I Am Seriously Getting Tired Of Power Creep.

[Xylia]

Totally agree. Better weapons first, stronger enemies second. That's how every DLC system works. And while it's a total "failure and making money from the air", it works not only for money. Just look at the gameplay hour's counter, it's rolling to 3/4 digits because of this.

 

Many MMORPGs use the same model (WoW has been out for, what, 7 years now, lol).

 

FFXI tried to do what the OP is asking Warframe to do, but they started losing subscriptions around the time of Wings of the Goddess.

 

Why? The level cap for 4+ years was still 75, and most equipment coming out was "Meh" because it was all side-grades and years in, crap that was on ridiculously hard to find enemies (that spawned once every several days or somecrap) were still the best weapons and armor in the game.

 

People were quitting and complaining left-and-right, which forced them to release the Abyssea addons that raised the level cap to 99, add better equipment and stronger enemies.

 

A lot of people re-subbed and played more, and there was a lot less complaining about the game being so stagnant.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Xylia

[Noey140]

annnndd people cheating during a event....

[Lumireaver]

Why? The level cap for 4+ years was still 75, and most equipment coming out was "Meh" because it was all side-grades and years in, crap that was on ridiculously hard to find enemies (that spawned once every several days or somecrap) were still the best weapons and armor in the game.

 

It frustrates me when people apply solutions to totally different problems other games had to Warframe.

[R3leaZ]

Many MMORPGs use the same model (WoW has been out for, what, 7 years now, lol).

 

FFXI tried to do what the OP is asking Warframe to do, but they started losing subscriptions around the time of Wings of the Goddess.

 

Why? The level cap for 4+ years was still 75, and most equipment coming out was "Meh" because it was all side-grades and years in, crap that was on ridiculously hard to find enemies (that spawned once every several days or somecrap) were still the best weapons and armor in the game.

 

People were quitting and complaining left-and-right, which forced them to release the Abyssea addons that raised the level cap to 99, add better equipment and stronger enemies.

 

A lot of people re-subbed and played more, and there was a lot less complaining about the game being so stagnant.

 

Funny thing is. If you make a tiering system. Then do it right. There are a lot of weapons of different tiers in this game and guess what. They are for Mastery Rank 0. Sure long time players might have more stuff to play with. But newbies just instantly take the better weapon and lose so many hours of potential gameplay. The way this game's tiering system works is far from good and the way leveling up works also is way too steep: MR7 to MR8 takes forever. If they instead changed all of this and make Mastery Points requirement less so it will be possible to reach for example MR20 with the same amount of Mastery Points requirement we would be able to make a lot of variety in tiering. But currently the variety is very low and you choose for the better weapon.

 

Braton MK1 --> Braton. Both MR0. You barely have to do anything to reach MR1 still they are both MR0

Burston --> Hind. Both MR0

Latron --> Latron Prime. Both MR0

Akbolto --> Dual Gremlins. Both MR0

Etc, etc.

Edited September 3, 2013 by R3leaZ

[SoulEchelon]

Tiers aren't the answer. They're a design shortcut. In an ideal circumstance everything would be useful in some respect. Certain things might complete a task more efficiently than others, but they would do so at some cost.

 

How is it a design shortcut? Look at how many weapons we currently have in the game. The only viable way to make everyone happy with the huge arsenal we currently have is to introduce -both- tiers and sidegrades. Now, if we had a much smaller amount of weaponry and had no mastery levels, then sure - only sidegrades would be fine. But that isn't the case with this game. This isn't your typical "soldier front" style game.

 

Nothing but side-grades makes me go "What's the point?" when yet another weapon gets released that is basically the same thing as we already have.

 

Many players (including myself) want PROGRESSION.

 

I have the Acrid.

 

I want something better than the Acrid, or at least comparable to it, because face it... using the same gun for weeks, months, gets OLD.

 

But yet, if DE took the OP's suggestion, we'd never get another comparable gun to the Acrid, and we'd be forced to, yes, continue using Acrid or Despair.

 

I don't want to be using the same weapons and frames forever. I want new stuff that actually matters. I mean look at the Vasto (and Dual Vastos). Oooo, nice flashy little toys.... that do far less damage than my Acrid. Basically a "level to 30 and let em collect dust" item, like most other guns before them were.

 

And here comes the Strun Wraith.

 

The Strun Wraith actually does enough damage and performs well enough to actually compete with other "top guns", and well, I LOVE IT.

 

I love having something new that is actually GOOD and not a "meh, level to 30 and toss" weapon.

 

Agreed.

[Hayden11121]

Funny thing is. If you make a tiering system. Then do it right. There are a lot of weapons of different tiers in this game and guess what. They are for Mastery Rank 0. Sure long time players might have more stuff to play with. But newbies just instantly take the better weapon and lose so many hours of potential gameplay. The way this game's tiering system works is far from good.

Actually just made a thread about this.

 

You guys should check it out. *shameless plug*

[Xylia]

It frustrates me when people apply solutions to totally different problems other games had to Warframe.

 

We see the exact same thing happening in Warframe, or at least we would if we used the OP's suggestion.

 

The OP is complaining about "Power Creep", where new stuff being released is better than old stuff.

 

If we took the OP's advice, then we'd have nothing but Side-Grades being released, and the game would get stagnant (just like FFXI did) when you'd go weeks, months, maybe years without seeing a "better" weapon than the one you've been using forever.

 

These kinds of games work, because PROGRESSION exists. The idea that you log on, play your character in the hopes of working towards GOALS (which usually involve making your character better, more powerful) doesn't work when there's nothing to strive for.

 

Right now, I have an Acrid.

 

Said Acrid is arguably the current "most powerful weapon" in the game, right beside the Ogris (IMO, it is better than the Ogris since you can't kill yourself with it). What do I have to strive for, once I get Acrid 8x Forma'd with maxed out mods on it?

 

I have all the mods, I just don't have it Forma'd yet. I'm dragging my feet about doing it because I know once I do, I have THE most powerful weapon in the game, capable of laying waste to nearly anything in the game, sans ridiculously overpowered enemies that aren't balanced properly yet.

 

Once I get to that point.... why should I bother continuing to play Warframe when I can't make my character any better?

 

Funny thing is. If you make a tiering system. Then do it right. There are a lot of weapons of different tiers in this game and guess what. They are for Mastery Rank 0. Sure long time players might have more stuff to play with. But newbies just instantly take the better weapon and lose so many hours of potential gameplay. The way this game's tiering system works is far from good.

 

Beta is Beta.

 

Give them time.

 

They said in the previous Livestream they want to do tiers. They haven't implemented it yet (they also spoke of making Mastery mean something).

Edited September 3, 2013 by Xylia

[Scrounge]

If they never release any upgrades for weapons people run out of things to grind for real fast, and grinding is what keeps f2p games alive. 

 

This would be a totally legit complaint in a PVP game where the balance is way more important, but it's really hard to make a case for keeping all guns at an even footing when you are all cooperating, and you can clear all the current content in the game with a Starting frame and starting weapons as long as you juice them up with mods and potatoes.

 

You don't need the best gun. There is no extra reward for "winning" damage done. 

[Hayden11121]

We see the exact same thing happening in Warframe, or at least we would if we used the OP's suggestion.

 

The OP is complaining about "Power Creep", where new stuff being released is better than old stuff.

 

If we took the OP's advice, then we'd have nothing but Side-Grades being released, and the game would get stagnant (just like FFXI did) when you'd go weeks, months, maybe years without seeing a "better" weapon than the one you've been using forever.

 

These kinds of games work, because PROGRESSION exists. The idea that you log on, play your character in the hopes of working towards GOALS (which usually involve making your character better, more powerful) doesn't work when there's nothing to strive for.

 

Right now, I have an Acrid.

 

Said Acrid is arguably the current "most powerful weapon" in the game, right beside the Ogris (IMO, it is better than the Ogris since you can't kill yourself with it). What do I have to strive for, once I get Acrid 8x Forma'd with maxed out mods on it?

 

I have all the mods, I just don't have it Forma'd yet. I'm dragging my feet about doing it because I know once I do, I have THE most powerful weapon in the game, capable of laying waste to nearly anything in the game, sans ridiculously overpowered enemies that aren't balanced properly yet.

 

Once I get to that point.... why should I bother continuing to play Warframe when I can't make my character any better?

That is why you do weapon "tiers" in upgrades

 

You trade effectiveness in one aspect for a flaw in another, and the higher the tier, the better the damage in one source, and the worse in another.

 

Take Boltor for example. Good anywhere, right?

Now take Hikou. Good anywhere, and costly on ammo, pretty costly. But it's AMAZING on Infested!

 

We need tiered systems that are not horizontal upgrades, we need flaws for some aspects and shining areas in another.

[Xylia]

Burston --> Hind. Both MR0

Latron --> Latron Prime. Both MR0

Akbolto --> Dual Gremlins. Both MR0

 

Latron Prime requires Void Runs, not something many MR0 newbies are going to do (in fact, it is impossible to make a Latron Prime without going to at least Void 2).

 

Hind requires 4 Neurodes, you'd easily have Rank2 by the time you got those Neurodes to drop, easy.

 

Dual Gremlins requires you to go to Phobos and kill the Dual Boss. Said Dual Boss is what again, Lv50? Not something an MR0 is going to do unless he gets carried.

 

Now, there is Plat purchases, and yes, those should have MR on them to lock em. But as I said, give em time.

 

Actually, I know for a fact the Miter is XP Locked, I remember seeing that on my Newbie Test. Not sure about the TG.

[Lumireaver]

How is it a design shortcut? Look at how many weapons we currently have in the game. The only viable way to make everyone happy with the huge arsenal we currently have is to introduce -both- tiers and sidegrades. Now, if we had a much smaller amount of weaponry and had no mastery levels, then sure - only sidegrades would be fine. But that isn't the case with this game. This isn't your typical "soldier front" style game.

It's a shortcut because you could either sit their and work out an innovative solution or you could just throw tiers in, invalidating content and effort in the process.

 

"Too many," "too difficult," and my favorite, "the only way," all any of that means is you're not able to resolve it. Don't even think of "your typical 'soldier front' game." Think of Warframe.

 

 

We see the exact same thing happening in Warframe, or at least we would if we used the OP's suggestion.

 

Maybe. It's not a bad idea to look to other games while critically evaluating the problems with Warframe,, but you shouldn't make any judgement based solely what other games are doing.

 

If I weren't busy I'd ramble more about what I think we ought to do.

[Destro6677]

I started a thread asking for it to be a skin or just a bit better than the normal strun without optimization.

Just look at all the responses I got asking for DE to stand their ground.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/101208-de-please-do-not-make-strun-wraith-part-of-a-very-different-set/#entry1156523

Edited September 3, 2013 by Destro6677

[SoulEchelon]

It's a shortcut because you could either sit their and work out an innovative solution or you could just throw tiers in, invalidating content and effort in the process.

 

And what "innovative" solution is that other than completely transforming the game as a whole, thus losing 90% of the population due to the worldwide nerfs and complete transformation of weapons players have already devoted their time to and enjoyed? Sorry but at this point, the best idea is a mix of sidegrades and upgrades, all differentiated by multiple tiers. level 1 = these weapons and their sidegrades. Level 2 = these weapons and their sidegrades. This might not be "innovative"? But guess what? It works. Especially for games with large arsenals.

 

"Too many," "too difficult," and my favorite, "the only way," all any of that means is you're not able to resolve it. Don't even think of "your typical 'soldier front' game." Think of Warframe.

 

I AM thinking of Warframe. But from what you're trying to do, is make every weapon into a flat sidegrade. Though this works in certain FPS shooters that have no "MMO style" levelling tiers, it does NOT work with Warframe.

 

 

Maybe. It's not a bad idea to look to other games while critically evaluating the problems with Warframe,, but you shouldn't make any judgement based solely what other games are doing.

 

If I weren't busy I'd ramble more about what I think we ought to do.

 

Just because I stated one game as an example of what not to do =/= I'm comparing it to Warframe. Yes, Warframe is unique. But Warframe also have a very, very common problem that can be fixed by a simple answer. Hell, DE created the system for this to be in effect - they just haven't fully implemented it. They have with some of the newer weapons, but haven't with the rest.

 

Once again, I don't see a problem -at all- with this system. Where's the downside? You get sidegrades that depend upon your current "level". And once you hit the next "level", you get new and stronger weapons that represent your higher level. You're rewarded for playing the game. What's wrong with that?

[jpvi1207]

they will buff ember........and sadly wraith got nerfed, why couldnt you just continue to whine about the acrid? srsly the powercreep is something but why not make something exclusive to an event WORTH USING

yes it may overpower the other weapons, but hey isnt that how people get even better over time? yeah your hek was awesome, oh look sobek, suddenly not good anymore (that is a situation worth a nerf) but what about the following

potatoed formad braton, cool i kill alot of enemies.......oh hey this weapon is better, nerf it!

 

conclusion: hard to get things/rare things should be worth more than others, and the so called powercreep does not apply when level 200 plus come and attack you (survival/endless defense)

[Xylia]

they will buff ember........and sadly wraith got nerfed, why couldnt you just continue to whine about the acrid? srsly the powercreep is something but why not make something exclusive to an event WORTH USING

yes it may overpower the other weapons, but hey isnt that how people get even better over time? yeah your hek was awesome, oh look sobek, suddenly not good anymore (that is a situation worth a nerf) but what about the following

potatoed formad braton, cool i kill alot of enemies.......oh hey this weapon is better, nerf it!

conclusion: hard to get things/rare things should be worth more than others, and the so called powercreep does not apply when level 200 plus come and attack you (survival/endless defense)

Wraith didn't get nerfed, it got FIXED.

They meant it to be 20% Crit, and somehow it ended up being 50% (which is way too stinking much, seriously now). I like the Wraith but even I knew that it was critting way too often.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Xylia

[jpvi1207]

Wraith didn't get nerfed, it got FIXED.

They meant it to be 20% Crit, and somehow it ended up being 50% (which is way too stinking much, seriously now). I like the Wraith but even I knew that it was critting way too often.

for once we had a viable non sniper weapon for critical build........would have loved it to stay that way...

[Xylia]

for once we had a viable non sniper weapon for critical build........would have loved it to stay that way...

 

Dude, seriously?

 

20% isn't good enough for you? *blinks*

[SoulEchelon]

Wraith didn't get nerfed, it got FIXED.

They meant it to be 20% Crit, and somehow it ended up being 50% (which is way too stinking much, seriously now). I like the Wraith but even I knew that it was critting way too often.

 

Agreed. with shotguns (unless I'm mistaken), the crit is calculated PER PELLET. 50% chance of crit unmodded PER PELLET? ridiculous. 20% is far more balanced.

[Hayden11121]

Dude, seriously?

 

20% isn't good enough for you? *blinks*

20% per pellet?

 

Doesn't hek have a pretty damn good 2.5% per pellet crit chance, and can still be used for crit builds?

[Xylia]

20% per pellet?

 

Doesn't hek have a pretty damn good 2.5% per pellet crit chance, and can still be used for crit builds?

 

Dunno if it is per pellet or overall but yeah, 20% is still 20%.

 

I'm willing to think that it WAS 50% per pellet because every shot pre-hotfix I was seeing 2-3 yellow numbers, every stinking shot.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Xylia

[Lumireaver]

And what "innovative" solution is that other than completely transforming the game as a whole, thus losing 90% of the population due to the worldwide nerfs and complete transformation of weapons players have already devoted their time to and enjoyed? Sorry but at this point, the best idea is a mix of sidegrades and upgrades, all differentiated by multiple tiers. level 1 = these weapons and their sidegrades. Level 2 = these weapons and their sidegrades. This might not be "innovative"? But guess what? It works. Especially for games with large arsenals.

 

Reinventing the wheel works. Just take a look at the pre-U7 mod system. Not that anything that drastic is actually necessary. 

 

Blaming a large arsenal is just a lazy excuse. One particularly easy way I can think of to encourage non-linear progression though an assortment of 'sidegrades' would be to make weapon unlocks tied to a tree. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92292-mastery-rank-accruing-mastery-is-fun-but-not-engaging-enough/'>Elaborated on here.

 

 

Mind you, weapons at the end of the tree would be designed to be more specialized and better at certain things but wouldn't be "better.".

[SoulEchelon]

 

Reinventing the wheel works. Just take a look at the pre-U7 mod system. Not that anything that drastic is actually necessary. 

 

Blaming a large arsenal is just a lazy excuse. One particularly easy way I can think of to encourage non-linear progression though an assortment of 'sidegrades' would be to make weapon unlocks tied to a tree. Elaborated on here.

 

 

Mind you, weapons at the end of the tree would be designed to be more specialized and better at certain things but wouldn't be "better.".

 

The amount of rage this will induce would be noted in internet history. Not only would you be forcing people to go down certain trees, they will eventually run out of mastery points and be unable to enjoy all the weapons. Let's not even mention how long it takes to even gain a mastery level. According to your tree, the vast majority of people will only be able to enjoy a small handful of weapons for -months-. 10 mastery points? There's maybe a select handful of players at Mastery Rank 11.

 

Not only that, new weapons that are introduced would end up being unplayable only to certain individuals since they were lucky enough to go down the correct tree while everyone else didn't. You're restricting people far more with this system than anything else.

 

This "tree" system is highly reminiscent of FireFall. You say not to compare Warframe to other games, but you keep bringing in systems from other games. This would anger and annoy players far more than balance and elongate the game.

[Lumireaver]

The amount of rage this will induce would be noted in internet history. Not only would you be forcing people to go down certain trees, they will eventually run out of mastery points and be unable to enjoy all the weapons.

 

Sounds like bad design.

 

(The idea was that each mastered weapon would give you points individually [probably ten] in addition to contributing to your overall mastery rank.)

[Thelonious]

@OP: get used to it. Most people prefer a futile sense of empowerment, to a balanced, challenging, skill-based game.

 

And it's easier to design. Just add some more of everything and people are happy.

 

It's like asking an advertiser to make an add without appealing to sex, hunger or violence (or any primal instinct): It's healthy, but it won't sell sh't. 

Just the same, thirst for power is a great marketing argument for games.

 

Recently, Guild Wars 2 tried creating an mmo without power creep and gear treadmill. Until they cracked under the pressure of people asking for it.

Crazy stuff. 

 

Truth is, DE makes most of its money by adding new weapons and frames, which means buying additionnal slots, potatoes, formas. They're not gonna stop releasing new, shinier, stronger weapons and frames tomorrow.

That's one of the reason a skin system cannot work with this monetization system: once you create a new weapon model, just adding some stats to it and make it another weapon of its own, is far more profitable than just releasing a skin a few people only will buy (once again, slots, potatoes, formas). Even the platinum price of a weapon is double the price of a skin.

 

And add just a tiny bit more stats to tickle that thirst for power :p

 

That's low, but most f2p survive like that unfortunatly. And people ask for it anyway.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Thelonious

[Lumireaver]

And people ask for it anyway.

 

This part baffles me. Of course it's not unilateral, but even so.

 

Makes me sad Scott won't be at the Livestream tomorrow. I want to know how he designs things.