Still On The Nova Op Topic

[TunaMayo]

It seems that Molecular Prime is heading the way of Rhino's Iron Skin.

 

As with Iron skin I am indifferent as to whether DE choose to change it or not, but it will be a sad day if it becomes completely useless.

 

If I had a preference I would ask that the slow be removed in favour of changing the Damage buff, it is a tad unnecessary.

[Ferriwind]

 I just remember how everyone was *@##$ing about Vauban when he first got released.

That's because Vauban was super buggy on release.

 

Enemies can do massive damage, you can do massive damage. It's ridiculous. The whole damage table of everything should be reworked honestly.

Yes please.

[BoompigXD]

It seems that Molecular Prime is heading the way of Rhino's Iron Skin.

 

As with Iron skin I am indifferent as to whether DE choose to change it or not, but it will be a sad day if it becomes completely useless.

 

If I had a preference I would ask that the slow be removed in favour of changing the Damage buff, it is a tad unnecessary.

Or make it a power is use ability

[rksk16it]

It seems that Molecular Prime is heading the way of Rhino's Iron Skin.

 

Rhino's Iron Skin and Saryn's Venom. Its just a matter of time till it gets its venom-like "performance tweak".

[blaes]

Let me throw in my 2 cents.

 

Being "Made for high level gameplay" is another way of saying "She is overpowered"

 

Drop can easily do thousands of damage, I can afk with doing nothing but spam the 1 button for the first 1-4 waves of Xini.

 

And Molecular Prime... let's just put it this way. If Warframe is a Coop game, why can Molecular Prime do Damage, CC, and Debuff?

 

Also, forget to mention. Give me proof she isn't OP.

 

Glass cannon? Try 50 armor and Loki speed, mixed with loki's stats.

 

You want a true glass cannon? 1.0 sprint speed with 10 armor, and Loki shields amount.

 

if you want people to take you seriously, you should really stop throwing that comparison everywhere, as it is completely and purposely misleading.

loki is nowhere near a glass canon. his stats may not be great, but ALL HIS ABILITIES ARE PROTECTION ORIENTED.

loki is just as great at surviving anything as nova is great at killing anything, but he is also better at killing stuff than nova is at protecting herself (due to the fact that weapons can compensate the lack of offensive ability, but hardly the lack of defensive ability).

 

Not true

 

Rhino provides a 9 sec stun. Great.

Miasma provides a 3 sec stagger, whoo hoo!

 

Nova causes enemies to take double damage, be slowed by 50% for 1 min *Power Duration affected*, and FRIGGEN BLOW UP

slowing enemies' movement won't stop them from firing at you.

 

I don't know. I'm starting to say just leave Nova as is. I'm starting to like boss farming with Nova.

 

 <--- Boss farming like a pro.

 

Warframe has become another BL2 on UVHM in late game. Enemies can do massive damage, you can do massive damage. It's ridiculous. The whole damage table of everything should be reworked honestly.

 

Doesn't matter to me whether or not anything gets fixed/changed/nerfed/buffed/exacerbated. I'm just going to play what DE gives me until I get bored with it.

[Hayden11121]

if you want people to take you seriously, you should really stop throwing that comparison everywhere, as it is completely and purposely misleading.

loki is nowhere near a glass canon. his stats may not be great, but ALL HIS ABILITIES ARE PROTECTION ORIENTED.

loki is just as great at surviving anything as nova is great at killing anything, but he is also better at killing stuff than nova is at protecting herself (due to the fact that weapons can compensate the lack of offensive ability, but hardly the lack of defensive ability).

 

slowing enemies' movement won't stop them from firing at you.

 

If I want people to take me seriously....

 

stop proving a valid point and asking for another valid point in return as a casual discussion?

 

It's not misleading, it's factual.

 

No need to posts links up, nor tell me how Nova works. I own her, I speak of experience.

[Phoenix86]

Btw 15m explosion radius for both Drop and MP is not small... all the opposite.

 

A tweak in ranges should be done... just compare them to other skills like Crush or Miasma... it's not fair

[blaes]

.

you can argue all you want, here are the facts : nova's stats make her frail, and her abilities only make up for that offensively.

even taking into account stats + skills, she stays frail. that's a fact.

 

saying she isn't frail by comparing her to a defensive frame all the while occulting everything making that frame defensive (ie the abilities) that nova don't have herself is at best blatant stupidity and at worst outright lie.

 

you can't say that sugar isn't sweet because it looks like salt.

[TunaMayo]

Btw 15m explosion radius for both Drop and MP is not small... all the opposite.

 

A tweak in ranges should be done... just compare them to other skills like Crush or Miasma... it's not fair

Whilst I am indifferent as to whether or not molecular prime gets tweaked, THIS gets on my nerves to no end.

Other frames are going to receive tweaks and changes.

There is more to a frame than just their ultimate. This should be taken into account when comparing frames.

You compare nova to rhino and saryn. These are frames that are meant to take a beating whilst dishing out damage.

Nova is simply, the best defence is a good offence, get in, kill em quick, get out.

Novas speciality IS killing stuff, ofcourse she is going to be good at it!

If we start using frame survivability as a comparison, nova is underpowered and rhino/saryn/loki/ash/frost make all other frames look bad.

It seems we have two camps when it comes to nova, the camp that play endless defence to high levels, and the camp that don't.

For high levels, nova is not OP, her usefulness stems from the damage buff and slow which outperforms rhino roar and is easier that sonar.

For low levels, the qqing stems from the fact that below level 90-100, enemy armour isn't that high and mobs are very easy to kill, meaning a wide ranged ultimate (mol prime) wipes the floor with trash. At the same time woth a flux rifle and a loki you can clear maps with ease.

A solution that could appease both parties would be to reduce the slow or remove it, whilst reducing the explosion range.

As a side note, a higher difficulty setting is required, so that ultimates don't just make everything a cakewalk and other side effects are more useful.

[taiiat]

Basically the only way to do anything in a defense mission without pulling your hair out by the follicles is with a Nova on your team, though. Nova's saved my bacon so many times as other frames, I can't wait to craft one for myself. But generally by the time I get a frame everyone thinks is OP, it gets nerfed.

 

Nova is low on health compared to other frames as a balance, much like how Loki is fairly squishy. Yes, ults kill tons of stuff, but that's what makes Nova so great on a Defense mission. I just remember how everyone was *@##$ing about Vauban when he first got released.

 

As for perceived challenge when playing Nova, go play high tier Nightmare mode stuff. Health vampire should really keep the heat on.

oh, please. i did a 50 wave Corpus Defense starting on ~lv50 with one Frost and two Nova's(including myself), and it was cake. we casually did 50 waves, used MPrime probably 4 times in the entire thing. cannonballs were plenty of CC. 

i admit, many people will just bandwagon and if someone says something is OP, they'll go along with it, without having used said thing.

but, i've used Nova a lot. i don't even equip MPrime, it's just too stupid. the Design Council voted for everything that sounded like it would be the most OP, because unfortunately, that's how a lot of people are.

 

Nova is lower.... on survivability than other frames, but so what? it's not like you're going to take damage most of the time anyways. 

people gave Vauban lots of S#&$, and guess what, he did get nerfed(and balanced). now he's acceptable.

 

again, please. Nightmare against lv 80 Grineer is not particularly difficult. it just takes longer. and health vampire makes it EASIER than normal.

 

and frankly, if Nova is 'nerfed' by the time you get one, it'll still have everything it has now, just without the excessiveness.

Vauban is still just as utility-centricly awesome as he was when he first was released. he's just reasonable now, not unreasonable. as boring as Vauban is for me, i certainly know those powers (other than the troll trap) are very handy. and so cheap on energy@.@

 

As a side note, a higher difficulty setting is required, so that ultimates don't just make everything a cakewalk and other side effects are more useful.

difficulty settings are a mistake. Nightmare mode is already borderline. issues don't get solved by making the ladder longer and saying "now everything fits!"

 

 

There is more to a frame than just their ultimate. This should be taken into account when comparing frames.

people will never do that. way, way too many people in the Warframe community only look at the last power of each frame because only an AoE blast is something they can use. yeah, i went there.

 

 

 

 

 

at the end of the day, the competent discussions about Nova have ALL boiled down to - reduce the explosion radius. this one change makes Nova a lot more balanced. i'd also like to see MPrime only hit like 75% of enemies in it's radius, but i'll take what i can get when we're talking about real balance. not this pigheaded "but lv1000 enemies still take time to kill" off topic legitimization. high level enemies took just as long to kill BEFORE Nova as AFTER her release. please stop being conceded and see the people trying to be Beta Testers are stating facts and trying to balance around them. 

 

also, Hayden always knows what he's talking about, yet people still try to argue @.@

just keep at it man, eventually the correct stuff has to happen... right? :/

it's like playing D&D and telling the guy with the rulebook in his hands he's wrong.

Edited September 3, 2013 by taiiat

[Sophronius]

Proving the point of basically everything needing reworked even more.

 

I'm tired of new content, I want bug fixes and mechanics done right.

[Mainabi]

Proving the point of basically everything needing reworked even more.

 

I'm tired of new content, I want bug fixes and mechanics done right.

the problem is poison deals magically x3 dmg to 2legged moas

[TunaMayo]

the Design Council voted for everything that sounded like it would be the most OP, because unfortunately, that's how a lot of people are.

 

 

I'd just like to say that Molecular Prime was never intended to have a debuff or slow effect. That was DE. The idea only involved chain reactions because it sounded cool, I actually wanted the reactions to be slightly delayed giving you a popcorn effect, rather than the pink mist we have now.

 

People hated it then because it was "just another useless damage ultimate".

 

People hate it now because "it does damage, debuff and cc, so OP".

 

DE aim to please, and get shot down by the community nonetheless. 

[Mainabi]

remove the explosion, the dmg multi should work with focus also the slow with focus problem solved, nobody will ever cry about ks, also the extra dmg should go to novas counter novas will still do most dmg on the scoreboard and these kids will be satisfied, and the other kids who care so much about kills won't get their kill counter taken away, for the other people who do more than beeing a *@##&#036; nova still support and works great with the team and they will use antimatter drop more often

[andboomgoestheydynamite]

If we start using frame survivability as a comparison, nova is underpowered and rhino/saryn/loki/ash/frost make all other frames look bad.

 

Loki actually requires a lot of skill to do well... You made a good point until you started saying that LOKI makes nova look bad. Nova is very easy to do well with while loki is extremely hard to master. I have had Loki for a while now and it took me a looong time to get used to him.

[Hayden11121]

Loki actually requires a lot of skill to do well... You made a good point until you started saying that LOKI makes nova look bad. Nova is very easy to do well with while loki is extremely hard to master. I have had Loki for a while now and it took me a looong time to get used to him.

That being said I never felt weak with Nova, at all.

 

In trouble? Press 4, everything's damage output slows significantly if it's still alive after the explosion.

[EazyMango]

Basically the only way to do anything in a defense mission without pulling your hair out by the follicles is with a Nova on your team, though. Nova's saved my bacon so many times as other frames, I can't wait to craft one for myself. But generally by the time I get a frame everyone thinks is OP, it gets nerfed.

 

Nova is low on health compared to other frames as a balance, much like how Loki is fairly squishy. Yes, ults kill tons of stuff, but that's what makes Nova so great on a Defense mission. I just remember how everyone was *@##$ing about Vauban when he first got released.

 

As for perceived challenge when playing Nova, go play high tier Nightmare mode stuff. Health vampire should really keep the heat on.

 

Nova ruins defensive missions period for all other players by camping the spawns, prime is to fast to trigger and has to far a reach.

 

Overpowered is not the word for it.

[andboomgoestheydynamite]

That being said I never felt weak with Nova, at all.

 

In trouble? Press 4, everything's damage output slows significantly if it's still alive after the explosion.

See this is the issue when someone can simply press a button to make all the troubles go away.

[Oishii]

*facepalm at the person who said m. prime isn't good against bosses because of their deep hp pools and that they perfectly understood that m prime does more than just explosions. The more hp something has the more double damage pays off.... if something takes 5 seconds to kill, you save 2.5 seconds essentially.... if something takes one hour to kill... you save 30 minutes.

[TunaMayo]

Loki actually requires a lot of skill to do well... You made a good point until you started saying that LOKI makes nova look bad. Nova is very easy to do well with while loki is extremely hard to master. I have had Loki for a while now and it took me a looong time to get used to him.

 

That isn't the point I was trying to make. What I was getting at is people are insisting  on comparing Nova to all other frames in terms of killing ability, which she is really good at because she is meant to be, making her seem overpowered in this sense.

 

I was saying that using the same logic, I can compare Nova to other frames in terms of ability to survive in sticky situations, where she would not come out on top. Loki and Ash can simply disappear and lose all enemy aggro, rhino and Saryn can take a few hits to the face without being felled, Nova can run away.

 

What I was trying to say is, Nova is built to get in quick, deal a lot of damage and kill the enemies before getting hurt. Trying to compare other frames ability to do so has Nova coming out ontop because that is her purpose. Yes Rhino Stomp isn't as good as Molecular Prime, but since when could Nova draw aggro, or be the sole revive specialist in a group, or not get shattered if a toxic breathes on you?

 

That being said I never felt weak with Nova, at all.

 

In trouble? Press 4, everything's damage output slows significantly if it's still alive after the explosion.

 

This is an issue with all good damage ultimates at present, if they didn't kill anything they would be useless so reducing their damage or buffing the enemies health is not the way to go.

 

My suggestion would be to have smarter AI and new enemy units to counter our tenno powers:

 

If they see enemies levitated by bastille, they don't all zerg into it.

Certain Heavy units have the ability to Remove debuffs in an area around them (looking at you mol prime)

Enemies punish you for standing still too long

Command units/squads immune to tenno powers (or to an extent)

Assassin-esque units that purposefully target the weaker frames

 

These are just examples i picked out of thin air so take them with a pinch of salt, but that's what I am getting at.

 

Ultimates need to be powerful, your "oh crap" button in most cases. But at the same time I do agree it isn't always fun when everything blows up pink all the time. It would be nice if we had new enemies/AI as it would let frames like loki/ash shine at taking out the prominent targets, whilst letting frames like Nova and Rhino kill the trash mobs.

 

Nova ruins defensive missions period for all other players by camping the spawns, prime is to fast to trigger and has to far a reach.

 

Overpowered is not the word for it.

 

On early wave missions, I heartily agree with you, but as do most damage ultimates. A rhino keeping topped up with energy or an ember with a rush mod can make the first 10-15 missions of a defence mission incredibly boring if they just press 4 a lot. Albeit Molecular Prime has a bit more staying power with its own damage buff.

 

And if you are playing with spawn campers, I feel for you but that isn't the frames fault, that's bad players.

 

At the same time in later wave missions, 30+, molecular prime becomes a key part of defence due to the CC and Debuff and is no longer "overpowered" so much as "really quite appreciated".

 

---------------------

 

TL:DR - What I am trying to achieve here, and feel free to disagree with me, is not dissuade you that Molecular Prime is powerful, it is. But I am trying to sway you guys from the idea that the issue lies with Molecular Prime, and more to do with the enemies it is used upon.

 

If we had enemies that could counter our powers, or pose greater threats to weaker frames, warframe would become more tactical and strong ultimates would perhaps seem to be less of an issue (lets face it, Necro isn't going to be like mag).

 

When you think about what we have now, which is essentially a bunch of trash mobs that you can breeze through with a feather duster; with some slightly larger, spongier mobs now and then, up until the point when armour scales to ridiculous heights and nothing works anymore, you can see why ultimates kill mid level enemies with such ease.

[rksk16it]

remove the explosion, the dmg multi should work with focus also the slow with focus problem solved, nobody will ever cry about ks, also the extra dmg should go to novas counter novas will still do most dmg on the scoreboard and these kids will be satisfied, and the other kids who care so much about kills won't get their kill counter taken away, for the other people who do more than beeing a $#*(@ nova still support and works great with the team and they will use antimatter drop more often

 

So you want the powerful aspects of MPrime (dmg multi and slow) to be "buffed" by getting them affected by focus, whereas remove its weak aspects (the explosion)...

 

We both know the explosions are just gimmick for low levels.

 

How much do you want Nova to be buffed for higher end content ? Maybe you'd like AM drop to be serrated blade also ?

[Pure]

Nova ruins defensive missions period for all other players by camping the spawns, prime is to fast to trigger and has to far a reach.

 

Overpowered is not the word for it.

 

So by killing faster than other frames it ruins defense missions?  What about other missions where novas get destroyed?

 

There's easy ways to solves this.

 

1. Don't join a mission with nova.

2. AFK and enjoy you don't have to do anything.

3. Do missions where they can't spawn camp and you can kill enemies very slow and be proud of yourself.

[shr0ud]

Nova is fine

 

just buff everything else

I mean SERIOUSLY I can't even use Banshee anymore

[Mainabi]

So you want the powerful aspects of MPrime (dmg multi and slow) to be "buffed" by getting them affected by focus, whereas remove its weak aspects (the explosion)...

We both know the explosions are just gimmick for low levels.

How much do you want Nova to be buffed for higher end content ? Maybe you'd like AM drop to be serrated blade also ?

yup and for your note yes I've got a nova to 30 and potatoed but I never play her, my main is saryn, mp is an interesting mechanic, it scales wonderful to higher lvls, but the explosion doesn't, the explosion afterwards and the chain reaction is pretty much annoying for most players who call for nerf, simply because the explosion cleans everything up and people have absolutely NOTHING to do (in my opinion i can't care less for that since nova = freeleech)

and then after that small rework almost all frames need a rebalance/rework, embers no 1 for example shouldn't cost any energy but it should be cd bases so 2-3sec cd same as volts 1, it's not that nova is sooo op, it's just antifun for many starters and mid ranged players. people usually want to play not to sit around and do nothing but the explosion part exactly takes away from them, let's take vauban, peolle complained a while about vauban but it was pretts fast that they've stopped unlike novas cry for nerf, with vauban people still have to shoot or melee things, for novas case welp drink tea sit back and wait.

oh I also like playing mag and I somehow started to like trinity alot

Edited September 4, 2013 by Seira-EGT-

[rksk16it]

yup and for your note yes I've got a nova to 30 and potatoed but I never play her, my main is saryn, mp is an interesting mechanic, it scales wonderful to higher lvls, but the explosion doesn't, the explosion afterwards and the chain reaction is pretty much annoying for most players who call for nerf, simply because the explosion cleans everything up and people have absolutely NOTHING to do (in my opinion i can't care less for that since nova = freeleech)

and then after that small rework almost all frames need a rebalance/rework, embers no 1 for example shouldn't cost any energy but it should be cd bases so 2-3sec cd same as volts 1, it's not that nova is sooo op, it's just antifun for many starters and mid ranged players. people usually want to play not to sit around and do nothing but the explosion part exactly takes away from them, let's take vauban, peolle complained a while about vauban but it was pretts fast that they've stopped unlike novas cry for nerf, with vauban people still have to shoot or melee things, for novas case welp drink tea sit back and wait.

oh I also like playing mag and I somehow started to like trinity alot

 

I get what you are saying, and I know you have Nova levelled to 30 and your main is Saryn, you already said that in other threads (i dont remember where).

 

But what you are asking is, fixing the problem of "forum whining" and "low level defense missions (low = lvl 150)" but on the other hand excacerbating the problem that Nova already has a niche spot in high level defense. Your clan is known for doing high level defense, I dont think I need to explain what I am talking about.