Looking for a new layer of gameplay customization.

[Rakosta_Kai]

32 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Fair enough, but it still stands. When the question of the premise is flipped back around, he had the same kind of answer he kept accusing me of. That's why I said that as long as he wants to hold on to problems I don't consider to be real, there's not really a way from us (he and I) to discuss the merits of the ideas in the thread.

This is incorrect.

...I actually answered your question.

5 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

But the difference between us is, in this respect, is that I actually can and, in fact, already have.

...I did it in this post.

...I did it in the post you quoted.

...I did it the other thread that got locked.

Can't find it? CTRL F  the word "control".

Whereas it took you 13 pages of posts on 2 separate threads to answer mine.

...Only for you to have to admit that what you've come up with:

• Isn't unique
• Can be added to existing systems

...Making it redundant.

Which, incidentally, is the exact same thing I said to begin with....Go Figure.

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Padre_Akais

[FrostDragoon]

No, you have only asserted those things. There's nothing implicitly true about them, except for it not being entirely unique, which was never a requirement anyway. You've made a non-argument to sound like an argument, and I've rejected your premise because it's irrelevant.

 

Edit

Just in case I'm near clear enough,

Quote

Can be added to existing systems

There's absolutely no reason to assume this is feasible or desirable.

Edited November 3, 2018 by FrostDragoon

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

No, you have only asserted those things. Yes, I did...I only asserted them many times too.

There's nothing implicitly true about them, That's correct...They are obviously true. except for it not being entirely unique,...Or just not unique at all. which was never a requirement anyway.Yes, it is. You've made a non-argument to sound like an argument, I've made an argument sound like an argument and I've rejected your premise because it's irrelevant. You are welcome to reject it...It won't make your idea(or it's premise) any less redundant though.

Ok...First I need you to grab a dictionary and look up the following words:

• Assert
• Implicit
• Requirement
• Feasible
• Desirable

They are all words you've chosen and used correctly in sentences but do not appear to have been used correctly as it relates to conveying yourself.

Unless, of course, you actually intended to pose a mildly harsh reply congratulating me for being right? In which case... Thanks?

So...Look those up. Then, perhaps, my reply will make a bit more sense..

 

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Quote

Can be added to existing systems

There's absolutely no reason to assume this is feasible or desirable.

Actually, there's, at least, a couple of reasons to assume it's both as alternatives go.

1. Those systems already exist= less work ...Feasibility √
2.  Putting it there forces players to choose between it or existing buffs or perks= decisions have weight... Desirability √

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Padre_Akais

[Tsardova]

On 2018-11-02 at 7:13 AM, FrostDragoon said:

Which premise are you questioning? The desire for more build customization and ability to fine tune? I'm not sure why that would even need to be justified given how it fits well within the goals of most other existing systems. I don't see the problem with asking for more options and "toys" to play with. Warframe isn't like a MOBA where balance is in relation to competition, nor is it like single-player games where the balance is there to provide a certain kind of challenge (and most of these only go for "good enough" rather than "perfect balance" anyway). It's more like an MMO where the pattern reads something roughly like: Get stuff, level it up to be stronger, use that stronger stuff to get more stuff to level up, repeat. Challenge has always been a backseat consideration, though one they make some effort to provide, but ultimately the game has succeeded on the back of letting players feel "OP." This is why a small increase in power here or there doesn't really harm the game and in many ways enhances it. Still, I'll address the bolded questions more directly.

1. There is no requirement for the idea to be unique. The question is if it's useful and if people would enjoy it. I believe they would. However, my initial proposal was qualified as "tentative" on purpose, because I'm open to other ideas/suggestions. The whole point of this was just to think about and discuss what would be cool to see added to the game down the road. If people don't want to roll with my suggestion, I'm okay with it. I'm only asking for them to contribute to the discussion instead of simple nay-saying, trolling, derailing, etc.

2. I already touched on this, but I will say that DE has been and is working on more challenging content. That's always been the answer to power creep in MMOs (which this game isn't precisely, but in this area it functionally is). Warframe has been successful because people like to feel OP. Other games are often considered boring because the pursuit of "balance" usually just brings everything down to a dull level.

The first example feels unfair (Company of Heroes 2). The second is the most fun and what Warframe uses. The third is what most competitive games do and why they become boring over time (League of Legends comes to mind).

3. It addresses only two important needs: To keep the game fresh and to provide more customization. I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, but that's why I wanted to have a conversation.

 

A side note to the people still attacking me personally in this thread, please note that I am applying several of the advices given in the last thread and have not attacked anyone in this thread. This thread was meant to loot the body of the last thread for anything of value and leave the horrible garbage on the corpse. I'd appreciate it if you would too. If you don't have anything to add, you don't have to comment. I'm specifically not doing the same things as in the last thread, so please stop with that nonsense.

 

1. Then the addition would likely be forgotten and taken for granted with no lasting impact that it's a redundant addition at best, a waste of resource on DE's part at worst. People already are enjoying what they have, giving them more of the same wouldn't necessarily translate to them enjoying it outright. Don't confuse your own perception/ reality as being guaranteed the same as others.

 

2. ... That's... straight up logical fallacy.... the point wouldn't even be brought up if there isn't a segment of the playerbase that wants said challenge. Why do you think they want said challenge? cause they've had all this power for far too long that adding more would make this segment of player feel disregarded by DE as a whole. And who do you think this segment of player mostly consist of? Those who've stuck with the game for years or have put their time in the more recent timeframe. 

I'm not gonna pretend that I don't like feeling op as heck in this game, but there are times I do want to feel challenged to a certain degree. And fact of the matter is, even arbitration failed to deliver on that just from the sheer amount of power we already have. By disregarding the segment of the group that do want said challenge, you're straight up feigning ignorance just so your idea seem fine without repercussions when it does have quite some of it should the idea be implemented.

 

"Fixing" something that's broken with another broken thing isn't fixing anything.... the problem will only pileup and DE would end up having/ wanting to revise said pile of broken features. I.e. the upcoming melee 3.0. LoL may be boring for you and me, but if it is so on a universal scale then why is it still so populated? why is it still streamed for a far more consistent fanbase than even warframe's? Feigning ignorance on the fact that there IS a segment for the aspects that we are averse to doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

We DO need balance, even if it's a pve game. Without challenge we burn through the game far too quick and things get far too repetitive with little to no gain that the motivation from the antics of being god-like is superficial and ends up being a literal waste of time.

3. It doesn't add anything fresh... even in your 1st point you said it doesn't need to be unique, ergo it doesn't bring anything new to the table. There's already more than enough customization to confuse newer players all the while long time players have all the means to play god. Your idea brings nothing new to the table as adding more numerics doesn't make for a more compelling engagement with enemies.

 

You can keep on arguing that the idea will allow players to make more diverse customization but a lot of players already have a build they're attached to, that they invested so much time in perfecting that it's highly likely they won't diverge from it all too much anyways. I.e. redundancy.

 

4. Who exactly attacked you? Your reactions/ attitude in the previous thread instigated quite a lot of people whereas there wouldn't be a scene if you haven't done so. Calling people as circle-jerking just because they all agree on a mutual point in itself is already you attacking other people so that's a hypocrisy in and of itself.

 

5. Take a good long look at a mirror there mate... You've yet to add anything substantial as a counterargument for the general consensus and the argumentative responses you gave so far has been a repeat of what you've said before which has been disputed with more logically sound arguments by others who have yet to be convinced that this idea of yours is a good addition, if at all.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Tsardova

[FrostDragoon]

Both of these are essentially empty "no u" replies repeating things I've already explained as unconvincing.

* It's not redundant because what I'm asking for isn't in the game. By definition it can't be redundant.

* Adding them to existing systems is liable to create more problems than it solves/avoids. There's a reason arcanes weren't just put into the focus system itself. In fact, DE has shown a pattern of having these systems separate and working on their weaknesses individually as needed: arcanes, melee, focus, archwing, etc. These have all seen reworks (or at least the attempt in the case of archwing). Trying to arbitrarily shoehorn this into those systems doesn't help. At all.

* It doesn't have to be "unique" to be fresh. More customization options are fresh on their own. You can disagree with that, and that's fine, but you haven't made a compelling case against it.

* Already said all there is to say about power creep. It's a non-issue. Repeat yourselves as much as you want, but doesn't change it.

* Most of the rest is just arguing irrelevant things which have nothing to do with this thread and attempting to start more personal beef. /yawn

Any objective outsider who honestly reads to understand what is being suggested instead of just trying to take sides will see this without effort. You guys can't because you're still carrying the baggage from the last thread that I left behind.

[Tsardova]

33 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Both of these are essentially empty "no u" replies repeating things I've already explained as unconvincing.

* It's not redundant because what I'm asking for isn't in the game. By definition it can't be redundant.

* Adding them to existing systems is liable to create more problems than it solves/avoids. There's a reason arcanes weren't just put into the focus system itself. In fact, DE has shown a pattern of having these systems separate and working on their weaknesses individually as needed: arcanes, melee, focus, archwing, etc. These have all seen reworks (or at least the attempt in the case of archwing). Trying to arbitrarily shoehorn this into those systems doesn't help. At all.

* It doesn't have to be "unique" to be fresh. More customization options are fresh on their own. You can disagree with that, and that's fine, but you haven't made a compelling case against it.

* Already said all there is to say about power creep. It's a non-issue. Repeat yourselves as much as you want, but doesn't change it.

* Most of the rest is just arguing irrelevant things which have nothing to do with this thread and attempting to start more personal beef. /yawn

Any objective outsider who honestly reads to understand what is being suggested instead of just trying to take sides will see this without effort. You guys can't because you're still carrying the baggage from the last thread that I left behind.

That's essentially your only argument so far isn't it?.... you don't like the fact that the opposing argument is valid and you just shrug it off. And yet you haven't come up with a valid counterargument on any of it, at all. Some people even expressed their interest in the idea albeit they admitted that it doesn't belong in wf, and you shrug them off regardless even when they're being neutral on the whole idea.

 

That's your problem mate; all your "arguments" rely on feigning ignorance on what other people see as an issue just cause you don't see it as one and that you like your perception of things that you reject all others on a just cause basis.

 

1. It's not in the game cause DE removed a semblance of such system out of acknowledging how it is redundant. Again, Arcane helmets.

2. How have I not made a compelling case against the system not needing to be unique... it's already clear as day from mr fodder weapons and the like that anything that doesn't stand out will be forgotten. This idea of yours only adds minimal numerics while the real applicability of "switching things up" is still just in your dream world. The system needs to be far more fleshed out than simple mod slots in cosmetics like you proposed initially. 

3. Power creep IS an issue. Just cause you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it's universally so. Stop living in your own dream world and acknowledge that this game is played by so many more people than just you. There are people who want a challenge on the long run, there is a segment of such a playerbase; just do a quick search on the forums. Power creep alienates these players and, again for the thrid friggin time, assuming you get what you want with this, what exactly does the idea bring to the table aside from added numerics? You'll end up stumped wanting for more again cause you disregard power creep and you keep on wanting more incessantly.

Just cause it's inevitable doesn't mean it's fine the way it is and feign ignorance. You may be okay with it but evidently there are others who do not.
 

Wake. Up.

 

4. "Most of the rest is just arguing irrelevant things which have nothing to do with this thread and attempting to start more personal beef. /yawn" 

 

"So I come back to two more pages of the same self-congratulatory Jerry circle jerk using points that have already been addressed and shot down. Nice, guys. So original." << your reply from previous thread. 

 

Hypocrisy, google it.

 

We are all objective outsider and we won't be "carrying the baggage from the last thread" if YOU aren't as well.

Trying to act all high and mighty/ condescending only got your thread closed by a mod last time, you really think doing the same would result differently now?

Unless you can actually come up with a good argument, get off your non-existent high horse mate.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Tsardova

[FrostDragoon]

It is invalid. It's as simple as that. You've been trying to talk me out of it on the back of bad propositions and assumptions that I simply do not share. You don't have enough substance to support them, so there's no reason I would change my mind about them. I don't know why that's so hard for you to see, but that's how it is, no matter how you try to frame it.

[FreelancerAgentTexas]

59 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It is invalid. It's as simple as that. You've been trying to talk me out of it on the back of bad propositions and assumptions that I simply do not share. You don't have enough substance to support them, so there's no reason I would change my mind about them. I don't know why that's so hard for you to see, but that's how it is, no matter how you try to frame it.

"Your argument is invalid because I disagree with it."

FTFY.

[Vox_Preliator]

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Both of these are essentially empty "no u" replies repeating things I've already explained as unconvincing.

Wow, it's like the pot calling the kettle black except the kettle is actually like orange or something while the pot is still black.

Because what's going on is almost exactly the opposite of what you just said.

[Tsardova]

6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

It is invalid. It's as simple as that. You've been trying to talk me out of it on the back of bad propositions and assumptions that I simply do not share. You don't have enough substance to support them, so there's no reason I would change my mind about them. I don't know why that's so hard for you to see, but that's how it is, no matter how you try to frame it.

You've been repeating a bad proposition that pretty much 90% of the responders deems so; be it in the previous thread or the new one.

We've placed cases in front of you that has happened in some degree in the game and failed in relation to your idea ergo why it was removed and the logical causality attached to them; that in itself already holds substance yet you refuse to acknowledge it and belittle any counterargument sent your way. 

 

Meanwhile you have not even done so a single time while being objectively open-minded. All you've done has been "I like my idea, if you disagree with it then your opinion is invalid" and pull all these whimsical scenarios where you seem to always be right (yet actual past examples of the game proved otherwise) and everyone is always wrong if they disagree with you. You try to act all high and mighty/ virtuous with the thread starting with "trying to have a civil discussion". Yet you refuse to listen to others' input when they disagree with you. Again,