A Simple Observation On Warframe Ability Scaling And A Suggestion To Fix It

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Warframe powers don't scale well into the lategame in many cases unless they are egregiously OP early on.  Why?  Simply put, mods.  Let's look at weapons, even the lowly rifle mods.  Let's compare Serration to Focus.  Obviously Serration dwarfs Focus.  But let's not forget Serration is multiplicative with Split Chamber, Speed Trigger, crit damage, and elemental damage.  Is it any surprise then that weapons scale so much better?  Sure, you have abilities that benefit from both duration and strength, but even then, they get outclassed by weapon mods by such a wide margin, it's not funny.

 

I've been sitting on the following suggestion for a while, second-guessing it.  It almost seems too simple.  Yet, I haven't really seen anything wrong with it if the numbers were right.  As such, I present it here.

 

What I propose is this: nerf the heck out of all damaging abilities and let Warframes be modded for damage.

 

Changes

1. All damaging abilities have their power cut to 33% of their current strength at all ranks

2. Focus now increases by 15% per level (90% max)

3. Aftershock mod added (see below)

4. Destabilization mod added (see below)

5. Rend mod added (see below)

 

NOTE: all numbers are speculative and likely not balanced.  Convincing arguments regarding balance will result in changes as needed.

 

Aftershock: Causes enemies to be dealt a second dose of damage by Warframe abilities

-Ranks: 0-5

-Weight: 6-11

-Effect: One second after enemies receive damage via a warframe ability, they receive 15/30/45/60/75/90% of the damage they were just dealt as bonus damage (multiplicative with Focus)

 

Destabilization: Whenever enemies are damaged by Warframe abilities, they are opened up for bonus damage from all sources

-Ranks: 0-5

-Weight: 6-11

-Effect: For 5 seconds after receiving damage via an ability, enemies receive 5/10/15/20/25/30% bonus damage from all sources.  Bonus damage is the same element as the ability that triggered the effect.  This effect stacks, though only once per ability cast.

 

Rend: damaging abilities permanently decrease enemy armor

-Ranks: 0-10

-Weight: 6-17

-Effect: Abilities remove X% of an enemy's current armor.  X is determined by 0.5%*(Rank+1)*A.  A is which ability it is that is being used {1,2,3,4}.  This is multiplicative with Focus.  As a result, a [1] can at max level remove 5.5% of an enemy's current armor while a [4] can remove 22% of an enemy's armor.  Armor debuff is applied before damage is applied so that the ability that is triggering the debuff can benefit from the armor shred.

 

 

What would this do?  Well, before heavy modding, warframe abilities will be a lot weaker in terms of damage meaning that early on, they won't be able to mop the floor with everything in sight.  It also means that if you want damage, you're going to have to sacrifice for it in other departments which currently isn't the case.  Obviously all numbers given are subject to balance, but I think they should provide an adequate idea of what I'm going for.

 

Thoughts?

Edited September 7, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Riterew]

Just reading through without crunching the numbers, this sounds like a decent idea.

[Notso]

This is genius. I'll have a think about it later but I can't see any issues off the top of my head.

[BIossome]

This sounds nice and all, but....this is adding 3 mods that would become staples to all mod builds that already have to many staples in them.

Edited September 5, 2013 by BIossome

[Nantlais]

Good idea and I know what you mean, hopefully the new damage overhaul will help balance abilities

[Notso]

Add more tiers to Warframe power mods too. We should be able to "Overcharge" our Radial Javelins as much as our Serrations, I think.

 

 

This sounds nice and all, but....this is adding 3 mods that would become staples to all mod builds that already have to many staples in them.

 

Well the current problem is that for playing competitively novelty mods [such as Loot Radar or Master Thief] aren't worth the trade-off, and that will be the case forever, because when you're trying to reach wave 100 on Xini, Loot Radar is useless, as are Stamina mods etc. because very simply they don't increase your damage or CC output. Adding three more "staple" mods will just force these types of players to make a trade-off somewhere [there are already more "staple" mods than players have space so that's not really an issue]. The clever trick would be to somehow make a trade-off where one isn't better than another [impossible], so instead you create a situation where depending on the situation one setup outshines another [as opposed to the current system where there's basically one be all and end all loadout for each Warframe].

[Volt_Cruelerz]

This sounds nice and all, but....this is adding 3 mods that would become staples to all mod builds that already have to many staples in them.

Which forces choice.  Which is good.

 

 

Add more tiers to Warframe power mods too. We should be able to "Overcharge" our Radial Javelins as much as our Serrations, I think.

 

I've thought about that, but I felt it would take several times more effort in balancing than what I proposed.

[AntLion]

Additional 3 mods... We need more mod slots on our frames then.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Additional 3 mods... We need more mod slots on our frames then.

Why?  By not adding slots, we're forcing choice which means actual personalization and customization rather than just necessarily going for the always best build.

 

We need more "obligatory" mods that you feel you can't live without, not less.  Those are the mods you want on your equipment and the ones that you're going to be willing to make tradeoffs in other regards to get.  That's what we want.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'll bump this once before letting it die if there are no respondents.

[Athros]

+1 and bump.

[rksk16it]

I think abilities should be given a place much like weaons have. Separate mod slots for each ability, just like weapons have. To explain furthur, lemme give example of Nova, on her #1 I want to slot duration since it affects the number of little flying orbs, but I dont want duration on her #4.

 

This way, the OP's suggestion of having many more ability mods will result in even more varied builds. And we can have rank-10 mods for abilities too.

 

Furthur, warframe mod slots can be used for defensive/utility purposes.

[Destro6677]

I can see where the OP is going with this.

 

For example, Ember.

 

Build 1: Burst damage. Rend mod increases fireball and WoF effectiveness.

 

Build 2: DoT damage. Aftershock and destabilization mods paired with continuity and constitution increase duration of overheat and number of ticks of WoF.

 

Flow and Streamline will still be staples of many builds, but his idea allows for tweaks to do burst damage or DoT so that players can choose what they want to do, unleash a huge nuke of death or keep applying status effects infinitely.

[Lumireaver]

Without looking at the poster I read the suggestion, and as I was scrolling down I saw Volt supporting the idea then thought to myself, "It's no surprise that Volt likes the idea. It's a fantastic addition to game balance."

 

Take that however you will. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I can see where the OP is going with this.

 

For example, Ember.

 

Build 1: Burst damage. Rend mod increases fireball and WoF effectiveness.

 

Build 2: DoT damage. Aftershock and destabilization mods paired with continuity and constitution increase duration of overheat and number of ticks of WoF.

 

Flow and Streamline will still be staples of many builds, but his idea allows for tweaks to do burst damage or DoT so that players can choose what they want to do, unleash a huge nuke of death or keep applying status effects infinitely.

Theoretically, you could even go glass cannon and just do tons of damage.  More even than now, but you'll obviously be very squishy and may have to sacrifice in other regards like not using as many abilities or even giving up Flow or Streamline.  You get the picture.  The more "obligatory" mods there are, the more options we have and the more customization we'll see.

 

Without looking at the poster I read the suggestion, and as I was scrolling down I saw Volt supporting the idea then thought to myself, "It's no surprise that Volt likes the idea. It's a fantastic addition to game balance."

 

Take that however you will. 

 

I guess that's a compliment saying I know something about balance?  Thank you.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[merryfistmas]

This is an amazing idea. I always thought weapons being able to be modded for 5000% damage while abilities got 30% damage was ridiculous but never thought of a solution other than nerfing weapon mods into the ground.

[KitMan1973]

This would go perfectly with this: 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103439-numbers-numbers-numbers/

[Volt_Cruelerz]

This would go perfectly with this: 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103439-numbers-numbers-numbers/

Not really seeing the connection there other than both touch on mods.

 

 

This is an amazing idea. I always thought weapons being able to be modded for 5000% damage while abilities got 30% damage was ridiculous but never thought of a solution other than nerfing weapon mods into the ground.

Thank you!

[MageMeat]

Aftershock: V polarity.

Destabilization: - polarity, as it is more expansive than the other two.

Rend: Of course, a V polarity.

I support this idea, as it gives further customization to expand upon Warframe builds with.

[TemetNosce]

I like the idea, but I see some problems with numbers in this. Even with a maxed Focus mod, the upfront damage you're discussing here would only come to 62% of the current damage totals (including total damage from Aftershock in addition to upfront we're still only discussing 119% of current damage) , which are already low enough that many of the offensive abilities in the game aren't valid choices. Further than this, this is basically a binary setup. Build for damage or don't. Yes, you're also offering a debuff option, but that's a separate tactic (which is good thing in that we don't have enough options - you're absolutely right that at present there really isn't much in the way of builds in this game). What I'd suggest here is that first, the reduction in damage be less, the default should be that damage skills do have some valid use. And secondly, I'd suggest letting the damage mods scale much higher, so that there's a choice not merely of whether you want to focus on damage, but how much you're willing to pay for it. There are of course always 'optimal' builds, but when it comes down to deciding whether you want more damage or say Stretch, it becomes a much more interesting choice.

 

Actually on vaguely related topic, I think that if something like this was implemented that the other caster mods should scale further as well. For example, this would open up the possibility of people running debuff builds, carrying mods that create debuffs on hit, and Stretch without carrying damage mods. Or using a high rank Streamline without damage mods to rapidly cast targeted damage for high DPS but low damage per hit.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I like the idea, but I see some problems with numbers in this. Even with a maxed Focus mod, the upfront damage you're discussing here would only come to 62% of the current damage totals (including total damage from Aftershock in addition to upfront we're still only discussing 119% of current damage) , which are already low enough that many of the offensive abilities in the game aren't valid choices. Further than this, this is basically a binary setup. Build for damage or don't. Yes, you're also offering a debuff option, but that's a separate tactic (which is good thing in that we don't have enough options - you're absolutely right that at present there really isn't much in the way of builds in this game). What I'd suggest here is that first, the reduction in damage be less, the default should be that damage skills do have some valid use. And secondly, I'd suggest letting the damage mods scale much higher, so that there's a choice not merely of whether you want to focus on damage, but how much you're willing to pay for it. There are of course always 'optimal' builds, but when it comes down to deciding whether you want more damage or say Stretch, it becomes a much more interesting choice.

 

Actually on vaguely related topic, I think that if something like this was implemented that the other caster mods should scale further as well. For example, this would open up the possibility of people running debuff builds, carrying mods that create debuffs on hit, and Stretch without carrying damage mods. Or using a high rank Streamline without damage mods to rapidly cast targeted damage for high DPS but low damage per hit.

I see what you mean by your concern with a binary setup, but players can build for outright damage if they so choose.  Most damaging abilities in the game are frankly incredibly powerful with no repercussions.  This forces a tradeoff.  Honestly though, I don't think your concern with it being binary needs to be as great as it is.  In a sense, yes, you build for damage or you don't, but you can select what you build for and how much to build for it.  If I wanted my Nova to annihilate everything with 4, I could run...

 

Focus +90%

Aftershock +90%

Destabilization +30%

 

That's 1.9*1.9*1.3 = 469% of the reduced damage or 155% in today's damage.  You can pick any one of those.  You can pick any two.  If you're talking longer-term fighting, you can try out Rend.  Honestly, you could add in more abilities.  Maybe add in one that adds up to 200% shields and 40% ability strength but for a very high mod cost.  Abilities would still be viable as damage sources in many cases.  A 4 frankly hits more targets than clicking does.  True, they won't be doing nearly as much, but they would still be usable (especially if they had some secondary effect).

[Malaheart]

The issue is not totally with warframe powers, it is with how fast weapons scale and in turn how quickly the enemies do.

[Ivalician]

I just want more mods for abilities in general, warframe specific mods would be nice.

 

For example a mod exclusive to Nyx that increases the number of psychic bolts she sends out, 

[Malaheart]

A mod that makes Silence useful...

[Sasquatchias]

A mod that makes Silence useful...

That'll be tough without outright changing the ability.