time I am trying to traverse geometry that isn't a hallway with no celling I'm getting "stalled." Hitting a wall at a 15 degree angle shouldn't kill momentum, bouncing backwards when I jump too high and hit the ceiling is backwards, going up stairs shouldn't occasionally have me stutter as I feel the momentum keep getting hit, etcetera. She should, as you say, be slick. Having to dismount because recasting Merulina is faster than reorienting Merulina is a red flag. 

It shouldn't take practice to get around these things. A little bit of "git gud" in a Warframe's design is appreciated, but not when that "git gud" is just to get around bad design. If I miss a doorway because I had to much momentum and hit a wall is fine, I should be slowed down in that I am not hurdling through that doorway, then after not succeeding I should be able to immediately get back to it. There is a difference between punishing mistakes and rewarding proficiency. 

 

40 minutes ago, DeathByZer0 said:

HOWEVER the issue is if you just allow riptide to suck in enemies constantly into one spot with no enemy cap, it becomes an AFK farming ability

If it wouldn't essentially be a worse version of, well, any of the other things you mention (for that purpose) I may agree. Riptide has the quirk of not being a "strong" suck, it is more of a light tug. Could Yareli camp with it? Sure, but you'd be better off with any of those other options. So if having it consistently pull would benefit her kit, I see no negative impacts it could have on the whole of the game. 

And on that note of benefiting her kit, a suck ability that groups enemies up an a very easy-to-shoot ball melds beautifully with Merulina. Being accurate with your weapons and seeking out stray enemies just ain't what a K-Drive is for. Riptide fills an important role in her kit as something to allow you to enjoy using Merulina. 

 

40 minutes ago, DeathByZer0 said:

I don't think just turning it into "Spore but Cold Status" would be the right call either, as just copy pasting another warframe's ability with a small change feels... meh? But at the same time it does feel kinda neat how you describe it, still if Yareli could spread snares like Saryn spreads spores, she'd lock down the entire map in seconds, it'd be crazy. Is that a good thing? Maybe.

"Spread a effect when you hit a thing" isn't such a specialized mechanic that should be limited to only a single Warframe. You can take that mechanic and do a lot of stuff with it. We have Saryn doing DPS insanity, I think Yareli doing some CC shenaniganry wouldn't be all that bad. When you simplify things all the way down, you could probably say that Riptide being a "Snare spreader" and her 3 being a "weapon" to pop bubbles is basically a copy-paste of Miasma and Toxic Lash. But that's an incredibly reductive way to look at frame design that overlooks some pretty major differences.

For one... Yareli is on a K-Drive. It's obvious, but that completely reshapes how Yareli is played. Even if Saryn's entire kit was copied over to Yareli she would play fundamentally different because she is able to slip and slide around. Then Riptide being a cast-on-crosshair ability makes its situational usage quite different. The utility it provides is also substantially different being a suck ability. And while Toxic Lash and Aqua Blades would both be things you use to spread, the gameplay in which you do those things is fundamentally different. Where/when/why you cast each of your abilities would be wildiy different between Saryn and Yareli, why does an on-paper similarity matter at that point?

And just think, when Saryn puts a Spore on an enemy they will die. It is not a question of if, that enemy is marked for death. So to say that a CC ability, a thing that will explicitly not kill an enemy, has the potential to be more powerful is a bit of a stretch. I have Revenant on the wish-list for getting a proper "spreading" ability with his Thralls as well. Because, again, if Saryn can condemn an entire tile to death then why is it so crazy to have a frame CC a tile. FFS Nyx can hit 3 once and make every enemy on this tile and the next start shooting each other. You could simplify that theoretical Revenant kit down to "it is basically just CC Saryn"... but so what? Does it play different? If so, why does it matter if it is similar on paper?

[Yareli needs some adjustments]

I wouldn't call myself a fan of Yareli. I like some of the broad concepts she has going, of note I enjoy using K-Drives on the open worlds, but all of her abilities feel half-baked in some way. 

 

Merulina:

While the bullet jump would "fix" Merulina, it would be doing so by allowing you to ignore its issues rather than directly fixing them. The single thing that prevents me from playing Yareli the most is how momentum is handled while on Merulina. It reminds me of how momentum used to work in the coptering days, when you'd hit a wall rather than immediately loose all momentum the game had to reduce your momentum over a period of time.

The effect of that was when you hit a wall when going very fast you would be stuck on that wall until your momentum reached zero. This makes hitting any wall (or more often roof) feel like stalling. This gets even worse with how Merulina interacts with even slight glances against objects. A small railing or a tiny bump against a door frame means your momentum gets stalled. And don't get me started on how you bounce backwards.

Being on a hoverboard should feel more slippery than base movement, but due to this clunkyness with momentum it feels sticky.

If I could copy over an aspect of the core movement system to Merulina, it wouldn't be bullet jump, it would be aim-glide. Where I most often find fundamental issue with a K-Drive's capability in tile-sets is when a gap is too big or when I misjudge a distance, being able to glide in the air on your hover board would also look cool. 

 

Aqua Blades:

I just kind of hate this ability as it stands. I get the theory of having a AoE damage ability that allows you to ride past enemies and kill them, but that is something DE has generally said they don't want to do. DE can't make the current vision of this ability good because then it would be "OP." It needs to do something different. The augment is something, but I can't stand the "spam a useless thing until it gets good" design it has. 

When I saw the concept art of Yareli with two giant water blades I was given dreams of exalted Glaive. I don't think Yareli will ever go that far, but I think having the base version of Aqua Blades be an active combat ability rather than passive would do a lot more for her kit. I know this is a complete rework, but here's my hot take...

1. Make the damage numbers good at base (if Tempest Barrage can be good at base so can Aqua Blades)
2. Casting throws out your Aqua Blades as a giant boomerang. Every enemy hit increases the speed of rotation up to 10x. 
3. Recasting while Aqua Blades is out will cause it to stop moving (blades keep spinning, just the axis of rotation stops) for 5 seconds. After that is up it will return to you (cannot be done multiple times per throw). A second recast before the time is up will immediately recall. 
4. When Aqua Blades returns to you it persists for 8 seconds. If recast within those 8 seconds the speed stacks remain.
5. If you recast at the exact moment Aqua Blades returns, the travel speed is increased ("perfect cast").

For the augment, kill the carpal-tunnel. I know there's some enjoyment of the spam but... really? I know it gets effective when you build for it, but is spamming 3 the gameplay yall are wanting out of Yareli? Have the augment drastically increase the travel speed and make it so recasts cause it to explode. Sure, it's nothing like the old augment, but I'm not convinced the current augment is a good thing to have in the game. 

I know this is all unrealistic. But I can dream...

 

Riptide:

This needs to just be a "vortex" ability as you say, but it definitely doesn't need an enemy cap (Bastille and Tornadoes don't have a cap). It doesn't need the continuous suck range to be equal to the initial suck range (Bastille's Vortex is 10m for reference), but it needs to do some amount of suck over the duration. It plain looks wrong for enemies to walk underneath a giant floating bubble completely unaffected. 

 

Sea Snares:

I saved this for last because I think I'm stuck in a "I want it to be this thing, therefore I can't appreciate how good the current thing is" mindset with it. I want Sea Snares to be a cold version of Spore. It doesn't need the crazy damage scaling, and definitely a lower spread range due to the heavy CC/debuff nature of the ability, but having to spread bubbles just sounds like a way more interesting gameplay loop. A gameplay loop that would have easy synergies with Aqua Blades and Riptide acting as "bubble poppers" that spread the Snares. 
As it stands, it's fine, but I wish it were more.

 

Now tear into me Yareli stans

[Community: "Railjack sucks, man."]

8 hours ago, Hexerin said:

DE dropped the content due to community opinion, there's so much potential here...

I'm on the cope that it was a strategic decision to move to a more focused development model. The new guard at DE seemed to have taken a lesson from the old guard's reign, you can't do everything at once. Railjack is still a fundamentally flawed game mode in mission design in how it works as a vessel for co-op gameplay. Archwing is in a dire state, needing a ground up re-envisioning of it's role next to a Railjack. 

DE can't "just" add more Railjack content, they would have to divert a lot of resources into that. Resources that could be spent on something else. There are a lot of parts of the game that need love, and they've been getting to them piece by piece. As someone who adores the potential of Railjack, even I can't deny that there are more pressing matters to attend to. Eventually (I hope) they'll come around to it and put a full focus on it, and given the quality of recent content I'm happy to wait. 

 

It is almost like DE has listened to the years of feedback that they shouldn't throw 52 half-done things at the wall. 

[The Crackhead Pace of Modern Warframe]

I find it interesting when posts like this don't take a critical look at the content we've been getting in the context of the complaint.

Every update that has come out since The New War (everything in the Reb/Pablo era) has had a much higher emphasis on slowing down. Kahl missions, besides literally slowing us down, have sub objectives and challenges that ask you to look around. Angels of the Zariman had Voidplumes, the most direct way to get players to slow down. Voidplumes weren't just arbitrarily tacked on to traditional level design, the Zariman is incredibly dense with secrets and exploration. The new mission types have a common thread of being tightly connected to the game's movement system. Void Flood being a literal parkour challenge, Cascade having you run around to manage multiple points, and Armageddon has a periodic speed run tied in. 

Lua's Prey and Citrine's Last Wish were smaller updates, but even then the variant missions these introduced added more reason to smell the roses. Conjunction Survival is quite basic with the roaming buff zone, and is often ignored, but it does move the needle ever so slightly towards more level awareness. Mirror Defense fully embraces the game's movement system in a way that isn't just "go fast." It takes a lot from Void Flood, but keeps the importance of combat. To be the most successful in Tycho mirror defense you have to have a deep understanding of each tile's flow. Where Defense let you remain idle and content standing next to the objective, Mirror Defense asks you to explore your surroundings. 

And now we have Albrecht's Laboratories. I don't think anything here is novel as compared to the Zariman, it is essentially a doubling-down on everything the Zariman did, but that's not a bad thing. As a baseline we have Voca to be the reward for exploration, but that's not the extent as the new mission types all use the same tricks as the Zariman.

 

So basically... I find it odd to criticize the "crackhead pace" of the game without acknowledging the ways the page has been significantly altered in the last few content releases. Even if it isn't to the standard you personally want, you can't deny the shift. It would help in understanding your perspective to know how the changes haven't satisfied you.

 

I do also think the outlook some have of "the game is too fast" is a bit short-sighted. Rather than look for how to work with the strengths of the game, it is an outlook of working against aspects of the game. Just because a thing is causing perceived problems, that doesn't mean the thing inherently is problematic. Something something don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This is also a mindset I see when it comes to discussions on damage, but let's not go there. 

 

Edit: If I had to summarize DE's recent design philosophy with mission design, I'd say it is a great example of "why not both?" Rather than condemn the game as "too fast" or "too slow" DE has tried to give every new mission type something that asks us to do both. Leverage all the strengths of the game rather than pigeonholed the game into a single thing. 

[Melee Stance need Rework (Emphasize on Heavy Attacks) +Tennokai and Melee Arcanes.]

This all seems great. Obviously it is a bunch of animation work that needs to be done, but there has been a strong need since melee 2.9 for DE to go back and actually finish the animation work. Some stances still feel borked after the changes, and some stances are still missing the core set of combos.

I don't want to discount the effort that goes into making these animations, but for being such a core part of the game it is confusing why DE seems so hesitant to invest time into fully fleshing out the systems they've implemented. Tenno-kai feels like another case of a great core concept that will be let down by rushed/insufficient animation work. Still waiting for all stances to have...

Quote

In most cases, the following improvements can be applied to any given Stance Mod equipped to a weapon (not just individual weapon types!): 

• Forward Combo (Forward + Melee) - This allows you to attack without initially interrupting movement with the first 1-3 swings (depending on the weapon Stance). The last attack in the sequence will loop seamlessly into the first, so that you can keep a level of mobility while attacking.
• Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) - This move is usually a distance-closing opener, bringing you closer to the enemy and getting you within range to continue a harder-hitting string of attacks. The beginning or end of this combo can have a slam effect, allowing you to control the enemy, and during the mid-point of the combo, attacks will be large and sweeping, allowing multiple enemies to be hit.
• Neutral Combo (Melee button only) - Hard hitting, movement-free attacks to allow a player to destroy their target. The last attack can either have a knockdown effect, or throw them into the air and hold them there, if one set of strikes does not finish the job.
• Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) - First hit will likely be a longer thrust or throw of a weapon to increase range. Further attacks will be hard-hitting, and will often finish in a ragdoll effect or a Lifting Attack, as opposed to a knockdown or stagger. Lifting attacks are detailed in Section 7 of this workshop.
• Air Combo (Melee while Jumping) - Perform a combo in the air without sacrificing movement.
• Hover Air Combo (Back + Melee while Jumping) - Holds the player in place while the combo completes, and overrides the slam attack angle to keep the action going! 

 

 

As a general note on heavy attacks, an issue I've had with them for awhile is that just dealing more damage isn't actually that useful in most combat scenarios. Sure, it'll help for an elite enemy, but melee's bread and butter is clearing crowds and basic attacks already kill basic fodder fast enough. Tenno-kai's semi-random nature will lead to us (having the option to) using more heavy attacks on basic enemies, for us to engage with that system they need to actually be more effective than basic attacks. Engaging with Tenno-kai in anyplace outside SP will be entirely for novelty if the only thing it does is make damage number bigger. Combo count increasing the range of heavy attacks would make them a generally useful tool instead of a niche option.

[Opinion: Equinox should encourage, rather than discourage, form-swapping]

35 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

We do not think it is good, we think OPs argument for change is wrong.

I'm not sure what's wrong with the OP's argument (when reading it in good faith). When I say "core design" I'm not really referencing Equinox's current state in the game. I think we could all agree that she needs something. The core design I was referencing was basically dead-on with what the OP is criticizing.

As it stands, Equinox is designed as two independent frames that you can swap between mid-mission. Pacify/Provoke and Mend/Maim are both abilities that fundamentally don't synergize with her other form as neither ability has any impact on the battlefield after being disabled. The abilities being disabled when switching forms is only part of the issue being raised.

 

There are two ways I can think of to look at Equinox's "balance" motif.

• One is that of a split-personality. You can choose between two distinct playstyles and have the versatility of being able to switch when the mission calls for a change in tactic. The balance lies in being able to approach any situation in a choice of two options. (Current Equinox)
• The other is to maintain a constant balance. One form isn't enough, in order to reach true (effective) balance you need to balance the two distinct kits you have access to. (What the OP is proposing)

On paper, both of these options are viable ways of designing a frame with Equinox's core principle. I think the problem comes in with how Warframe is actually played. Even when theory-crafting complex content DE could make, I struggle to come up with anything that would ask a player to switch between a defensive and offensive form mid-mission. Unless the game pushes into very complex Raid missions, you just don't need a dedicated... well... anything. This means that using one form or another isn't a matter of balancing your output, but rather picking whatever you feel like using. That's not bad per-se, but it is quite close to just having two completely separate frames you pick between in the arsenal. I don't think Equinox going the split-personality route is objectively incorrect, or even "bad" design, but rather is a waste of a frame. A design ethos for Equinox that asks you to be constantly in a state of flux, never at full potential because you could be utilizing your other form's strengths, is something that has the grounds for a properly unique frame.

I'm not opposed to there being a build for Equinox that is dedicated to one form, but I would much rather see the builds that have you balance both forms be the "proper" way to play Equinox.

 

16 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What do you mean? One build influences both sides, and you swap accordingly

If you want to specialise down a path, feel free, but she’s not a one-trick pony

The problem is that she is a one-trick pony. Because of how her kit is designed you are encouraged to lean into a single trick. Recontextualizing "make her use both forms" as "a (single) path" doesn't feel all that fair. You can design around many paths that all use both forms. A core design of Equinox where she has 7 abilities to build around sounds a lot more diverse than one where she has (two sets of) 3. I give my opinions on "swap accordingly" above, I just don't think that is a design that works in Warframe.

 

To be fair, it may be too significant a rework to make Equinox a frame that constantly has to balance. In order to do that, at least one of Pacify/Provoke and Rest/Rage should probably be turned into single-cast abilities rather than toggles. That would allow the forms to actually interact with each other. But that is getting to a fairly significant rework, Equinox does still have a lot of room to improve within her current core design. A gameplay loop of bolstering defenses, nuking until those defenses wear off, than bolstering those defenses again is kind of there. I just feel as though that is a more static "path" that has less room for build/gameplay variety.

[Opinion: Equinox should encourage, rather than discourage, form-swapping]

I was going to come in here and call this a frigid take, but apparently people think Equinox's core design is good? Huh? What's the point of having a frame that can switch its kit mid-mission if all gameplay discourages that? 

I don't get the "keep your cake and eat it too" ideology some people are using as a defense of her current state. Yeah, you're supposed to make a build, but in Equinox's case making a build means forgoing her entire gimmick. Having to lean into one ability at the expense of another is solid design, ignoring abilities in favor of others is not. Especially when the frame's theme is balance.

If anything Equinox's kit should be designed in a way to discourage going all in on one form. There should be synergies between forms that you need to utilize to maximize her effectiveness. Otherwise what is the difference in having two distinct frames? This does get a bit difficult seeing as Equinox only has one active "gameplay" ability, as it stands the only active thing you can do is combine Rest/Rage, but there's at least something there. It was ages ago now, and it was comically cheesy, but the Sleep>Metamorphosis>Maim>Covert Lethality>nuke strategy was at least interesting.

 

I'm... the more I think the more it hurts. I can't fathom how people are spinning a conceptual change that increases the difficulty in maximizing the gameplay of a frame (having to balance 7 abilities with mutually exclusive castings is a lot) is somehow being perceived as asking for something to be made less "resistant." Guys... I get it, some people come in here and ask for the game to be removed from the game all the time, this ain't that. 

[We need to start pushing Pablo harder about stat sticks (respectfully, of course)]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Most people just want the best, and when there's one best option everyone only uses that one best thing.

Or they want to use an ability in gameplay as intended without locking themselves to a specific build on their traditional melee weapon. But sure, it is easier to dismiss a group when you generalize them.

But to your main point, while I agree the combo system in general on abilities is fundamentally broken, that doesn't mean that removing stat sticks in favor of an exalted-like modding system wouldn't be a net improvement. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good or something like that. The core concept of needing to spam an ability for it to be effective is questionable, Atlas's combo system just means you are forced into 1 spam at the expense of weaving abilities/weapons together. But if all I get is the ability to equip Atlas, then equip whatever melee weapon would be fun to use with Atlas, I'd be happy.

[Grendel's identity feels really weak with a cap of 5 enemies in his belly, could we please increase it? Double it?]

7 hours ago, owendawgx said:

What you're missing is that Grendel was not always just a weapons platform frame like he is now. Previously, you would want to cycle enemies in your stomach as frequently as possible because throwing up enemies with his 1 actually straight up killed them after the armor strip did its work. That playstyle is no longer possible at all because the cap is too low and the armor strip was removed for enemies in his belly.

I am very aware of "Fat Mesa with one extra step" Grendel, I never saw that play-style as very healthy for the game or all that thematic. The new Grendel fits far better into the theme of a hungry hungy Warframe than void-powered Bulimia.

I'm also getting tired of this new definition of "weapon platform" that has started to catch on. We have three weapon slots, it isn't a knock against a frame that those slots aren't made irrelevant by their abilities. Especially if that gameplay is "press 1, hold 1, press 1, hold 1, press 1..."

[I would throw money at a non-humanoid Warframe alarmingly quickly.]

47 minutes ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

Correct. This is about what we would like to see. IT is not our jobs to predict how capable DE may or may not be. Imagine what would happen if nobody had pushed for cross save and cross play? The usual suspects would claim that it's too much work and nothing would happen. Only through showing interest and giving feedback, no matter how silly, do creators know what to work toward to please their fanbase. I say this from a writer's perspective, but I am also irritated by the growing anti-critique culture that's hurting art as a whole. 

Oh... so I'm anti-critique because I try to understand as many aspects to a topic as possible... Because you are choosing to be ignorant to how games are made in this thread where you suggest how to make a game, I have no idea what you're actually asking for. Do you want unique run/walk cycles a la Wisp? Do you want unique weapon handling animations? Do you just want a beast exalted mode?

I don't know, and neither does DE. This isn't me being anti-critique it is me being pro-understanding. I have the apparently hot take of thinking that you should try to understand the ramifications of a thing when discussing it, an intelligent discussion isn't had on willful ignorance.

 

Also what is with this cross-save stuff? For one, it clearly was as difficult as people had assumed it to be given it isn't out yet. It has been awhile, but I don't remember conversations being "it's impossible." I do remember some threads where someone ignorantly said "this game should have cross save, it shouldn't be too hard" and were blasted with "bruh... it would be extremely hard." Furthermore, are you unironically saying that the benefit of "beast" animations are equivalent to cross-save? Cost-benefit balance is a thing...

I will also gladly mock anyone who suggests DE switch engines, which according to your logic is a perfectly reasonable request because we shouldn't consider the effort required to implement something.

[I would throw money at a non-humanoid Warframe alarmingly quickly.]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

It's the inverse. Jumping straight to "it's too much work" is intellectually lazy, and a lie told to the self. 

Ah, so the only logical conclusion is to completely ignore that aspect. Got it.

[I would throw money at a non-humanoid Warframe alarmingly quickly.]

On 2023-11-13 at 4:40 PM, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

I don't care, and neither should you.

I feel like this just isn't intellectually honest on a Forum of exchanging ideas.

[DEs problem with everything needing to be *new* and always forgetting the old]

I can't imagine how frustrating it is for DE to dedicate the majority of an update to going back and fixing things only for people to continue making posts and comments like this.

Is everything fixed? God no, of course not. Is the thing you personally think is the most important thing fixed? Probably not. But those are ridiculous expectations. The goal-post shuffling that is happening to maintain the "Oh DE, you're so predictable" narrative is either ignorant or disingenuous.

 

And this isn't to say you can't criticize the things that are still broken, but I believe that you need to acknowledge DE's efforts when giving that criticism. If you don't think their efforts are enough, that's cool too, but you gotta acknowledge the current amount of effort in order to quantity "enough."

[PSA: Operation Plague Star Bounty Standing Changes]

1 minute ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

We always tolerated this even because of the free forma. the same way we tolerated Scarlet Spear because of free arcanes. Both events suffer greatly from the "hurry up and wait" gameplay loops within them. DE should look at the quit farming and realize that the only reason players even do this event at all is for the rewards, not because the event is well-designed.

People will do whatever is the most efficient. People doing the most efficient thing isn't a sign of anything. Warframe players famously hate playing Warframe.

 

1 minute ago, Crackensan said:

It's not so much that, it's that the part 2 defense cannot be accelerated.  At all.  Zero player input.  The drone in P3? Nova, Loki, and a few others have the ability to make it move faster.
P1? Titania.

P4? Incarnon Guns.

P2?  Literally $&*^ all the player can do to interact and make it more interesting.
IT USED TO; (*note I could be mis-remembering this) but that was changed when the Phylaxis and Catalyst are now no longer required to be on the gear wheel and are just taken automatically from your inventory.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO it sucks.

Plague Star has always had an unmodifiable 3 minute defense. It is the same event as always with the exception of the drone being easier to speed up.

 

And I mean... fair enough to criticize the design of the event. But the "how dare you" attitude is just... ugh. The whole "of course they nerfed..." as if it is a sign of DE's incompetence, when this specific decision corrects an obvious oversight, it just isn't a good look. Like... guys/gals, this isn't how you give feedback. You don't advocate for a bad system of quitting out of a Bounty because you have problems with the design of the event. You will not convince someone to listen to you by misrepresenting their actions.

And I'm serious about the part of suggesting things that also take the same amount of time. Every suggestion to "just reduce it" or even "let us reduce it with gameplay" are missing the reality that Plague Star is already insanely rewarding. It doesn't need to be faster, it makes the complaints about the event look like a thinly veiled attempt to get more reward faster when that isn't addressed.

 

Basically, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm mostly just pointing out that using quit-farming and its removal as a sign of anything is silly.

[PSA: Operation Plague Star Bounty Standing Changes]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

Argh yes because you can do something everyone else shall suffer blah blah, i can comfortably do a steel path run in 8-10 solo with titania but i’m aware not everyone can hate that attitude.

Isn't the point of multiple difficulty levels to reward people who have better builds or invest more effort?

 

 

I am also finding the "how could you do this? DE you are so dumb!" hilarious as Plague Star has always been most efficient when running the full bounty. We get a moment where there is a clear oversight and suddenly DE is doing the "typical" thing and "nerfing fun" or something. Come on guys, this ain't the hill to die on, it is just making you look silly. Of course players prefer to do the more efficient thing, this isn't some grandiose philosophical take about the state of DE.

This is objectively an incredibly rewarding event for your time, it doesn't need to be faster. If you actually cared about gameplay and design you would suggest things to replace that time that take a similar amount of time, not give a "please give more rewards faster".

[How would the Warframe community feel about the wiki migrating away from Fandom?]

A year or so ago the Path of Exile wiki was moved off of Fandom and Grinding Gear Games took on hosting it. PoE is one of the few games that can beat Warframe in a "how poorly is this explained in game" competition. If they can do it, Warframe's community can.

It can happen, there's a chance.